[wjarmusch]

Originally Posted by AXguitar

I say that staying pure means more and is best done with a pure heart and pure mindset.

Well obviously...I think you know what I meant though.

[SilverNitrate]

Originally Posted by wjarmusch

...& staying pure is best done by courtship.

I'm going to have to disagree here. If me and the girl I was courting wanted to go off and break the rules... I could've just picked her up after her parents went to bed. The mindset of the guy and the girl is the best way to keep the relationship pure. If both people respect each other, and want to follow Christ's command and stay pure, then they will have an easier time in doing so. If the desire isn't there (whether your dating or courting) then it's really difficult in keeping the relationship godly.

[passinthru]

Originally Posted by wjarmusch

Personally quite a few of the girls I know would just be uncomfortable going on a date because they have the mindset of keeping parents involved & staying pure is best done by courtship.

Once these girls marry,are they still going to ask their parents to hold their hand on every decision they make or does that become the job of their husband? Staying pure has nothing to do with parents being involved or not involved. If a couple needs that external locus of control in order to not get too physical, then they aren't ready for the commitment of a relationship. When you are unable to be responsible for your own behaviour and instead choose to abdicate that to your parents don't call it being safe or staying pure or being accountable. Call it what it is - a lack of maturity.

I agree, I think many of the girls I know would slap me if I asked them out on a date without consulting their parents and/or siblings first. Not kidding. Actually they wouldn't slap me right away because they would think it was a joke.

And I would slap you if you didn't have the common courtesy to ask me first. I can consult my own family or support network and get their advice for myself. I don't need you to go behind my back.

[Ax]

Originally Posted by passinthru

Once these girls marry,are they still going to ask their parents to hold their hand on every decision they make or does that become the job of their husband? Staying pure has nothing to do with parents being involved or not involved. If a couple needs that external locus of control in order to not get too physical, then they aren't ready for the commitment of a relationship. When you are unable to be responsible for your own behaviour and instead choose to abdicate that to your parents don't call it being safe or staying pure or being accountable. Call it what it is - a lack of maturity.


And I would slap you if you didn't have the common courtesy to ask me first. I can consult my own family or support network and get their advice for myself. I don't need you to go behind my back.

AMEN!

[wjarmusch]

Originally Posted by passinthru

Once these girls marry,are they still going to ask their parents to hold their hand on every decision they make or does that become the job of their husband? Staying pure has nothing to do with parents being involved or not involved. If a couple needs that external locus of control in order to not get too physical, then they aren't ready for the commitment of a relationship. When you are unable to be responsible for your own behaviour and instead choose to abdicate that to your parents don't call it being safe or staying pure or being accountable. Call it what it is - a lack of maturity.


And I would slap you if you didn't have the common courtesy to ask me first. I can consult my own family or support network and get their advice for myself. I don't need you to go behind my back.

I feel like this discussion just went from there's two ways you can do it, which one is better to
dating is the only mature way to do it. Why is everyone attacking courtship so much?

Ok...so getting advice from your parents is wrong because you'll learn to count on them when you need them?

I'm going to have to disagree here. If me and the girl I was courting wanted to go off and break the rules

Wow, three of you jumped on that sentance...geez. Of course you could go off and do your own thing...You could do that anytime. I could go pick up anyone I wanted and throw them in the car when their parents weren't looking and take off. What does that have to do with anything.

And I would slap you if you didn't have the common courtesy to ask me first. I can consult my own family or support network and get their advice for myself. I don't need you to go behind my back.

How is talking to someone's parents and asking them for advice about the relationship with their child going behind their backs. I'm the one who was concerned about the girl not being involved enough. How many times do I have to explain it before you understand where I'm coming from.

So basically are you saying that relying on your parents to help you make the biggest decision of your life (other than becoming a christian) is immature because you can't do it by yourself?

[Ax]

Originally Posted by wjarmusch

Wow, three of you jumped on that sentance...geez. Of course you could go off and do your own thing...You could do that anytime. I could go pick up anyone I wanted and throw them in the car when their parents weren't looking and take off. What does that have to do with anything.

You said that it was the best way to remain pure, when in fact this idea is flawed.

So basically are you saying that relying on your parents to help you make the biggest decision of your life (other than becoming a christian) is immature because you can't do it by yourself?

Yes, advice is one thing, but it should stop at advice, if you're ready for marriage then you should be an adult, and be able to act like one and make your own decisions.

[wjarmusch]

Originally Posted by AXguitar

You said that it was the best way to remain pure, when in fact this idea is flawed.

If you read what I actually said, I was saying that many of the girls I know thought this. And I didn't mean it was THE best way. I meant they thought dating vs. courtship that courtship would be the best way to do it given those two choices.

Yes, advice is one thing, but it should stop at advice, if you're ready for marriage then you should be an adult, and be able to act like one and make your own decisions.

I agree...What I'm not going to let my parents decide who I marry, ultimitely it would be my and whoever I marry's decision...not theirs. What did I say to imply otherwise?

Maybe I'll get some of my friends to read this thread and see if it's just me that isn't making sense of your argument.

[Ax]

Originally Posted by wjarmusch

If you read what I actually said, I was saying that many of the girls I know thought this. And I didn't mean it was THE best way. I meant they thought dating vs. courtship that courtship would be the best way to do it given those two choices.


I agree...What I'm not going to let my parents decide who I marry, ultimitely it would be my and whoever I marry's decision...not theirs. What did I say to imply otherwise?

Maybe I'll get some of my friends to read this thread and see if it's just me that isn't making sense of your argument.

You should start reading your own posts. Sorry for the bluntness, but seriously.

[passinthru]

Originally Posted by wjarmusch

I feel like this discussion just went from there's two ways you can do it, which one is better to
dating is the only mature way to do it. Why is everyone attacking courtship so much?

If you would re-read your posts, you are holding the position that courting is better than dating and the implication is that it is the only way to do things. At least if you want to remain pure and Godly.

Why am I attacking your theories and interpretation of courtship? Because they are idealistic and appear to be something you have been taught is the right way to do things.

Ok...so getting advice from your parents is wrong because you'll learn to count on them when you need them?

getting advise is one thing. Reality is though that they won't always be there to hold your hand. You have to stand on your own two feet.

As well, what you don't seem to take into account is that fact that more and more people can't rely on their parents due to the level of dysfunction in their relationship with their parents.

Wow, three of you jumped on that sentance...geez. Of course you could go off and do your own thing...You could do that anytime. I could go pick up anyone I wanted and throw them in the car when their parents weren't looking and take off. What does that have to do with anything.

You are the one who wrote and chose to post that sentence. You made the claim that courtship was the 'best way to remain pure'. Picking up anyone is different than getting too physically involved with your bf/gf. your example has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

How is talking to someone's parents and asking them for advice about the relationship with their child going behind their backs. I'm the one who was concerned about the girl not being involved enough. How many times do I have to explain it before you understand where I'm coming from.

I see going above her head and talking to her parents about her as incredibly dishonouring to her. Instead of going to her and allowing her to make her own choice, you first go to everyone else around you and her and ask their opinion. How is that not going behind her back? Once you do have everyone and their dogs' permission to 'court' her, then you ask her. Meanwhile, this girl has probably heard from everyone that hey you're asking around to everyone but her. Since you are asking her, there is a whole lot of pressure on her because everyone else said you could ask.

I understand where you are coming from. I feel though that you are only regurgitating what you have been taught your entire life. When I was young, my father used to rather like the idea of arranged marriages. I was taught that courtship as laid out by Bill Gothard was the only way to have a Godly relationship. I was 15 when I started to re-evaluate that position. I had by that point read all the anti-dating books that were so popular at the time. I had to sit down and think for myself, well what do I believe? What does Scripture have to say about all of this? I"m not saying throw your beliefs out the window. i am saying don't just blindly accept what you have been taught.

So basically are you saying that relying on your parents to help you make the biggest decision of your life (other than becoming a christian) is immature because you can't do it by yourself?

What I am saying is that if you cannot make that decision on your own, then you are not ready for marriage. You are not ready to be the head of a household. Sure get input from your parents and hers, at least if there is an actual relationship between parents and child.

From what I understand of parenting (and granted I am not a parent) is that the point is to raise children who can think for themselves. You teach them all that they need in order to make it without your help and intervention.

I"m not saying don't ask for advice, but don't rely on them.

[jael>rock<]

i think all that wjarmusch is trying to say is that you can have a better chance for purity if you court. he's not trying to say that you can't stay pure when dating, or that everyone that courts stays pure. just that you can have a better chance at it. it is completely your own choice of if you are going to be pure or not. but can you honestly say that it wouldn't make any difference in your decision if you knew that your parents are also wanting you to be pure and are going to be disappointed in you if you aren't? so really it's not that the parents can protect you, but they are a support system for you. but i want to finish this subject with . . . . you can date and still stay just as much if not more pure than someone who is courting i just want to be sure that you understand that i'm not arguing about that.

passinthru i completely agree with you. we should get advice from our parents and not have them hold our hands and shelter us from the world so that we're momma's children our whole married lives. what i think that maybe you didn't understand from what we've been saying is that's what courtship does. all it means is a bit of advice from your parents to help you. they don't make your decisions for you, they just give you a bit of advice.

i'm not saying throw your beliefs out the window. i'm saying don't just blindly accept what you have been taught.

i love this!!!! YESS!! Yes!!!! YYYYEEESSSS!!!! No matter what you have been taught (dating or courting or whatever) test it! think about it for yourself, and decide for yourself. ask others what they think and why! pray about it and do what you think God is leading you to do! i think this is what it all comes down to. God may be leading all of us to different styles of dating/courting/whatever.
so let's not pick each other apart for their ideas! if you think that the most Godly way to go about things is to date. then by all means DATE!!! if you think that the most Godly way to find your husband/wife is to court. then, please, COURT!!! This thread first started out as a polite discussion of both sides of the spectrum. all the sith of the blades wanted was a bit of a representation of each one. now it's become a cut-throat debate where each is sure that the other is dead wrong. couldn't we end this heated discussion with a bit of humility on each side and call a truce? i personally think courting is the way that God has called me. if God has called you to date, great!! i'm glad that you've found the thing that God wants you to do! i'm willing to admit that maybe courting isn't perfect in every way. so can we call it a tie without people cutting each other to pieces?

[SilverNitrate]

Originally Posted by wjarmusch

Ok...so getting advice from your parents is wrong because you'll learn to count on them when you need them?

Actually, it's not just getting advice from them. When I courted... the father had the majority of control. He told us what we could/couldn't do... there wasn't really any room for either of us to make important decisions on our own.

Furthermore, one of the biggest problems I have with parents who are too protecting of their daughters... they aren't allowing their daughters to grow in maturity.
This is based on my observations:
In the courtship, the 21 year old began to do the same things that middle school girls do once they lose interest in their boyfriend. Although she was 21, she still had difficulties making simple decisions that most people would see the obvious answer to in a matter of seconds. Like I said... she's 21... but she's been so sheltered that she acts like she's 16... at least when it comes to relationships (and other important decisions).

If you don't allow your children to grow up... they never will. They'll be 30 and still need you to tell them what to do with their lives because they haven't a clue.

Originally Posted by wjarmusch

Wow, three of you jumped on that sentance...geez. Of course you could go off and do your own thing...You could do that anytime. I could go pick up anyone I wanted and throw them in the car when their parents weren't looking and take off. What does that have to do with anything.

Well... seeing as you agree with us on that point... courting isn't necessarily the best way to have a pure relationship. We were just pointing out the flaw in that statement.

Originally Posted by wjarmusch

How is talking to someone's parents and asking them for advice about the relationship with their child going behind their backs.

It's not going behing their backs... it's going behind the girl's back. I think that's the point Passinthru was making.

Originally Posted by wjarmusch

So basically are you saying that relying on your parents to help you make the biggest decision of your life (other than becoming a christian) is immature because you can't do it by yourself?

I don't really think who you date is "the biggest decision of your life." And like everyone else has said, advice is one thing... but the typical father (at least with my knowledge) who expects his daughter to court isn't seeking to just give advice... they want most of the control. Babysitting your relationship and constantly being around is quite a bit different from just giving advice.

Originally Posted by jael>rock<

i think all that wjarmusch is trying to say is that you can have a better chance for purity if you court. he's not trying to say that you can't stay pure when dating, or that everyone that courts stays pure. just that you can have a better chance at it. it is completely your own choice of if you are going to be pure or not.

That doesn't logically follow...
Look at it again:
1) You can have a better chance for purity if you court.
But...
2) It is completely your own choice of if you are going to be pure or not.

If it's completely your own choice of if you are going to be pure or not... then how exactly would you have a better chance of remaining pure by courting?

Originally Posted by jael>rock<

but can you honestly say that it wouldn't make any difference in your decision if you knew that your parents are also wanting you to be pure and are going to be disappointed in you if you aren't?

That works great for highschool... when you're still living at home with your parents and you see them on a regular basis... but it doesn't exactly work so well when you move away and go to college. I've done things that my parents don't have a clue that I've done. Nor do the girls' parents.

Originally Posted by jael>rock<

so really it's not that the parents can protect you, but they are a support system for you.

Which is why I think courting would work better on high schoolers than it would on grown adults. Let me tell you... as a 25 (almost 26) year old who's lived away from home (for the most part) since I was 18... having a girl's dad tell you what you can and can't do can be quite irritating. I was completely indipendant from my parents for 7 years... I'd call them if I needed advice... but most of the time I just made a decision and suffered the consequences (whether they were good or bad)... regardless, I learned from my success as well as from my failures/mistakes. I know what I'm looking for out of a relationship... I don't need a babysitter.
And that's the problem that most people are going to have with courting.

Originally Posted by jael>rock<

passinthru i completely agree with you. we should get advice from our parents and not have them hold our hands and shelter us from the world so that we're momma's children our whole married lives. what i think that maybe you didn't understand from what we've been saying is that's what courtship does. all it means is a bit of advice from your parents to help you. they don't make your decisions for you, they just give you a bit of advice.

But that completely depends on the father who's adminitering the courtship. The father of the girl I courted wasn't just "giving advice" (yes, he did do that, but...) he also set some crazy ground rules:
For the 1st 3 months we were only allowed to communicate by sending 1 email a week.
3 months later we were given permission to have a relationship... but we weren't allowed to spend any time alone together.
We weren't supposed to talk but about 3 times a week on the phone.
We weren't allowed to have any physical contact (not even a hug hello/goodbye).
We weren't allowed to go anywhere that would look like a date/double date... if/when we went somewhere it was to be with a group and/or family.

That's a bit more than just giving advice.

And from all the stories I've heard from courting... the father's have given rules like these... if not much more strict. That is why I have a hard time thinking what you're describing to be "courting".

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by wjarmusch

But wouldn't you agree that accountablility helps?
To have someone watching your back to keep you on the right track. Sure I agree with you that you can't just rely on your parents, but it they're involved I'd think it would help.

Is parental involvement accountability? Think about why accountability works. It is because you do not want to let someone down, shame, etc.

Now if there is anybody it is easy to bypass it is parents. Now realize my parents are not exactly ethical. I share no extra info with them. I have my bank accounts with my mother having to be specifically locked out because she forged documents and added herself to my account and drained it before... Not someone I really want at my back... Now as horrible as that sounds, its fairly common to have immoral parents.

Now, I would recommend accountability, but most courtships I have seen are not about accountability. They are about external controls.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by jael>rock<

i think all that wjarmusch is trying to say is that you can have a better chance for purity if you court. he's not trying to say that you can't stay pure when dating, or that everyone that courts stays pure. just that you can have a better chance at it. it is completely your own choice of if you are going to be pure or not. but can you honestly say that it wouldn't make any difference in your decision if you knew that your parents are also wanting you to be pure and are going to be disappointed in you if you aren't? so really it's not that the parents can protect you, but they are a support system for you. but i want to finish this subject with . . . . you can date and still stay just as much if not more pure than someone who is courting i just want to be sure that you understand that i'm not arguing about that.

I disagree on that point. Of the 4 conservative couples I knew who got married, 3 were pregnant at the wedding. Now that may just be lousy odds, but the fact is, I have seen it have the effect of making a couple count on external control. Then when it is removed...

Its a point to consider.

passinthru i completely agree with you. we should get advice from our parents and not have them hold our hands and shelter us from the world so that we're momma's children our whole married lives. what i think that maybe you didn't understand from what we've been saying is that's what courtship does. all it means is a bit of advice from your parents to help you. they don't make your decisions for you, they just give you a bit of advice.

That is like no courtship I have seen. I have seen it mostly as control. They make decisions. They set parameters and are present. That is sheltering from reality. Another thing is that in general, just advice, would be dating. and yet another, not everyones parents are worth seeking advice from.

The problem here is the courters are saying roughly, dating is okay, but if you want purity you want your parents involved, and you don't tell the girl till after you have gone behind her back, set false expectations, and embedded the relationship with far too much significance in the beginning. That is dangerous.

[passinthru]

Originally Posted by jael>rock<

i think all that wjarmusch is trying to say is that you can have a better chance for purity if you court. he's not trying to say that you can't stay pure when dating, or that everyone that courts stays pure. just that you can have a better chance at it. it is completely your own choice of if you are going to be pure or not. but can you honestly say that it wouldn't make any difference in your decision if you knew that your parents are also wanting you to be pure and are going to be disappointed in you if you aren't? so really it's not that the parents can protect you, but they are a support system for you. but i want to finish this subject with . . . . you can date and still stay just as much if not more pure than someone who is courting i just want to be sure that you understand that i'm not arguing about that.

and that bolded section is my issue with what is being said. You cannot hold that claim. It is a false premise. We could trade personal stories and data for days and neither side would be able to prove which method gives you a better chance of purity.

Honestly, I'm 23, I live on my own. I have little contact with my parents. I have a horrible relationship with my parents and have for years. Whether my parents are disappointed in me or not really doesn't have a whole lot of bearing on my decisions. I am responsible for my decisions. yes there are people I go to to ask for advice, but I am accountable before God for what I do.

passinthru i completely agree with you. we should get advice from our parents and not have them hold our hands and shelter us from the world so that we're momma's children our whole married lives. what i think that maybe you didn't understand from what we've been saying is that's what courtship does. all it means is a bit of advice from your parents to help you. they don't make your decisions for you, they just give you a bit of advice.

That isn't courtship. And there are differing things in this thread already even on how courtship could be carried out. Courtship frankly is about parental control. There are two ways to get advice from your parents - as a child, or as an adult.

i love this!!!! YESS!! Yes!!!! YYYYEEESSSS!!!! No matter what you have been taught (dating or courting or whatever) test it! think about it for yourself, and decide for yourself. ask others what they think and why! pray about it and do what you think God is leading you to do! i think this is what it all comes down to. God may be leading all of us to different styles of dating/courting/whatever.
so let's not pick each other apart for their ideas! if you think that the most Godly way to go about things is to date. then by all means DATE!!! if you think that the most Godly way to find your husband/wife is to court. then, please, COURT!!! This thread first started out as a polite discussion of both sides of the spectrum. all the sith of the blades wanted was a bit of a representation of each one. now it's become a cut-throat debate where each is sure that the other is dead wrong. couldn't we end this heated discussion with a bit of humility on each side and call a truce? i personally think courting is the way that God has called me. if God has called you to date, great!! i'm glad that you've found the thing that God wants you to do! i'm willing to admit that maybe courting isn't perfect in every way. so can we call it a tie without people cutting each other to pieces?

I don't see how this has become cut throat. I'm asking you to think. Don't just spout what you've been taught. This is still a discussion. However, I think that the difference is that those of us who are asking you to hold your position are older and have been or are in serious relationships (or married).

You are contradicting yourself. You are trying to hold onto the value you've been taught that courtship is the best way to stay pure, and yet you are trying to be a peacemaker and say that you can stay pure in dating - cause hey that's what God has called you to - but courting is still better.

[passinthru]

Originally Posted by SilverNitrate

Actually, it's not just getting advice from them. When I courted... the father had the majority of control. He told us what we could/couldn't do... there wasn't really any room for either of us to make important decisions on our own.

Furthermore, one of the biggest problems I have with parents who are too protecting of their daughters... they aren't allowing their daughters to grow in maturity.
This is based on my observations:
In the courtship, the 21 year old began to do the same things that middle school girls do once they lose interest in their boyfriend. Although she was 21, she still had difficulties making simple decisions that most people would see the obvious answer to in a matter of seconds. Like I said... she's 21... but she's been so sheltered that she acts like she's 16... at least when it comes to relationships (and other important decisions).

and the control is my main issue with courtship. I know that there are good parents out there, but I haven't seen any parent be reasonable when their child is interested in a member of the opposite sex.

Well... seeing as you agree with us on that point... courting isn't necessarily the best way to have a pure relationship. We were just pointing out the flaw in that statement.

It's not going behing their backs... it's going behind the girl's back. I think that's the point Passinthru was making.

Yes. Thanks for clarifying for me.

That works great for highschool... when you're still living at home with your parents and you see them on a regular basis... but it doesn't exactly work so well when you move away and go to college. I've done things that my parents don't have a clue that I've done. Nor do the girls' parents.

My parents didn't even really see me all that much in high school. Granted my family is rather dysfunctional, but in my world, that is the norm.

I know what I'm looking for out of a relationship... I don't need a babysitter.
And that's the problem that most people are going to have with courting.

Agreed.

And from all the stories I've heard from courting... the father's have given rules like these... if not much more strict. That is why I have a hard time thinking what you're describing to be "courting".

What you described is what I was taught was courtship. yet, no one that I've spoken to who supports courtship will admit that there may be a problem with this model.

Originally Posted by BSPE

The problem here is the courters are saying roughly, dating is okay, but if you want purity you want your parents involved, and you don't tell the girl till after you have gone behind her back, set false expectations, and embedded the relationship with far too much significance in the beginning. That is dangerous.

I would like to see someone who supports the courtship model to explain how this could not be true. Everything that I have seen courters say supports this statement.