[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by AXguitar

Because religion would take the focus off the government, which would be the opposite of the communist agenda.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism

[Peatrical]

So communism, which forbids religion and puts powerful dictators into power who can exploit whomever they like, isn't bad?

Capitalism in it's modern sense can lead to the exact qualms you stated. When was the last time a lower class man became president? It looks like power dictator corporations are putting whoever they want in power.

As for your claims on communism: Communism doesn't put powerful dictators in place nor does it forbid religion. those are two very ignorant statements too many people make.


Many countries follow socialistic and social democratic economic policies, which is all communism is - an economic policy.

Communism: An economic theory which stresses that the control of the means of producing economic goods in a society should reside in the hands of those who invest their labor for production.

As for adaptations of communism; the USSR used a evolved marxist system, so it'll be the focus of my brief case study. on dictators: the USSR did have many elections, and they were not rigged, they had one party and you'd vote directly for which representative of the party to be in the formed government. this government would select a chairman or leader for the country. Political rights were limited, as were social rights however the ban on religion was gone very early in the life span of the USSR. there was production problems, but if it weren't for the strain of the arms race I believe the USSR could have worked it's agricultural and industrial kinks out by the late 60's and worked very nicely

[Ax]

Originally Posted by JerryLove

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism

That makes no sense whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Peatrical

Capitalism in it's modern sense can lead to the exact qualms you stated. When was the last time a lower class man became president? It looks like power dictator corporations are putting whoever they want in power.

As for your claims on communism: Communism doesn't put powerful dictators in place nor does it forbid religion. those are two very ignorant statements too many people make.


Many countries follow socialistic and social democratic economic policies, which is all communism is - an economic policy.



As for adaptations of communism; the USSR used a evolved marxist system, so it'll be the focus of my brief case study. on dictators: the USSR did have many elections, and they were not rigged, they had one party and you'd vote directly for which representative of the party to be in the formed government. this government would select a chairman or leader for the country. Political rights were limited, as were social rights however the ban on religion was gone very early in the life span of the USSR. there was production problems, but if it weren't for the strain of the arms race I believe the USSR could have worked it's agricultural and industrial kinks out by the late 60's and worked very nicely

Capitalism isn't exactly perfect but it's certainly better on it's citizens than communism is. And how can you prove that USSR's elections weren't rigged? Also, wouldn't you call Stalin a bit of a dictator? Take a look at East Germany back in the day, and the reason that the USSR had to wall in it's people in East Berlin. Look at how many refugees we get each year from Cuba. I really can't believe after how poorly the USSR treated it's people that you can sit there and defend it.

[Peatrical]

Capitalism isn't exactly perfect but it's certainly better on it's citizens than communism is.

Really? I seem to see a lot of homeless in capitalist societies and a lot of corporate exploitation. I also see wealth distribution that is not balances. A CEO who plays golf all day and gets fed information from real professionals; engineers, accountants and so on, and coats on the life of workers and laborers shouldn't make more than anyone else.

And how can you prove that USSR's elections weren't rigged?

How could you rig a direct democratic process with one party fielding multiple representatives that is scrutinized by the governing body that happens to be of that one governing party?

Look at how many refugees we get each year from Cuba

Look at all the people who love not having their land owned by American corporations. Look at all the people with access to health care, housing and education.

Do you have any idea what Cuba was like before Castro and his revolution? America had that country wrapped around it's finger, they even forced that it be made Cuban law to have only American naval ships allowed incuba when the Americans wrote the Cuban constitution. The Americans also supported a brutal dictator, and all the wealth that was made in the sugar cane industry went to American businesses that never worked the land and paid poor cubans jack all for their work. What did Castro do? Kick the Americans out, and nationalize industry so everyone got paid fairly. Not to mention that the people who escaped cuba initially were friends of said dictator, as well as friends of the us corporations. Why are children taught to hate cuba in the US? Because they stood up and set their own destiny. Batista who lead a corrupt and poverty ridden government was out and Castro was in.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

I believe Christian Communist makes perfect sense. How does it not make sense, would you care to state why?

I really can't believe after how poorly the USSR treated it's people that you can sit there and defend it.

Atleast they all had homes and access to healthcare. Don't pull the treatment card on me when the USA's current government is all about axing social security as much as possible.

Take a look at East Germany back in the day, and the reason that the USSR had to wall in it's people in East Berlin.

I am sorry but this whole statement is wrong. Stalin was 6 feet under nearly a decade before the Berlin wall came up - it was during the Khrushchev era however this wasn't as much soviet as you think. East Berlin was part of the Democratic Republic of Germany (German Democratic Republic), and the people fleeing were largely Germans, not Soviets. Germany was part of the Warsaw Pact, but not part of the USSR, got it? Furthermore the people that were fleeing East Berlin - mainly skilled workers and intellectuals were German. These people were GERMAN, not SOVIET, and Kruschev and the poliburo, and the USSR as a whole didn't have much to do with this. If you want to deal with hemming in the topic should be refuseniks under Leonid Brehznev.

[JerryLove]

That makes no sense whatsoever.

Yet it's real. Therefore, you must be working from a false presumption.

Capitalism isn't exactly perfect but it's certainly better on it's citizens than communism is.

Pure capitalism? No, I disagree. Moderated capitalism? Yes. It's more functional because it's more pragmatic.

OTOH, capitalist communism is doing pretty well in China these days.

And how can you prove that USSR's elections weren't rigged?

Early elections were rigged, later elections were not. How can you prove that US elections are not rigged?

Although, in arguing the elections must have been rigged, you do also establish that communism does not make dictators (or rigging would not have been neccessairy).

Also, wouldn't you call Stalin a bit of a dictator?

Sure would. Wouldn't you call Hitler a bit of a dictator?

Was Gorbachev a dictator? Does Putin wield signifgantly more power than Bush?

Take a look at East Germany back in the day, and the reason that the USSR had to wall in it's people in East Berlin. Look at how many refugees we get each year from Cuba. I really can't believe after how poorly the USSR treated it's people that you can sit there and defend it.

Take a look at the capitalism in Somalia, or Mexico. Look at the walls the US has built to keep Mexicans out.

You are cherry-picking communism examples.

[Peatrical]

Also, wouldn't you call Stalin a bit of a dictator?

He was a dictator, he also pulled his nation through WWII. I respect his governments for organizing the labour force to reclaim lost land and then crushing Germany. if It weren't for the CCCP/USSR well WWII would have been very different. I find his lack of interest for human suffering and starvation horrible though.

[Ax]

The Berlin wall was built because Russia found it embarrassing that the east Germans fled to the western controlled parts of the country. Russia at the time controlled East Germany and East Berlin, and at the time they were trying to prove that their way of life was better. The Germans apparently didn't communism and ran for the other side. Russia found this to be embarrassing and thus erected the wall.

There's a nice book to read that I had to read back in the day called "Red Scarf Girl" that recounted life in Communist China under Mao Zedong. It was pretty horrible.

[Peatrical]

Russia at the time controlled East Germany and East Berlin,

HAHA you're joking right? Russia was a republic in the USSR, the Democratic Republic of East Berlin was not. East Germany was an independent body. I am not sure where you learned your history but I don't think it was instructed with a little thing called historical fact.

and at the time they were trying to prove that their way of life was better.

It was actually more along the lines of "we don't want skilled laborers and intellectuals going west, that would cause a brain drain"

The Germans apparently didn't communism and ran for the other side. Russia found this to be embarrassing and thus erected the wall.

Germany had been communist for around 15 years at this point and it was a minority who was fleeing.

Russia found this to be embarrassing and thus erected the wall.

here is a cold war political geography lesson for you:

Russia Was no where near the East German border under cold war boundaries. Today russia is no where near the east berlin boundary. Russian politicians governed RUSSIA. USSR politicians set policy for the Soviet Union and advised Soviet allies like EASTERN GERMANY. EASTERN GERMANY was not a soviet satalite, what part of independent nation don't you understand? This was all Eastern German policy.

There's a nice book to read that I had to read back in the day called "Red Scarf Girl" that recounted life in Communist China under Mao Zedong. It was pretty horrible.

this point would mean something if maoism was the same as communism, or was related to what we were discussing. Want to talk about the cultural revolution? Did Russia have something to do with that as well?

Before bringing up Eastern German Politics next time you post, can you please stop calling them Russian? Russian was a republic in the USSR/CCCP, Russian politicians ran Russia, CCCP/USSR politicians set quotas and polciy for the USSR and advised CCCP allies and Warsaw pact members. East Germany was not in the Soviet Union, it was in the warsaw pact. It was a Socialist State. That is all/

[Ax]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_wall

... If the USSR didn't have some hold on the GDR then why did the USSR president have to approve of it. Or when all those presidents made speeches at it did they address their speeches to the current dictators?

I tend to remember Reagan making a speech that said "Mr. Gorbachev tear down this wall!"

[Peatrical]

Advise: Wikipedia isn;t good to use when you read it for the answers you want.

The Berlin Wall was the most prominent part of the GDR border system. Conceived by the East German administration of Walter Ulbricht

Khrushchev had to approve of the wall because East Berlin was officially in the Soviet occupation zone, further interests in such would show up at the Paris conference and the 1962 bargaining table. . This agreement was more of a formality than anything else, and the USSR had no hand in the planing of said wall. So frankly russians had nothing to do with it, nor did soviets. Please respect the difference between Soviet and Russia and Stalin and Khrushchev.

A little more wiki action (since no one seems to read books anymore)

German Democratic Republic (GDR; German: Deutsche Demokratische Republik, or DDR; known in English as East Germany) was a communist state which existed from 1949 to 1990. The German Democratic Republic was established in the Soviet occupation zone of Germany on October 7, 1949, following the creation in May 1949 of the Federal Republic of Germany ("West Germany") in the zones occupied by the United States, Britain and France. Berlin (in practice, East Berlin) was claimed as its capital.

It covered the current states of Germany Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, Brandenburg, Saxony-Anhalt, Thuringia and Saxony and the eastern part of Berlin.

The Republic was declared fully sovereign in 1955; however, Soviet troops remained based on the four-power Potsdam agreement. As American troops remained in West Berlin and West Germany, the GDR and Berlin in particular became focal points of Cold War tensions. The GDR was a member of the Warsaw Pact and a close ally of the Soviet Union.

[Ax]

http://www.mltranslations.org/Germany/plunder.htm
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=6073
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~pvteach...apers/04b.html

Am I the only one that sees the GDR looking like a puppet?

[tlj009]

All we need to do for power generation is fill up vast areas of barren desserts with solar panels, and put more windmills up in the great planes. In one of my engg lectures it was discussed that you could power all of north America with the solar energy available in an small portion of the Arizona dessert, but transporting it grid to grid would be a problem.

Windmills and solar panels in the great planes and deserts is not practical. To make it work would require the government to control it. The existing energy companies would then be abandoned. And it would have to be put in place in a short time period. On the other hand, communities generating there own energy through a cost efficient means (something where the cost could be recovered in at most 20 years) would allow for multiple companies to produce the energy, could be phased in gradually, and make the energy source less available to attack (as opposed to having everything in the great plains). The existing infrastructure of power lines could continue to be used. Cheaper windmills, solar panels, etc. would almost surely be more widely purchased by individuals and therefore rely less on the power companies. That seems like the best way to do it to me. Make it cheap and easy enough for the individual household to help supply the energy of the nation.

[bobthecockroach]

I strongly recommend that no one use the word "Communism" until they have read at least the first two chapters of The Communist Manifesto. By Marx's understanding of Communism, one could easily argue that Communism has never actually existed.

Conveniently, the Manifesto is available online (in 31 languages, w00t!):
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx...esto/index.htm

[Peatrical]

Originally Posted by AXguitar

http://www.mltranslations.org/Germany/plunder.htm
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=6073
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~pvteach...apers/04b.html

Am I the only one that sees the GDR looking like a puppet?

The first link states that the USSR mainly hindered German development, and not once is the phrase "Puppet" used.

Just as the FRG's chemical industry was made dependent on the U.S. oil monopolies, so the chemical industry of the GDR was made dependent on the Soviet superpower.

Many nations have done this over the past, hell the USA did it to the FRG. Tthe proper way to describe the GDR relation to the USSR would be economic pressure.


The third link draws poor parallels such as the comparison of unpopularity in the Nazi Germany to GDR. The nazis knew very well people didn't like them and these people disspared. this paper states clearly, and I quote:

...the failed realities of this and the fact the SED, unlike the Nazi regime before it, was aware it lacked popular support...

Furthermore the essay/paper never concludes that the GDR was a puppet state, it says that the GDR relied on the USSR which fostered a puppet state image.

This force comprised the strongest Soviet military concentration outside the national borders of the USSR. By the late 1980s, the Group of Soviet Forces in Germany/Western Group of Troops totaled over 380,000 troops and consisted of the 1st Guards Tank Army, the 2nd Guards Tank Army, the 3rd Shock Army, the 8th Guards Army, the 20th Guards Army and the 16th Air Army.

Your own link clearly states the GDR was not part of the USSR.

It is known that it was an Ulbricht policy to build the Berlin Wall, it was planned and executed in the GDR with little to do with the USSR, Kruschev, and of course Russia. Regardless of how much of a puppet GDR may or may not have been it was a German politician, in a German state, with GDR needs in mind who built the wall, not russia as you stated so vehemently. The links your provided don't allude to the fact of GDR being a puppet, but lay on economic figures, indecisive conclusions, false parallels, and military figures.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by JerryLove

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism

That page is what we Wikipedians would call "original research." Low number of citations and a long article means it's a poor entry.

I think the term "Christian Communism" is used a bit loosely by some revisionists examining lines of thought that resemble what is considered in modern terms Communism. However, I do not think the two are entirely incompatible.