[Humphrey B Bear]

The bible doesn't change
The words don't change
The message is still the same as it was 2000 years ago
It's the same message that went from person to person from house to house with out the new testament with out a hierachy of people forming a "church" organisation telling people they have to do more to receive the free gift of God's Grace...........

Where as the teaching of the RCC or any church can and does change
(for proof look at history)
Unless a church is in line with Gods word I really don't consider it under God as the bible is God's word and to go against His word is to go against him

Humphrey

Hebrews 13:9
Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by ceremonial foods, which are of no value to those who eat them.

[catholicpriest]

Originally Posted by Humphrey B Bear

The bible doesn't change
The words don't change
The message is still the same as it was 2000 years ago
It's the same message that went from person to person from house to house with out the new testament with out a hierachy of people forming a "church" organisation telling people they have to do more to receive the free gift of God's Grace...........

How do you know that the Bible you are reading today is the same Bible that Christians were reading 500, 1000, 1500, years ago? Who preserves the integrity of the Bible? And you can't just say "God," because God works through human beings.

Originally Posted by Humphrey B Bear

Where as the teaching of the RCC or any church can and does change
(for proof look at history)

You're going to have to be a little bit more specific than that.

Originally Posted by Humphrey B Bear

Unless a church is in line with Gods word I really don't consider it under God as the bible is God's word and to go against His word is to go against him

Where does it say in the Bible that the Bible is the only source of Divine Revelation? And where does the Bible authenticate itself?

The Hindu's believe that the Vedas are Sacred Writ. The Muslims believe that the Quran is Sacred Writ. Why don't Christians believe that? Why don't we believe that the Gospel of Judas is Sacred Writ? Ultimately we have to rely on an authority outside of the Bible if we are to believe that the Bible is the Word of God.

Originally Posted by Humphrey B Bear

Hebrews 13:9
Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by ceremonial foods, which are of no value to those who eat them.

If you are trying to attack the Eucharist, this passage won't work. First of all, you have taken it out of context. Read the rest of the passage. None of it refers to the Eucharist, but rather to the animal sacrifices of the Levitical priesthood.

[tlj009]

I believe we are looking a secondary authorities and not the final authority. The final authority is God the father, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit. The Church (not necessarily RCC) is authenticated by the Holy Spirit and the Bible is authenticated by the same Holy Spirit. One cannot in itself deny the other. Ultimately God must be received by faith, which brings up the other half of your original question.

[theguidedheart]

Originally Posted by catholicpriest

How do you know that the Bible you are reading today is the same Bible that Christians were reading 500, 1000, 1500, years ago? Who preserves the integrity of the Bible? And you can't just say "God," because God works through human beings.



You're going to have to be a little bit more specific than that.




Where does it say in the Bible that the Bible is the only source of Divine Revelation? And where does the Bible authenticate itself?

The Hindu's believe that the Vedas are Sacred Writ. The Muslims believe that the Quran is Sacred Writ. Why don't Christians believe that? Why don't we believe that the Gospel of Judas is Sacred Writ? Ultimately we have to rely on an authority outside of the Bible if we are to believe that the Bible is the Word of God.



If you are trying to attack the Eucharist, this passage won't work. First of all, you have taken it out of context. Read the rest of the passage. None of it refers to the Eucharist, but rather to the animal sacrifices of the Levitical priesthood.

Great points, thanks Father.

Peace

[Reedolo]

Originally Posted by tlj009

I believe we are looking a secondary authorities and not the final authority. The final authority is God the father, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit. The Church (not necessarily RCC) is authenticated by the Holy Spirit and the Bible is authenticated by the same Holy Spirit. One cannot in itself deny the other. Ultimately God must be received by faith, which brings up the other half of your original question.

We're talking about authorities that are available to us. God is the final authority ultimately, but we're talking about what is the final authority on God... because God doesnt speak to us individually and give us instruction... He speaks to us through the Church and through the word of Sacred Scripture (but I am in no way advocating private interpretation, that's a totally different matter).

I believe the Bible is completely authenticated by the Church. The Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit, but the Bible came from the Catholic Church and must be understood within the context of the Church. If God had meant for the Bible to be understood apart from the Catholic Church, then He would have found another way to establish the canon of Scripture without using the Catholic Church as His instrument. But since God gave us the Bible through the Catholic Church, then I must understand the Bible as the Catholic Church understands it. To do otherwise would be to take Scripture out of the context in which God gave it to us.

peace

[tlj009]

"We're talking about authorities that are available to us. God is the final authority ultimately, but we're talking about what is the final authority on God... because God doesn’t speak to us individually and give us instruction... He speaks to us through the Church and through the word of Sacred Scripture (but I am in no way advocating private interpretation, that's a totally different matter)."

God does speak to us individually and guide us in everything we do. If he doesn't then we are not listening. The Church is made up of all Christians and not just a few members leading the RCC. If I believe anything that a priest says then it is because I can feel the Holy Spirit speaking through him. If anyone admits to speaking anything that doesn't come from the Holy Spirit then I have reason to doubt what they are saying. The Holy Spirit is a witness to the Truth.

The Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit. When the Church collected the books of the Bible, they were led to do so by the Holy Spirit. That doesn't mean that everything the RCC does is infallible, but only the Holy Spirit that works through the Church is infallible.

The reason there are different denominations is because people rely on other people, church leaders, older members, etc. instead of looking to the source for their answers. The Holy Spirit was given to all Christians not just the elite.

[Demon_Hunter]

Originally Posted by Reedolo

We're talking about authorities that are available to us. God is the final authority ultimately, but we're talking about what is the final authority on God... because God doesnt speak to us individually and give us instruction... He speaks to us through the Church and through the word of Sacred Scripture (but I am in no way advocating private interpretation, that's a totally different matter).

So the only way to know the Lords will for our lives is to go thru a church comprised of fallible human beings who have egos, and agendas? Im not just talking RCC, the protestant churches are full of that aswell.

I believe the Bible is completely authenticated by the Church. The Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit, but the Bible came from the Catholic Church and must be understood within the context of the Church.

You said your self that for something to be the finnal authority that it must be self authenticating. How exactly does the church self-authenticate? Simply claiming to be the final authority does not make it so. Only the Word of the Lord may grant authority to any[body]/organization, or individual.

If God had meant for the Bible to be understood apart from the Catholic Church, then He would have found another way to establish the canon of Scripture without using the Catholic Church as His instrument.

Oh ok, so this explains why for thousands of years individuals had been responsible for studying the scriptures, and understanding the will of the Lord. This without the help of a massive worldwide church.

But since God gave us the Bible through the Catholic Church, then I must understand the Bible as the Catholic Church understands it. To do otherwise would be to take Scripture out of the context in which God gave it to us.

peace

The word of God came thru his prophets and Apostles individually. These are the words of the Lord (the one God that we all worship, being the one Almighty God, and the Creator, and Savior of us all) that reveal his will for our lives. And that may seem hyprocritical of me to say that considering my earlier comment about men with egos and agendas, but I will stand by this anyways. The Word of God was not produced thru the RCC, or the Church in general.

These were revelations made to individual men who lived holy lives before the Lord. Certainly the Lord guided the church in assembling the books that we know today as the bible, but that does not mean that the church alone (The RCC as a governing body over the saints) are the only ones with the authority, or ability granted by God to interpret scripture.


I know that you said you wanted a catholic opinion on this issue, and I am sorry if my post here goes against what you requested. I felt, however, that I needed to respond to your comments, and I felt that I have adressed what you said, directly. I did not run off on tangents that adressed other issues, besides the ones that you brought up.