[MrCrabby]

Okay, i have two questions, #1. (to the Christians) How do you know that God exists? Don't just say "yes" or "no," give reasons, give examples where you've seen the power of God.
#2. (to the atheists and agnostics) How do you know that God does not exist? Give examples where you have seen the absence of God, and give reasons why God cannot exist. (we are not going to debate evolution vs. creation on this thread, please do not bring it up--anybody!)

Post away!
I'll post later.

[Karen M]

Hello GF


>>>#2. (to the atheists and agnostics) How do you know that God does not exist? Give examples where you have seen the absence of God, and give reasons why God cannot exist.<<<

I'm assuming you mean the Christian God?

The main problem would have to be that there is no evidence for the existance of your God. Usually when there is no evidence for or against something, that thing is false(such as the toothfairy and santa).

Also, there isn't any type of evidence that can prove the non-existance of something. All we can do is show that there is no evidence, that the claims are, in fact, contradictory to evidence, or that attributes and testimonies given in your discriptions or Holy Book are contradictory(which I believe the Bible is very contradictory to current science).

There is also the evidence and mass-corrilation suggesting that the Bible was written by a primitive society which was no different than Egyptian, Assyrian, or other religions. Yes, some sections of it are historically useful(for example, the world flood seems to have corrilated around the time geologists believe that the Black Sea flooded, and Lucifer falling in a ball of fire seems to corrilate to when they believe there may have been a large meteor shower), but most of it seems just like ancient myths, I'm afraid.

Also, the Bible uses scare tactics, sexist commentary, a large amount of what seems like wishful thinking(such as "if you just believe this then you will be forever happy because an omnipotent God will swoop you up into Heaven and make all those people you hate burn forever" ), and it affirms the existance of the supernatural and witchcraft(of which there are also no evidence for). I'm sorry, but these things are quite common in old mythological religions.


I hope you see where I'm comming from...

Karen

[JerryLove]

Agreed. The evidence against your God is vast, though the "God did it that way on purpose" answer falls under the simple rule of occom's razor.

There is no evidence to support a God. There is no need for a God to fit the facts in evidence. Therefore God is, at best, unlikely speculation.

If I were to ignore this principle, I would have to accept basically every religion's view of God or Gods, as I cannot disprove Allah or Thor either.

[JerryLove]

I see many religions, many gods, many worldviews, and many perspectives on life... and i see that all those religions and gods- every one of them that i know of- is about being good enough, about living up to a set of standards, a set of rules... and that one "religion" is about a relationship w/ a God who recognized that we could never be good enough, that we could never live up to a set of rules but loved us enough to pay the price and provide a way out.

Just though I would point out that for 3000 years, your religion *was* Judaism. And those are the belifs of Judaism.

Also worth pointing out that your belif that other all other religions require "worthyness" is untrue.

[MrCrabby]

Yes, i see where you're coming from.

I believe the Bible is very contradictory to current science

How so? Would you like to expound on that?

There is also the evidence and mass-corrilation suggesting that the Bible was written by a primitive society which was no different than Egyptian, Assyrian, or other religions.

Would you like to show me some of this evidence?
And, could a "primitive" society write works from different authors spanning several centuries, and still not have any contradictions?
(The only "contradictions" i've seen that could hold water are differing views in the gospels.)

but most of it seems just like ancient myths, I'm afraid.

I'm pretty sure that the thing about Lucifer is only a myth, unless you can find it in the Bible for me.
And many scientists believe in some kind of a world-wide flood.......(but i don't really want to get into scientific stuff right now, so i'll drop this)

Also, the Bible uses scare tactics,

Hmm.....i think it is actually quite the opposite, the Bible seems to look down on scaring people into heaven.

sexist commentary

Don't know where you get that one from.
Jesus was the greatest women's liberator of all time!

wishful thinking(such as "if you just believe this then you will be forever happy because an omnipotent God will swoop you up into Heaven and make all those people you hate burn forever"

Sorry, i dont' see this in the Bible either.
And "happy" and "joy" are two very different things.
"Happy" depends on circumstances.
"Joy" is forever, and only God can give that--i know--i've experienced it myself.......but.......that probably doesn't mean very much to you.
And heaven is only a small portion of all that salvation entails.

and it affirms the existance of the supernatural and witchcraft(of which there are also no evidence for).

Of course there is no evidence for it! That's why it's supernatural!
It cannot be explained.
About witchcraft, i say again, you need to go to Salem Massachusets!
Witchcraft does exist!

I'm sorry, but these things are quite common in old mythological religions

Yes, but it is the concept of a personal relationship to God that sets Christianity apart from other "old mythological religions."

Have a nice day,
mark

[MrCrabby]

Good posts Karen and Eggy.
Jerry, post your own views please.

I don't have too much time to make another lengthy post right now, so i'll just say, look at the life of a guy named Kurt Warner, if you don't know who he is, he is the quarterback for the St. Louis Rams.
He has an awesome life story!
If you ever get a chance, look into it!
And best of all, he gives all the credit for the success in his life to God.
I think that his life is an awesome example of God's power.

[JerryLove]

Christianity is the one religion that's about the fact that we can never be good enough...

I thnk however that you miss the point. You said that you felt other religions were not true because they were based on behavior. However, you feel that (prior to Jesus) Judaism was true despite it meeting your critera (being dependant on acts). How can you claim that a religion based on acts was true, but no other are because they are based on acts?

Wicca has no action or worthiness to get into heaven. Neither do most transindental religions. Hinduism (as I understand it) only requires taht you do a good job in this life to get a good incarnation in the next. Ditto most Shinto beliefs. Daoism does not address an afterlife at all (in it's purist sense).

Also, I doubt that you could wander around killing everyone you meet but believing in Jesus and still expect to get into heaven (maybe you could). Do you think Hitler could be waiting in heaven? Certainly Satan believes in Jesus, having met him personally.

[JerryLove]

How so? Would you like to expound on that?

Well, the Earth isn't 6,000 or so years old. Closer to 4,000,000,000. Man did not come into being within 2 days of every other animal. The moon is not a light. There is no layer of water above the stars. Hail is not stored by God somewhere to be used in case of war. The winds follow undersood rules of behavior. You cannot build a stone tower to heaven (as Voyager has yet to reach heaven and is far further than a stone structure could be built). A bowl 1 cubit in radius is not 3 cubits in diameter. Etc.

Would you like to show me some of this evidence?

The Jesus bin Joseph legend borrows heavily from both the Roman God Mithras, and the Jewish history of Jesus Bin Purdiah (sp), a man from 100 BCE who went around healing the sick and was stoned to death for sorcery. His mother's name was Mary Magedline. The Noah flood is an obvious copy of the flood of Gilgamesh (right down the creation of the rainbow). Satan appeard from Zoroastrianism and is obviously modeled after the chief God of Babylon. Etc.

And, could a "primitive" society write works from different authors spanning several centuries, and still not have any contradictions?

Ignoring the obvious "vague" and "edited" response. We non-Christians find so many contradictions, we don't understand how you Christians can deny them (like the difference in creation order between Genesis 1 and genesis 2). Though a consistant book would not be a terribly amazing feat (despite how much troubl modern television writers seem to have).

Hmm.....i think it is actually quite the opposite, the Bible seems to look down on scaring people into heaven.

No. The first half is God using every opportunity to show hoe "mighty" and "powerful" and "terrifying" he is. And killing or having killed anyone who makes a mistake (like sweeping on the sabboth or living in Isreal when the Jews arrived). The second half talks about how bad hell is, and how much it will suck for you to be there.

Jesus was the greatest women's liberator of all time!

Cite.

"Joy" is forever, and only God can give that--i know--i've experienced it myself.......but.......that probably doesn't mean very much to you.

You just supported what you are arguing against.

Of course there is no evidence for it! That's why it's supernatural!
It cannot be explained.

That is not what supernatural means, and explanation and evidence are unrelated. There is no emperical data that the supernatural exists.

About witchcraft, i say again, you need to go to Salem Massachusets!
Witchcraft does exist!

You are correct. Witchcraft exists, magic and Satan do not.

Yes, but it is the concept of a personal relationship to God that sets Christianity apart from other "old mythological religions."

Semi-unique ideas = true ideas?

[BIGFATJAM]

Where did we get the concept of God if he doesn’t exist?


And then there is the Bible...here are just a few facts on the Bible:

Written over a 1500 year span

More than 40 different authors form all walks of life including:
-kings, peasants, philosophers, fishermen, poets, statesmen and scholars, etc.

It was written in different places including:
-3 continents

Was written in 3 languages
-Hebrew, Greek, and Aramic

The subject matter contains hundreds of controversial topics yet its authors speak in harmony and continuity from beginning to the end!

If all the Bibles in the world today were to be destroyed, you would still be able to go to an average library and piece together the entire Bible from Biblical quotes found in other books.

The Bible is full of filled prophecies! The Old Testament alone has 300 prophecies pointing to the coming messiah, all of which were fulfilled in the coming of Christ! Some think that Christ, aware of these prophecies, orchestrated his life to fulfill them. However, many of these prophecies fulfilled were out of his control!

Here are few of them:

Isaiah 7:14 fulfilled in Mathew 1:18,24-25 (Born of Virgin);
Gen22:18 fulfilled in Mathew 1:1 (Seed of Abraham);
Gen 49:10 fulfilled in Luke 3:23,33 (Tribe of Judah);
Micah 5:2 fulfilled in Mathew 2:1 (Born at Bethlehem);
Jerem. 31:15 fulfilled in Mathew 2:16 (Herod Kills Children);
Isaiah 40:3 fulfilled in Mathew 3:1-2 (Preceded by Messenger);
Psalm 78:2 fulfilled in Mathew 13:34 (Spoke in Parables);
Isaiah 35:5-6a fulfilled in Mathew 9:35 (Ministry of Miracles);
Zech. 13:7 fulfilled in Mark 14:50 (Forsaken by Disciples);
Psalm 20 fulfilled in Mark 15:34 (…My God, why have you forsaken…).

Some think that this happened by chance. However if you toke the odds of 8 prophecies given 400-1000 years prior to their coincidental fulfillment, it would be as likely as filling up the state of Texas 2 feet deep with silver dollars and marking one coin, stirring the whole mass of coins thoroughly and blindfolding a man and telling him that he can travel as far as he whishes, but he must pick up the one silver dollar that had been marked in his first pick! ·In other words 1 in 10 to the 17th power!

·No other book in all of history has made an impact on the world more than the Bible.
·Many people have sought out to disprove the authenticity of the Bible, yet it still stands:
·”The Bible is an anvil that has worn away many weapons”

The complexity and authenticity of the Bible alone proves that there must be a God who loves us and strongly desires our knowledge of him.

[T-Diddy]

OK, so there's no scientific evidence that God exists, nor is there any scientific evidence that he doesn't. So here's why I believe.

...because the beauty, complexity and intricacies of the universe, earth and life are too much for me to see it as anything but an intelligent design.

...because when I stand on the top of mountain and look around all I can do is say "Thank you God".

...because when I get slapped upside the head and fall on my face and beg forgiveness, I know I didn't think to do that on my own.

...because when I'm facing a horrible situation or tough times and I pray, I am filled with a peace that passes all understanding.

...because I have seen people's lives turn 180 degrees from evil in a heartbeat.

...because months and years after something happened that didn't seem to have any chance of working for good despite my faith that God's will was being accomplished, it suddenly made sense as God revealed it.

...because I can't put the experience of worship and seeking God into words.

...because God speaks to me through his Word and proves Himself through his Word like no other god.

...because there are two options. Choose God and live in his hope or choose to deny God and live a pointless existence.

...because ever since Christ became a part of my life, I can't fathom life with Him.

[Jeremiah]

Off topic question. JerryLove and Karen M, why are ya'll registered on a Christian messageboard if your not Christians? No offense intended there I'm just curius.

[JerryLove]

And best of all, he gives all the credit for the success in his life to God.

And what do you think of good pious people with crummy lives? Or good people with great lives that don't believe in your God? It's easy in a world of 6,000,000,000 to find examples of people claiming God did all teh good things in their lives and having good things. It's not too difficult to find counter examples eaither.

[JerryLove]

Off topic question. JerryLove and Karen M, why are ya'll registered on a Christian messageboard if your not Christians? No offense intended there I'm just curius.

I was invited. Requested actually.

[Karen M]

Hello again GF

>>>Karen: I believe the Bible is very contradictory to current science

GF: How so? Would you like to expound on that?<<<

Well, lets start with Genesis shall we?

For one thing, the Gen 1 account claims that the earth is created before light and stars. It also says that birds and whales came before reptiles and bugs, and that flowering plants came before animals.

God also creates light on the first day. I find that kind of hard to do considering the sun and the stars were not created until the fourth day(the source of light). Not to mention that plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes.

Then there is the little problem that the sky is not a large dome of water behind the sun….

Those are the first few, unless you want to start getting into the major ones such as the actual age of the earth and evolution?


>>>Would you like to show me some of this evidence?<<<

I already have: sexist use of language, lack of scientific understanding, scare tactics, wishful thinking, etc…


>>>And, could a "primitive" society write works from different authors spanning several centuries, and still not have any contradictions?
(The only "contradictions" i've seen that could hold water are differing views in the gospels.)<<<

It has many contradictions and the reason that the many books were included in one Bible was because they DID fit together in the first place(all the ones that they couldn’t either edit just a bit to fit or start with were thrown out). Unfortuanlty, they still couldn’t quite get out some off them. For example, in Gen 3:9-11, God calls around asking where Adam is and asks who told him that he was naked(what happened to being omniscent?). Also, in Gen 11:5, God came down to see a town(what happened to omnipresence?).



>>>I'm pretty sure that the thing about Lucifer is only a myth, unless you can find it in the Bible for me.
And many scientists believe in some kind of a world-wide flood.......(but i don't really want to get into scientific stuff right now, so i'll drop this)<<<

No, most scientists do not believe in a world-wide flood; most believe that the Biblical flood was based on the flood of the Black Sea.



>>>Hmm.....i think it is actually quite the opposite, the Bible seems to look down on scaring people into heaven.<<<

And telling people that they have to believe in Jesus or they burn in Hell for eternity doesn’t count?



>>>Don't know where you get that one from.
Jesus was the greatest women's liberator of all time!<<<

Well, for one, your Bible claims that God himself considered women no more than property; notice how in the 10 commandments, “thou shall not covet thy neighbor’s wife” is in there with the the ox, or the house, or anything else that is your neighbor’s “property”…

Also Gen 7:2 clearly states of every beast that you will take the male and HIS female; as if males owning females is the norm.

In Paul 5:22-24, it clearly claims that women are inferior to men and that women should submit themselves to men as they would to God.



>>>Sorry, i dont' see this in the Bible either.
And "happy" and "joy" are two very different things.
"Happy" depends on circumstances.
"Joy" is forever, and only God can give that--i know--i've experienced it myself.......but.......that probably doesn't mean very much to you.
And heaven is only a small portion of all that salvation entails.<<<

Very well, I’ll edit my wishful thinking response then…: If you just believe you will be swooped up by God to eternal Joy where you will have no more problems or worries and all the people you hate will conveniantly burn in hell forever.



>>>Of course there is no evidence for it! That's why it's supernatural!
It cannot be explained.
About witchcraft, i say again, you need to go to Salem Massachusets!
Witchcraft does exist!<<<

I really hope you aren’t talking about the Salem witch trials? That was a sick ordeal that killed 20 innocent people; it was a farce to gain land from the people hanged.



>>>Yes, but it is the concept of a personal relationship to God that sets Christianity apart from other "old mythological religions."<<<

No it doesn’t Also, why does it matter about having a relationship with God if you don’t even know if that God exists?


Karen

[Karen M]

hmm...it didn't show me those other posts until just now..