[wjarmusch]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Aaron, I have known many 17 year olds, and I can't think of one who was ready for marriage. Thats because beneath whatever veneer of maturity, life has not yet given them the experience necessary to take on a good marriage. Furthermore, most 17 year olds are not prepared to provide for a wife and kids.

I genuinely can say that I was one of the more experienced 17 year olds I knew. However, until after I moved out, learned to face life on my own and stand up to hardship without anybody's assistance was I ready truly.

Age does not necessitate maturity will come, but it is a necessary component of maturity.

I can genuinely say that I know 3 girls that I believe would be ready for marriage. I believe it has to do with 3 things:
1. They're homeschooled and have spent a lot of time on housekeeping and practical stuff like that.
2. They all have a ton of younger siblings (like 6)
3. They are the most Godly, mature young women I know.

I truly believe if they found a guy who was mature enough and had the financial means to support a family then they could be married @ 17 or 18.

Now do I truly believe I'm mature enough to get married right now?
I don't think so. Even though I believe I'm more mature than most of the guys I know (all but 2 or 3) I don't think I'd be ready right now. Like I said before I plan to wait untill I finish at least 2 years of my college and go from there.

[heisouronlyhope]

Originally Posted by wjarmusch

This is stemming from the Dating/Courting thread.
I'm 17.....is that too young to start considering getting married?
If it's not, how young is too young?
I think I know many of the answers I will get...but let's discuss it. Why or why not?

I think any ages from 1-16 are too young, I think its okay to date when your 17 and up, but dating earlier then that is way to young.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by wjarmusch

I can genuinely say that I know 3 girls that I believe would be ready for marriage. I believe it has to do with 3 things:
1. They're homeschooled and have spent a lot of time on housekeeping and practical stuff like that.
2. They all have a ton of younger siblings (like 6)
3. They are the most Godly, mature young women I know.

I truly believe if they found a guy who was mature enough and had the financial means to support a family then they could be married @ 17 or 18.

Now do I truly believe I'm mature enough to get married right now?
I don't think so. Even though I believe I'm more mature than most of the guys I know (all but 2 or 3) I don't think I'd be ready right now. Like I said before I plan to wait untill I finish at least 2 years of my college and go from there.

I am talking about girls such as that. I grew up on the fringes of Bill Gothardism and Jonathan Lindvall. I am familiar with home schooling after going through it for 12 years. It does not prepare you for marriage, nor does raising siblings. I got stuck raising my bros when my mom had a break down. It doesn't really help. There is more to life than just raising kids and being home schooled. My concern would be in the emotional and developmental state of the girls you speak of.

[ieatdirt]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

I am talking about girls such as that. I grew up on the fringes of Bill Gothardism and Jonathan Lindvall. I am familiar with home schooling after going through it for 12 years. It does not prepare you for marriage, nor does raising siblings. I got stuck raising my bros when my mom had a break down. It doesn't really help. There is more to life than just raising kids and being home schooled. My concern would be in the emotional and developmental state of the girls you speak of.

This brings to mind a certain homeschooled girl I know. Well, I guess she's not homeschooled anymore, because she graduated, but as far as guys go, she's a 12 year old. I am more ready for marriage than her, and I'm only 16.

As far as housekeeping goes, heck, I could do that.

EDIT: Don't misinterpret that as me saying that I'm ready for marriage.

[Ted Logan]

Originally Posted by passinthru

Yet Aaron looking back who I was at 17 and who I am now are two very different people. If I had gotten married at 17, the relationship couldn't have lasted. I was too messed up as were many of the people that I knew then. I'm 23 now and while there's still things to work on and grow in, I'm at a place where I am in a serious relationship and ready to start to seriously consider marriage.

Honestly, I understand why you say this. My wife and I have both said that we were not ready for marriage before we were 23 or so. So maybe we weren't ready at 19, but maybe we weren't ready when we got married at 25. People are notoriously bad at evaluating their own suitedness for something they want. Perhaps we weren't ready for our daughter when she arrived. Honestly, I doubt there are many people that are ever ready for marriage or parenthood when it happens. I certainly know that being a father has been one of the biggest things to help me be ready to be a father.

As for saying that your marriage wouldn't have lasted if you'd been married at 17, I think that's secular humanism talking rather than grace. I am convinced that the work of the Lord in my life is literally infinitely more important to the health of my marriage than my own work. We have this American notion that making a marriage "work" is a result of "hard work," and to a degree, I think that's a good description of what appears to be going on, but I don't think it's nearly deep enough. Two people, regardless of whether they're believers or not, might be able to make a marriage "work." But I think this may be a false model for marriage that contributes to marriage failure rather than marriage success. Perhaps a truly blessed union is marked more by devotion and grace than compromise and "hard work," and if so, I know plenty of 17 and 18 year olds who are "ready" for marriage, if that's even an applicable term.

Perhaps this is an overly romantic view of marriage, and I'm willing to accept that possibility. However, that doesn't make the "hard work and compromise" model the valid one. I think the very idea of making a marriage "work" betrays certain assumptions that should be challenged.

Originally Posted by Grasshopper359

I don't think that late marriage has anything to do with late maturity, Aaron. I think late maturity has more to do with the fact that since the early 1990s, we've become more entertainment-focused as a society. So much so that people from my generation (I'm 26 in four weeks) and younger generally just want to sit around, watch TV, play video games and go to the movies. We've been entertained all our lives, and so we just want to be entertained more. In addition to that, people graduate high school, then go to university, because, at least when I was in school, the theory was that if you want to make something of yourself, you have to get a degree. And when they're done, they move back in with their parents until they pay off the school debts that they accumulated during their three or four years of university. So they're 25 years old, still living at home, they haven't had full-time a job yet and haven't really had to shoulder any responsibility for their lives.

You don’t think that the two are connected, but in actuality, some of the studies I have heard of have pinpointed exactly this as one of the items that makes a person an “adult”—they are financially independent and begin a household of their own. Late marriage is actually one of the things that sociologists use to determine the terminus of adolescence. Now, they could be wrong (it’s so arbitrary), but the point is that the two are perceived as connected by others. Now, I do agree that our culture is over-entertained, but the fact is that this just means they’re able to use new ways to indulge impulses that humans have always had. We’re an addictive society because we’re a population of sinners. The fact that there are more ways to be addicted doesn’t change much. The baby boomer generation is just as addicted, but they sit in front of the TV for hours a night instead of spending it on the internet or playing games. How many fifty- and sixty-somethings watch hours of football every Sunday and Monday, and the entire lineup on CBS on Tuesdays? I am not convinced that the current coming-of-age generation is as different as some people are claiming.

As for the extended educational system, I’m still not convinced. If anything, I think parents paying for their kids’ university delays maturity more than going to university. It adds to the sense of entitlement, and I think you might have the crux of the entire problem when you get to that point.

Marriage isn't the only way to learn to be an adult. Plenty of people learn to be adults without getting married. I'd argue exactly what you don't believe is a valid claim - that people should have a grasp on adulthood before they think about getting married, which generally speaking, does come with age, but more specifically, with life experience. As a person begins to take responsibility for their life and the learn to manage the outcomes of their choices, they mature, because ultimately, that's what maturity is. And through a combination of factors, our society has delayed the point at which that generally happens.

I’m not saying that marriage is the only (or perhaps even the best) way to learn to be an adult. What I’m saying is that young marriage may facilitate learning to be adults together, and I’m using the word “together” to indicate not just proximity, but integration. As for “having a grasp on adulthood,” you say it comes with “life experience.” Certainly the experience of being married is “life experience.” Why don’t people need a grasp on adulthood before buying a house, or joining the army? It’s the choices we make that make us adults, or force us to become adults. If we have to wait to be adults until we’re adults, we never get there.

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Aaron, I have known many 17 year olds, and I can't think of one who was ready for marriage. Thats because beneath whatever veneer of maturity, life has not yet given them the experience necessary to take on a good marriage. Furthermore, most 17 year olds are not prepared to provide for a wife and kids.

Perhaps you’re using the wrong criteria.

As for providing for a wife and kids, I know plenty of folks who have gotten married right out of high school or even a few years later with no degree. They provide for their kids. It’s hard, and they never have any spending money, but so what? They’re by no means good “American consumers,” but they love the Lord and in many cases, they’re providing much more of what their kids need than the 30-something college grads I know. Do the kids always have the newest clothes? No. Do they have televisions in their bedrooms? No. They take walks to the park, and they play games with their parents, and they read books from the library. The point is that you can “provide” for a family with a much lower income than most people think. Is it easy? Of course not, and probably most of the people I know in this situation would gladly accept a step up in income. We’ve convinced our children that they need to make $30,000 a year to survive, and $60,000 to live comfortably, and that’s just a bald-faced lie.

I genuinely can say that I was one of the more experienced 17 year olds I knew. However, until after I moved out, learned to face life on my own and stand up to hardship without anybody's assistance was I ready truly.

Again, Bill, I’m not saying that you were ready without knowing it, but I’m also not convinced that any of us is as ready as we think we are for any major life change. And knowing the little I do about your life, I wonder if perhaps your experience made it more difficult for you. Please don’t take that as an insult or a slight—I don’t know whether it did or not, and I wouldn’t claim to know, but I never claimed the criterion of “experience” as something that made people “ready” for marriage, and I am quite sure that certain types of experience make things more difficult rather than easier.

Age does not necessitate maturity will come, but it is a necessary component of maturity.

Well, if age is necessary for maturity, and my grandmother was “ready” for marriage at 14 (or was it 16? I don’t remember), then either something has changed biologically in the last hundred years or 14 is a sufficient biological age, and thus that component is made moot, and we’ll have to talk about other factors.

[wjarmusch]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

I am talking about girls such as that. I grew up on the fringes of Bill Gothardism and Jonathan Lindvall. I am familiar with home schooling after going through it for 12 years. It does not prepare you for marriage, nor does raising siblings. I got stuck raising my bros when my mom had a break down. It doesn't really help. There is more to life than just raising kids and being home schooled. My concern would be in the emotional and developmental state of the girls you speak of.

They're way more mature than I am, and stronger Christians than I am as well.

But don't try to tell you that having younger siblings doesn't help prepare you for raising kids. How wouldn't it? Having responsibilities in your own home seems like it would prepare you for living on your own or with another a whole lot more then sitting at home playing video games.

Aaron Adams said: Perhaps a truly blessed union is marked more by devotion and grace than compromise and "hard work," and if so, I know plenty of 17 and 18 year olds who are "ready" for marriage, if that's even an applicable term.

YES, YES, YES, That's exactly what I was thinking, you explained it so well.

Aaron Adams said:They’re by no means good “American consumers,” but they love the Lord and in many cases, they’re providing much more of what their kids need than the 30-something college grads I know. Do the kids always have the newest clothes? No. Do they have televisions in their bedrooms? No. They take walks to the park, and they play games with their parents, and they read books from the library. The point is that you can “provide” for a family with a much lower income than most people think

Thank you, again that's exactly what I was going to say next.

[War of Saints]

Originally Posted by Aaron Adams

People are notoriously bad at evaluating their own suitedness for something they want.

I completely agree with what Aaron is saying. And I also have something else to add:

Human beings in general have the unfortunate habit of wanting exactly that which is at the time worst for them.

This habit can be curbed, of course, with the grace of God, but in general, I have found it to be true.

But that's just me.



And as for marriage, I myself am 17, and I can tell you right now that I'm not ready. I might like to think I am, but then, don't we all?

[Ted Logan]

And again, I'm not saying that all, most, or even a significant portion of 17 year olds are "ready" for marriage; I'd like to bring into view the very assumptions that make the question possible.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by Aaron Adams

Perhaps you’re using the wrong criteria.

Being able to provide food clothes and shelter and actually see each other is bad criteria?

As for providing for a wife and kids, I know plenty of folks who have gotten married right out of high school or even a few years later with no degree. They provide for their kids. It’s hard, and they never have any spending money, but so what?

Generally by the time they are 50 they reach a crisis of where their body can no longer perform their job. Its why my grandfather worked as a mechanic into his late 80's. His body is thrashed, but he had to keep going. Did he enjoy time with his wife and kids? Not really. Was he a good consumer? not really. He eeked by, and had no time for what you describe, just to survive.

They’re by no means good “American consumers,” but they love the Lord and in many cases, they’re providing much more of what their kids need than the 30-something college grads I know. Do the kids always have the newest clothes? No. Do they have televisions in their bedrooms? No. They take walks to the park, and they play games with their parents, and they read books from the library. The point is that you can “provide” for a family with a much lower income than most people think.

But when you can't, the kids suffer. I was providing food for my family by 15 because my dads job didn't cover the bills. (granted that was parentally self inflicted) However, a lot of my friends were in the same boat. As in having to work a couple jobs to eat while in high school. Poverty does not do well for your family life. You never see each other! maybe you assume I use higher criteria than I do. I

We’ve convinced our children that they need to make $30,000 a year to survive, and $60,000 to live comfortably, and that’s just a bald-faced lie.

depending on where you live and if you plan to retire when your body gives out.

Again, Bill, I’m not saying that you were ready without knowing it, but I’m also not convinced that any of us is as ready as we think we are for any major life change.

My premise is that we always overestimate our maturity.

And knowing the little I do about your life, I wonder if perhaps your experience made it more difficult for you.

The fact that I was entitled for nothing, I got nothing and have had to earn everything by hard work? Or maybe the fact that I never had time to let games and tv into my life until I was 20+ (in extreme moderation) By rights of what you have said, I should have been one of the most mature teens you could have met. However, I know now I was not ready.

Please don’t take that as an insult or a slight—I don’t know whether it did or not, and I wouldn’t claim to know, but I never claimed the criterion of “experience” as something that made people “ready” for marriage, and I am quite sure that certain types of experience make things more difficult rather than easier.

Oddly enough, when things get hard in marriage I can just tighten the belt and move on without a problem. It hasn't made things more difficult but in adversity, you have to come to peace with the past. However, most 17 year olds are not having that struggle.

[jael>rock<]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by J_freek

Okay, so maybe I worded that wrong.

My parents are wanting me look for values in a guy. What not to have and what to have when I marry someone.

i understand what you meant and agree. if you don't think about what you're going to want in someone, then you won't know when you get to the point where you start dating.

I have no current desire to go into the Courtship/Dating, but my parents view (as well as I understand, as we don't really discuss it alot) is that I spent no time alone with a guy until marriage. Just spend time with each other's family, or have a chaperoned outing.

can you go out together in a public place? i can understand not going somewhere where no one is around, but i don't know about no time away from the family at all.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by jael>rock<

can you go out together in a public place? i can understand not going somewhere where no one is around, but i don't know about no time away from the family at all.

Indeed. When you're young and poor, just meeting at [insert local coffee shop here] and talking can be a great way to pass time and get to talk about things in an otherwise neutral environment.

[ieatdirt]

Originally Posted by thesteve

Indeed. When you're young and poor, just meeting at [insert local coffee shop here] and talking can be a great way to pass time and get to talk about things in an otherwise neutral environment.

It's great fun, too.

[J_freek]

[QUOTE=jael>rock<;2714925]

i understand what you meant and agree. if you don't think about what you're going to want in someone, then you won't know when you get to the point where you start dating.
can you go out together in a public place? i can understand not going somewhere where no one is around, but i don't know about no time away from the family at all.

I'm not sure. All the guys I knew, knew where my parents stood. And I think the only guy who might've ever asked me out, wasn't allowed to date either.
Oh, and I'm pretty guylike, so guys pretty much stand back.

Originally Posted by thesteve

Indeed. When you're young and poor, just meeting at [insert local coffee shop here] and talking can be a great way to pass time and get to talk about things in an otherwise neutral environment.

That is a great idea, one I'd never thought off. I'll keep that in mind, for one day.
My parents might agree to something like that.
But we usually shy away from these kinda topics. I guess I'm too embarressed and want to put it off until something has to be done.

[jael>rock<]

[QUOTE=J_freek;2715002]

Originally Posted by jael>rock<

I'm not sure. All the guys I knew, knew where my parents stood. And I think the only guy who might've ever asked me out, wasn't allowed to date either.
Oh, and I'm pretty guylike, so guys pretty much stand back.



That is a great idea, one I'd never thought off. I'll keep that in mind, for one day.
My parents might agree to something like that.
But we usually shy away from these kinda topics. I guess I'm too embarressed and want to put it off until something has to be done.

maybe you should ask them. i have discussions with my mom sometimes about what would happen if a guy asked me out, or what's going to happen when i go to college and such. it's good to know where each other stands on things.

yeah, coffee shops are a fun place. or you can go for walks in the park (playing on the kids stuff is always fun ), go to a movie, go bowling, go-cart racing, . . . . the list goes on and on. there's a lot of fun stuff that you can do.

[passinthru]

Originally Posted by Aaron Adams

Honestly, I understand why you say this. My wife and I have both said that we were not ready for marriage before we were 23 or so. So maybe we weren't ready at 19, but maybe we weren't ready when we got married at 25. People are notoriously bad at evaluating their own suitedness for something they want. Perhaps we weren't ready for our daughter when she arrived. Honestly, I doubt there are many people that are ever ready for marriage or parenthood when it happens. I certainly know that being a father has been one of the biggest things to help me be ready to be a father.

Aaron I have good reason to state that I wasn't ready at 17. I was in an abusive relationship, very suicidal, and doing pharmaceutical drugs to get through my days.

There are many unforeseen preparations for marriage or parenthood that you learn on the fly together. I do not believe that basic maturity (taking responsibility for your own actions, day to day care of a home, thinking of someone other than yourself) are things that a 17 year old has yet. Their world tends to consist of themselves; their needs, their desires, and their goals.

As for saying that your marriage wouldn't have lasted if you'd been married at 17, I think that's secular humanism talking rather than grace. I am convinced that the work of the Lord in my life is literally infinitely more important to the health of my marriage than my own work. We have this American notion that making a marriage "work" is a result of "hard work," and to a degree, I think that's a good description of what appears to be going on, but I don't think it's nearly deep enough. Two people, regardless of whether they're believers or not, might be able to make a marriage "work." But I think this may be a false model for marriage that contributes to marriage failure rather than marriage success. Perhaps a truly blessed union is marked more by devotion and grace than compromise and "hard work," and if so, I know plenty of 17 and 18 year olds who are "ready" for marriage, if that's even an applicable term.

Perhaps this is an overly romantic view of marriage, and I'm willing to accept that possibility. However, that doesn't make the "hard work and compromise" model the valid one. I think the very idea of making a marriage "work" betrays certain assumptions that should be challenged.

I don't think I've used the phrase of making a marriage 'work', however if I have let me explain what I mean.

Keep in mind that I am still single and that the primary marriage relationship I saw throughout my life was a dysfunctional one. (that's my disclaimer and I'm sticking to it)

Marriage isn't about compromise, it's about selfless love. It's about putting his needs, wants, desires above my own. It's turning to him for spiritual guidance and leadership, knowing that he loves me and hears what I have to request. is that work? Some days absolutely. It's not easy for me to die to what I want sometimes.

As for the extended educational system, I’m still not convinced. If anything, I think parents paying for their kids’ university delays maturity more than going to university. It adds to the sense of entitlement, and I think you might have the crux of the entire problem when you get to that point.

that may very well be an entirely separate discussion worth pursuing at some point in time.

I’m not saying that marriage is the only (or perhaps even the best) way to learn to be an adult. What I’m saying is that young marriage may facilitate learning to be adults together, and I’m using the word “together” to indicate not just proximity, but integration. As for “having a grasp on adulthood,” you say it comes with “life experience.” Certainly the experience of being married is “life experience.” Why don’t people need a grasp on adulthood before buying a house, or joining the army? It’s the choices we make that make us adults, or force us to become adults. If we have to wait to be adults until we’re adults, we never get there.

If marriage is for life though (and I hold that to be true) then if you have one who matures faster in the relationship than the other does, you have one adult who is in essence married to a child. You cannot make the assumption that the one who is still a child will mature into adult status.

I think people do need a grasp on the responsibility of buying a house before they do so. In terms of joining the army? I'm not going to get into that one. Teens with weapons *shudders*

As for providing for a wife and kids, I know plenty of folks who have gotten married right out of high school or even a few years later with no degree. They provide for their kids. It’s hard, and they never have any spending money, but so what? They’re by no means good “American consumers,” but they love the Lord and in many cases, they’re providing much more of what their kids need than the 30-something college grads I know. Do the kids always have the newest clothes? No. Do they have televisions in their bedrooms? No. They take walks to the park, and they play games with their parents, and they read books from the library. The point is that you can “provide” for a family with a much lower income than most people think. Is it easy? Of course not, and probably most of the people I know in this situation would gladly accept a step up in income. We’ve convinced our children that they need to make $30,000 a year to survive, and $60,000 to live comfortably, and that’s just a bald-faced lie.

I grew up in a one income family. We did without much of the time. It meant simple meals, hand me down clothes, and second hand cars. There was no TV, no computer, we didn't have a touch tone phone because it was an extra $2 a month for that. However, if you spend all your time working and come home exhausted - what message does that send to your family?

Well, if age is necessary for maturity, and my grandmother was “ready” for marriage at 14 (or was it 16? I don’t remember), then either something has changed biologically in the last hundred years or 14 is a sufficient biological age, and thus that component is made moot, and we’ll have to talk about other factors.

It's the other factors in my opinion.

Originally Posted by wjarmusch

But don't try to tell you that having younger siblings doesn't help prepare you for raising kids. How wouldn't it? Having responsibilities in your own home seems like it would prepare you for living on your own or with another a whole lot more then sitting at home playing video games.

As the second oldest of five, I can speak to this quite well. It helps to prepare you, but you are not the primary care giver. So you know how to change a dipper, feed a child a bottle, change them, bathe them, play with them - but you are not the one who is up with them at 3 am. You are not the one who is exhausted from caring for the baby all day and still has to put a meal on the table.

Having responsibilities around the house doesn't make you responsible once you are out on your own. I grew up doing the dishes every night and cooking two nights a week. I've lived on my own now for 7 1/2 months. I cook a couple nights a week, the rest of the time it's just easy make a sandwich or reheat something. Dishes? um...yeah...I don't have a clean dish in the house right now.

Originally Posted by Aaron Adams

And again, I'm not saying that all, most, or even a significant portion of 17 year olds are "ready" for marriage; I'd like to bring into view the very assumptions that make the question possible.

I don't mind that. However, it isn't necessarily an assumption. Personally I have thought this through.

Originally Posted by J_freek

That is a great idea, one I'd never thought off. I'll keep that in mind, for one day.
My parents might agree to something like that.
But we usually shy away from these kinda topics. I guess I'm too embarressed and want to put it off until something has to be done.

As embarrassing as it may feel right now, I would recommend that you do discuss it with them now so that their expectations are clear to both sides. Soon enough a guy will come along that you are interested in and knowing what is allowable and what their process is will make things easier for you and for him.