[redbaron]

greed may be the original motivation, but no matter how greedy you are, you aren't going to kill someone because you love them. Look at the biographers of most murder-for-hire people. :ugh:

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by Niflmir

If we want to talk about whether homosexuality is contra-scripture or not, we can open another thread and I will gladly join the discussion there.

The idea that we should hate the sinful acts of homosexuality but not the people that identify themself as homosexual is a semantic cop out. It is hateful in and of itself, but it is hate covered over by the idea that "they can choose not to sin." Essentially the same as saying "I don't hate you, I hate who you identify yourself to be." Although I am no expert in hate speech and all of its nuances, there are many people who devote their lives to fighting these sorts of hate messages. There are so many of them that homosexuality was added to our (the Canadian) list of basises for hate crimes.

As we study ourselves and those around us, we learn a lot about how we behave. It is in the past century that we have learned that these sorts of ideas engender hatred and violence. Nobody should enable anybody else when they seek justification for a view which is prone to violence.

What is the stanard of living for a Christian? The Word of God or the Canadian legislature. Scripture is very clear that homosexuality is sinful.

I never said love the sinner, hate the sin. Ironically, though I when asked about it will not condone homosexuality as biblical or in anyway compatible with Christianity, I happen to be friends with several lesbians because of my showing the love of Christ to them through words and actions.

I am also a pacifist, so accusing me of promoting violence is insane.

Hating sin is not my job. God is judge. But not condoning it is our job as believers.

Your post contains numerous logical fallacies. basically summed up that scripture leads to violence.

[redbaron]

A lot of people say "hate the sin" when it would probably be more appropriate to say "do not condone sin" or "do not approve of sin"

the problem is that people misuse "hate" perhaps because the meaning changes with popular culture.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by redbaron

if i kill you because i want revenge when you run off with my wife (which you haven't done, nor do i have), it's no less a hate crime than when you kill someone because you hate them for any other reason.

Right, but it is more of a hate crime that some random thug shooting some guy and his wife in a back alley because they wouldn't give up their wallets. He doesn't know them personally, and is only murdering them because they stand in the way of his greed.

Doesn't make it any more right, and to me, murder is murder. [shrug]

I think we're all in agreement there.

Go back to the example of the two children. One steals the toy simply because they want it. The other does it intentionally to spite the other child. If you're aware the second child did it out of hatred for the other person, wouldn't you add that to your chastisement of the child? Whereas for the first child, you might say "What you did is wrong, and on top of that, the other child is going to think you don't like them," you would be cruel to add "You stole that out of hate, and you are a hateful person" because the child didn't do that. Clearly they passively thought less of the other, but not actively and viciously.

Maybe we do need another thread on this. I don't support hate crime legislation because I think it's difficult to police and quickly becomes an Orwellian thought crime, but I do think we can agree that motivation comes into play for how heinous a crime is (did you rob a house because you are simply a thief, or did you rob a specific house because the owners are black and you want both their goods and to scare them?).

[Role Modlin]

I've yet to be conviced that killing someone because he/she is gay/black/female is any more hateful than killing someone because he/she pissed you off and you want him/her to die.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Niflmir

The idea that we should hate the sinful acts of homosexuality but not the people that identify themself as homosexual is a semantic cop out.

I hardly see how its a cop out or a matter of semantics. The person is not their sin. They are two seperate things. Thus, it's hardly semantics or a cop out to say you hate one and not the other.

Further, scripture speaks against homosexual acts. Homosexual actions are sinful, not an "orientation." Thus, homosexual sins aren't being treat different from any other sin. Sin is evil. We should hate it. We should hate greed. We should hate lust. We should hate fornication. We should hate murder. We should hate blasphemy. We should hate homosexual acts.

It is hateful in and of itself, but it is hate covered over by the idea that "they can choose not to sin."

How is this different from any other sin on the planet? Can anyone stop sinning? We're all depraved and prone towards sin. I don't expect homosexuals to just STOP being tempted in the direction or for their "orientation" to magically change. It doesn't really matter. Sin is sin and we are to hate sin no matter what people are tempted with.

Essentially the same as saying "I don't hate you, I hate who you identify yourself to be."

When did our identity start coming from our chosen sins? Is someone who is addicted to porn identified as "Porn Addict?" Is someone who gossips identity as a "Slanderous Gossip?" I simply don't see how the whole of our identity is summoned up in our biggest sin problem.

Further, you're still not dealing with our actual position on homosexuality. It's homosexual acts that are the problem, not an inclination or tempation. If someone does choose to embrace a sinful lifestyle, then yes I will hate their sinful lifestyle...regardless of whether its homosexual in nature or heterosexual or greedy or whatever.

Do parents stop loving their children when they become teenagers and rebel? Does a parent stop loving their child because they experiment with drugs? They may HATE what they're doing, but they still love their child.

Although I am no expert in hate speech and all of its nuances, there are many people who devote their lives to fighting these sorts of hate messages. There are so many of them that homosexuality was added to our (the Canadian) list of basises for hate crimes.

You think that hating sin is a bad thing?