What's Next?

presbystrat · 06-20-2006, 06:58 PM

I watched the PCUSA GA on the web today as they discussed and voted on the Peace, Purity, & Unity Taskforce recommendations. They passed an amendment to allow presbyteries to make their own interpretations of the constitution in regards to ordination standards. This basically will open the way for some presbyteries to begin ordaining practicing homosexuals. I don't know if this means that there will be a split. There has been talk among conservatives of this happening. My wife is a pastor in the PCUSA so we are pretty tied to this denomination. There are no other Presbyterian denominations that I know of that will ordain a woman. I don't know what we will do. It gets harder and harder to stay with the PCUSA. I don't think the liberals will be satisfied just yet; they will push for more and more. We have always felt that we should stay and be salt and light in this denomination but I don't know how much further we can go. Will we have yet another Presbyterian denomination form?

exo · 06-20-2006, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by presbystrat

I watched the PCUSA GA on the web today as they discussed and voted on the Peace, Purity, & Unity Taskforce recommendations. They passed an amendment to allow presbyteries to make their own interpretations of the constitution in regards to ordination standards. This basically will open the way for some presbyteries to begin ordaining practicing homosexuals. I don't know if this means that there will be a split. There has been talk among conservatives of this happening. My wife is a pastor in the PCUSA so we are pretty tied to this denomination. There are no other Presbyterian denominations that I know of that will ordain a woman. I don't know what we will do. It gets harder and harder to stay with the PCUSA. I don't think the liberals will be satisfied just yet; they will push for more and more. We have always felt that we should stay and be salt and light in this denomination but I don't know how much further we can go. Will we have yet another Presbyterian denomination form?

The bolded statement seems so ironic to me in this situation. Seems you have made your own interpretations of the Word of God in order to make way for your own differing beliefs.

guitargeek6298 · 06-20-2006, 07:45 PM

Quote:

The bolded statement seems so ironic to me in this situation. Seems you have made your own interpretations of the Word of God in order to make way for your own differing beliefs.

I was thinking that as well.

Of course, for me that's the pot calling the kettle black, since we used to have two women pastors at my church. :P

presbystrat · 06-20-2006, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exo

The bolded statement seems so ironic to me in this situation. Seems you have made your own interpretations of the Word of God in order to make way for your own differing beliefs.

That's a pretty cheap shot at someone who is struggling with a very difficult situation. The issue of woman's ordination is no where near the issue of ordaining homosexuals. I can support my position on the ordination of women from scripture. I am sure my interpretation is different than yours but so be it. I used to be in the PCA and a struggled for a whole year about the issue of women's ordination before I decided to marry my wife who wanted to be a minister. I have come to my position honestly with much prayer and study. I have written several papers on the ordination of women. I can probably argue your side of the argument better than you can. I probably can't pursuade any of you here that are against woman's ordination. There are Christians of strong faith on both sides of the issue. I think we ought to be able to agree that it is a non-essential issue to the Faith. The unrepentent sin of homosexuality is a totally different matter.

Reedolo · 06-20-2006, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by presbystrat

That's a pretty cheap shot at someone who is struggling with a very difficult situation. The issue of woman's ordination is no where near the issue of ordaining homosexuals. I can support my position on the ordination of women from scripture. I am sure my interpretation is different than yours but so be it. I used to be in the PCA and a struggled for a whole year about the issue of women's ordination before I decided to marry my wife who wanted to be a minister. I have come to my position honestly with much prayer and study. I have written several papers on the ordination of women. I can probably argue your side of the argument better than you can. I probably can't pursuade any of you here that are against woman's ordination. There are Christians of strong faith on both sides of the issue. I think we ought to be able to agree that it is a non-essential issue to the Faith. The unrepentent sin of homosexuality is a totally different matter.

I agree. Personally, I don't agree with ordaining women to the priesthood...but in Protestant churches I couldn't care less if women are ordained or not, because it's not a real Priesthood anyway. I'd much rather see women ordained (in protestant churches) than practicing homosexuals.

exo · 06-21-2006, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by presbystrat

That's a pretty cheap shot at someone who is struggling with a very difficult situation. The issue of woman's ordination is no where near the issue of ordaining homosexuals.

It isn't? For me, and others, Scripture is pretty clear on the matter, and consider women in a pastoral role to be sinful. I don't see it as a cheap shot in this instance, because you are currently going against orthodox Christianity and crying out against a group of people who are essentially doing the very same thing.

Quote:

I can support my position on the ordination of women from scripture. I am sure my interpretation is different than yours but so be it.

Which is the exact same line of argumentation that someone who supports homosexuals in the priesthood.

Quote:

I used to be in the PCA and a struggled for a whole year about the issue of women's ordination before I decided to marry my wife who wanted to be a minister. I have come to my position honestly with much prayer and study. I have written several papers on the ordination of women. I can probably argue your side of the argument better than you can. I probably can't pursuade any of you here that are against woman's ordination. There are Christians of strong faith on both sides of the issue. I think we ought to be able to agree that it is a non-essential issue to the Faith. The unrepentent sin of homosexuality is a totally different matter.

Again, the exact same thing can be said from people on the homosexual side of this argument. They don't feel that it's an essential of the faith, there have been papers written, etc.

So, if your argumentation comes down to: It's just my interpretation. Well, it's just their interpretation as well.

presbystrat · 06-21-2006, 03:40 PM

EXO-
Where in the Bible does it directly say that ordaining women is a sin? There are however direct references to homosexuality being a sin. You are going to have to do better than the standard proof texts of 1Tim 2:11-15 and 1 Cor 14 33b-35; that is pretty unReformed. My interpretation is based on the Reformed doctrine of interpreting scripture with scripture not proof texting. I have considered the entirety of scripture to base my view on not on a few singled out verses. When I made my decision about the ordination of women I was attending Reformed Theological Seminary which is a conservative seminary teaching orthodox Reformed Christian doctrine. I used the tools I learned there to formulate my position. Again, I could probably argue your position on women's ordination better than you could. I believed what you believed at one time and it took me a lot of study and prayer to get to where I am on this issue today. The scripture verse you mention may not be as black and white as you think. Why did Paul tell Timothy that he did not allow women to teach or have authority over men? He says that he doesn't allow it but he never says that God forbids it. What's kind of ironic is that Timothy learned everything he knew of the faith from his mother and grandmother. I supposed you might say that women can teach children but aren't children more vulnerable to false doctrine than adults? Are you consistent in your method of interpretation? Do you apply the same level of literal interpretation to other passages? What do you do with the instances in the Bible where women have been given authority by God over men? What do you do with the example of Deborah who was one of the Judges of Israel (Judges 4). What about Huldah the prophetess whom God called to give guidance to Israel (2 Kings 22). What about Miriam who was a co-leader with Moses and Aaron? How about Junias which in Romans 16:7 is referred to as on of the Apostles? What about Priscilla who is mentioned before her husbands name and appears to have instructed Apollos on the Faith. I find it deeply troublesome that Conservatives and Liberals alike connect the two issues of Women's ordination and ordination of homosexuals. They are not similar issues by any means. It is possible for a conservative Bible believing Christian that holds to inerancy, verbal and planar inspiration, and the authority of scripture to support women's ordination. I don't think this is possible on the issue of the ordination of homosexuals. The support for ordination of homosexuals is based on a totally different presuppositional mindset about interpretation of scripture.