[Rainer.]

To a point, I think if two people really wanted to have sex, there probably isn't much that could stop it from happening.

I'm inclined to agree with Kate on this. I'd say it'd be pretty difficult for a couple in a serious relationship to never be alone.

[passinthru]

Originally Posted by J_freek

I went to a church that believed that. No matter how old.
But here's something. Just because you aren't "mature" enough to handle things on you own, how do you know that you can keep yourself in line?
I mean, I really question myself and worry too.
There was this guy, and after only seeing him for several minutes, he wanted to have sex with me, I mean, I was scared, and frightened. But I kinda liked the attention. We were with a group, and my uncle (same one who's getting married) was there and wouldn't let me leave with him.
And...though I was freeked out, I loved the attention. Which makes me worry. If I let him play with my hair and stuff, after only seeing him for less than an hour the first time, what would I do with someone I know?

Wow. Okay I really can't comment on the church thing without getting way out of line.

If you aren't 'mature' enough to handle things on your own, then are you really ready for a serious relationship?

i haven't met a girl yet who doesn't like to be seen as attractive or desirable. It's about what you really value. Being able to tell your husband (or wife) that he(she) is the first person you have been intimate with is a priceless gift.

It is true though. If he treats them harsh, how will he get one day with you?

It isn't true. My b/f treats me differently than how he treats his mom and sis. I treat him very differently from how I treat my father.

Originally Posted by Rainer.

To a point, I think if two people really wanted to have sex, there probably isn't much that could stop it from happening.

you would be right.

I'm inclined to agree with Kate on this. I'd say it'd be pretty difficult for a couple in a serious relationship to never be alone.

frankly I don't think that it's healthy as you'll be spending the rest of your lives together and your parents won't be there to chaperone you.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by wjarmusch

Ya, we've been having that discussion in the other thread for quite a while.
J_Freek, I know what you're saying your parents are suggesting you to do. Makes sense to me.

So in summary most people believe that 17 is too young to get married.
I probably agree, but for me around 18 it seems like you could be getting close to seriously thinking about it.

Spoken by someone who clearly has not been living alone. The glibness you approach marriage with shows you don't understand the gravity of marriage. Its really disturbing. It is setting you up for divorce quite bluntly, because a rash decision about marriage sticks with you. It shows an immaturity.

Around 18, you still have a heck of a lot of growing up to do. You change a lot. at 18, I was training to be a Marine sniper. I spent hours on the range. I fought, I trained. Now, however, I am a pacifist. Time and circumstance and scripture have changed my view. Thats only one of hundreds of issues. I am not the same person I was at 18. Not even recognizable.

Originally Posted by J_freek

My uncle (jfreek4life) is 19, and he's going to propose to his girlfriend. Though they aren't planning on getting married for several years

Waiting years to get married after being engaged is torture. Its not smart. It is foolhardy. I did it. Now I can speak of the pain and suffering that causes, and I would counsel anyone in that position to evaluate why they are not getting married and to take a long hard look at their priorities.

Originally Posted by J_freek

It is true though. If he treats them harsh, how will he get one day with you?

I treat my mother quite harsh. I need to otherwise she rides roughshod over everyone. Now I treat my wife with intense gentleness. I would not dare treat her the same way I treat my mother or brothers. We have a long history on which behaviors are built. It is not true. Unlike what you state, saying it does not make it so.

Originally Posted by J_freek

I went to a church that believed that. No matter how old.
But here's something. Just because you aren't "mature" enough to handle things on you own, how do you know that you can keep yourself in line?
I mean, I really question myself and worry too.
There was this guy, and after only seeing him for several minutes, he wanted to have sex with me, I mean, I was scared, and frightened. But I kinda liked the attention. We were with a group, and my uncle (same one who's getting married) was there and wouldn't let me leave with him.
And...though I was freeked out, I loved the attention. Which makes me worry. If I let him play with my hair and stuff, after only seeing him for less than an hour the first time, what would I do with someone I know?

This is an extreme reason to believe you do not have the self-control to be in a serious relationship. Temptation does not cease because you get married. because you have not developed the moral character necessary for any form of romantic relationship, does not mean dating or courting is a good idea. Some of the strictest parents I ever knew had kids who courted and supposedly were never out of parental view, but she was 8.5 months pregnant at the wedding. The old saying, where there is a will, there is a way, is true.

[ieatdirt]

Originally Posted by passinthru

If you are still young enough to need to be supervised/babysat are you really ready for a serious relationship?

Well, no. I don't need to be babysat, but generally my girlfriend and I aren't allowed to be really alone, even though our parents trust us. It helps to keep us accountable.

[wjarmusch]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Spoken by someone who clearly has not been living alone. The glibness you approach marriage with shows you don't understand the gravity of marriage. Its really disturbing. It is setting you up for divorce quite bluntly, because a rash decision about marriage sticks with you. It shows an immaturity.

I've already stated yes, I am not living alone.
You're saying because I made a simple statement summing up what I was interpreting people to be saying and adding my idea onto it you're saying I'm immature. It's setting me up for divorce? WOW. I don't even know how I should respond to that. Just because I made a simple statement that didn't seem to be putting much thought into it doesn't mean I haven't thought about it. I'm not putting it off as a simple thing. Again, you really don't know me very well, and you're telling me multiple times that if I don't change my life is going to be horrible.

Around 18, you still have a heck of a lot of growing up to do. You change a lot. at 18, I was training to be a Marine sniper. I spent hours on the range. I fought, I trained. Now, however, I am a pacifist. Time and circumstance and scripture have changed my view. Thats only one of hundreds of issues. I am not the same person I was at 18. Not even recognizable.

Just because you changed a lot after 18 doesn't mean everyone will. But most people do...and can't you and your wife change together? Together you can mature and become better people.

Waiting years to get married after being engaged is torture. Its not smart. It is foolhardy. I did it. Now I can speak of the pain and suffering that causes, and I would counsel anyone in that position to evaluate why they are not getting married and to take a long hard look at their priorities.

I totally agree with you there.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by ieatdirt

Well, no. I don't need to be babysat, but generally my girlfriend and I aren't allowed to be really alone, even though our parents trust us. It helps to keep us accountable.

Why not hold each other accountable? Why not be accountable to your parents without them actually being there? Why not be accountable to your pastor instead of your parents?

I understand the whole argument of "you see how she'll treat you by the way she treats her dad' etc. etc., but the reality is that you can see that without being around her parents every time you see each other. I'm fairly certain that if I had to go through almost two years of dating both my fiancee and her parents, that we would not be getting married. There are sometimes alot of things about a person you can learn from how they treat their family, but there's also TONS of things you can learn from them one-on-one that you'd never learn if you were always with their family.

As far as age goes...I know in high school I was developing a sense of what I wanted in a wife, but the woman I'm marrying I did not start dating until I was 21...even though we met when I was 19. Those two years were spent blissfully unaware of what God had planned for us. I actually spent my first three years of college fumbling through a a dating relationship here and there. I can honestly say that I did date with the perspective of, "I can see myself marrying this person," but not with one of "I am going to marry this person."

I really can't imagine at 17 or 18 being in a relationship where from the get go I already was thinking that this person was solidly the person I would marry. I'm sure there's a certain small percentage of the world that ends up marrying their high-school sweetheart, but the reality is that I believe that this is so small that it would be better to error on the side of caution and maintain a mental distance than it would be to seriously consider marriage at such a young age. IMO, getting married at an age so young, with so little life experience is akin to giving a person their driver license because they took drivers education and passed the written portion of the drivers' exam. You might have a very vague sense of what you're doing but in no means really ready to have that sort of responsibility. I'm not even arguing that you should have lived on your own before getting married, just that you should have at least made a couple life-decisions before doing so.

[ieatdirt]

Originally Posted by thesteve

Why not hold each other accountable? Why not be accountable to your parents without them actually being there? Why not be accountable to your pastor instead of your parents?

Well, maybe accountable's not the right word to use, but I don't think it would be a good idea to always be alone. Also, me and my girlfriend aren't quite old enough to be in a serious relationship, so being together alone too much might lead to us being too close.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by ieatdirt

Well, maybe accountable's not the right word to use, but I don't think it would be a good idea to always be alone. Also, me and my girlfriend aren't quite old enough to be in a serious relationship, so being together alone too much might lead to us being too close.

So really it sounds like you're in a developmental relationship, where the important really important thing isn't so much developing a relationship with your girlfriend but just figuring out who you are as a person and what type of person you'd want to spend the rest of your life with this very well could be your girlfriend, but to approach it from this angle (that she is the one) early on is dangerous.

I'm certainly not advocating that you always be alone, simply that when you are in a serious relationship you definitely should have some level of alone time to be with each other and share thoughts and emotions and just be honest with each other.

[ieatdirt]

Originally Posted by thesteve

So really it sounds like you're in a developmental relationship, where the important really important thing isn't so much developing a relationship with your girlfriend but just figuring out who you are as a person and what type of person you'd want to spend the rest of your life with this very well could be your girlfriend, but to approach it from this angle (that she is the one) early on is dangerous.

I'm certainly not advocating that you always be alone, simply that when you are in a serious relationship you definitely should have some level of alone time to be with each other and share thoughts and emotions and just be honest with each other.

Well, we are more so being careful. I would definitely like to marry her later on, I mean, who wants to go through breaking up? But we want to be good and sure that we are right for each other, so we are trying to not let it become to serious before we're ready.

Yes, I completely agree with that, Steve.

[Ted Logan]

Most people wait till at least 25 to get married these days, and most of those marriages end in divorce. There is no magic age when people become grown up, and I think that late marriage is one reason people seem to stay immature for longer. People seem to think, "Now that people are still immature at 25, they should wait till they're 25 to get married." But I'm not convinced that this is a valid claim. It's not working. At least at age 17, the two people can learn to be adults together; my (limited) experience is that people who marry older tend to have more inflexibilities with regards to secondary things.

My claim is that there are many people in the United States who are ready for marriage at age 17. In fact, I think that the number ready at 17 is probably not that much smaller than those ready at 25. I'd say the number one most important thing for anyone considering marriage is that they love the Lord.

[wjarmusch]

Originally Posted by Aaron Adams

Most people wait till at least 25 to get married these days, and most of those marriages end in divorce. There is no magic age when people become grown up, and I think that late marriage is one reason people seem to stay immature for longer. People seem to think, "Now that people are still immature at 25, they should wait till they're 25 to get married." But I'm not convinced that this is a valid claim. It's not working. At least at age 17, the two people can learn to be adults together; my (limited) experience is that people who marry older tend to have more inflexibilities with regards to secondary things.

My claim is that there are many people in the United States who are ready for marriage at age 17. In fact, I think that the number ready at 17 is probably not that much smaller than those ready at 25. I'd say the number one most important thing for anyone considering marriage is that they love the Lord.

Those are some interesting points. I think I agree with most of them.

What I bolded is what I agree with most. The relationship has to be centered around Christ #1. Then you both need to feel it's his will & timing.

[passinthru]

Yet Aaron looking back who I was at 17 and who I am now are two very different people. If I had gotten married at 17, the relationship couldn't have lasted. I was too messed up as were many of the people that I knew then. I'm 23 now and while there's still things to work on and grow in, I'm at a place where I am in a serious relationship and ready to start to seriously consider marriage.

[J_freek]

I definately think that accountability helps.
At this point, I'm not sure exactly what I believe, but for right now, I'm sticking with my parents, which is what I'll have to abide by for at least another 2 years.
Definately where there is a will, there is a way.
I've always gotten a long better with guys than girls, and have always been viewed more as a "buddy" than a girl. I did everything from working with my dad's hired hands on our farm to playing hockey instead of babysitting the little kids with the rest of the girls. So, it's never been a major issue, until that happened (with that one guy) in April. That really got me thinking, and actually got me quite scared.
Especially when a person is my age, I think being overly cautious is okay.
However, it never hurts to be on the look out for what one values in a guy/girl.

[Grasshopper359]

I don't think that late marriage has anything to do with late maturity, Aaron. I think late maturity has more to do with the fact that since the early 1990s, we've become more entertainment-focused as a society. So much so that people from my generation (I'm 26 in four weeks) and younger generally just want to sit around, watch TV, play video games and go to the movies. We've been entertained all our lives, and so we just want to be entertained more. In addition to that, people graduate high school, then go to university, because, at least when I was in school, the theory was that if you want to make something of yourself, you have to get a degree. And when they're done, they move back in with their parents until they pay off the school debts that they accumulated during their three or four years of university. So they're 25 years old, still living at home, they haven't had full-time a job yet and haven't really had to shoulder any responsibility for their lives.

Marriage isn't the only way to learn to be an adult. Plenty of people learn to be adults without getting married. I'd argue exactly what you don't believe is a valid claim - that people should have a grasp on adulthood before they think about getting married, which generally speaking, does come with age, but more specifically, with life experience. As a person begins to take responsibility for their life and the learn to manage the outcomes of their choices, they mature, because ultimately, that's what maturity is. And through a combination of factors, our society has delayed the point at which that generally happens.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by Aaron Adams

Most people wait till at least 25 to get married these days, and most of those marriages end in divorce. There is no magic age when people become grown up, and I think that late marriage is one reason people seem to stay immature for longer. People seem to think, "Now that people are still immature at 25, they should wait till they're 25 to get married." But I'm not convinced that this is a valid claim. It's not working. At least at age 17, the two people can learn to be adults together; my (limited) experience is that people who marry older tend to have more inflexibilities with regards to secondary things.

My claim is that there are many people in the United States who are ready for marriage at age 17. In fact, I think that the number ready at 17 is probably not that much smaller than those ready at 25. I'd say the number one most important thing for anyone considering marriage is that they love the Lord.

Aaron, I have known many 17 year olds, and I can't think of one who was ready for marriage. Thats because beneath whatever veneer of maturity, life has not yet given them the experience necessary to take on a good marriage. Furthermore, most 17 year olds are not prepared to provide for a wife and kids.

I genuinely can say that I was one of the more experienced 17 year olds I knew. However, until after I moved out, learned to face life on my own and stand up to hardship without anybody's assistance was I ready truly.

Age does not necessitate maturity will come, but it is a necessary component of maturity.