[catholicpriest]

I was speaking with some priest friends of mine at a deanery meeting recently, and we were discussing the possibility that we might be in the midst of a transcendental shift in the course of history. With the ever increasing growth of secularism not only in the world, but also within the Church, are we now experiencing the Great Apostasy that St. Paul speaks about in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and again in 1 Timothy 4:1?

St. Augustine taught that the parable of the wheat and the tares applied to the Church, and that there would always be tares present among the wheat within the Church. However, it seems like the tares are now outnumbering the wheat, and we now find ourselves in an ever shrinking Church. So, the question I'm putting out there is this:

Are we experiencing the Great Apostasy that will precede the return of Christ, as foretold by St. Paul?

Comments please.

[Reedolo]

Originally Posted by catholicpriest

I was speaking with some priest friends of mine at a deanery meeting recently, and we were discussing the possibility that we might be in the midst of a transcendental shift in the course of history. With the ever increasing growth of secularism not only in the world, but also within the Church, are we now experiencing the Great Apostasy that St. Paul speaks about in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and again in 1 Timothy 4:1?

St. Augustine taught that the parable of the wheat and the tares applied to the Church, and that there would always be tares present among the wheat within the Church. However, it seems like the tares are now outnumbering the wheat, and we now find ourselves in an ever shrinking Church. So, the question I'm putting out there is this:

Are we experiencing the Great Apostasy that will precede the return of Christ, as foretold by St. Paul?

Comments please.

That's an interesting thought.

I always thought that when we get close to the return of Christ, the Church will undergo great persecution, or tribulation, and so the "wheat" will remain even under persecution, but the "tares" or the "weeds" will flee when the going gets rough. The world will begin to persecute Christians (most notably Catholic Christians) very harshly, and Catholics will be killed and tortured and so forth. It will be like it was in the first few centuries of the Catholic Church's existence, when Catholics had to practice their faith in secret. And then the true believers will be separated from the false, and the wheat will be separated from the tare. So the Church will undergo a great tribulation and purification before the close of the age. At least that's how I've always understood it.

By the way I don't believe in the "Rapture" that evangelicals say will happen before the great tribulation. I think the rapture is a completely unbiblical doctrine, and it's a very new idea and the Church has never taught it. But that's for another thread.

Take care everyone!

Reed

[catholicpriest]

Originally Posted by Reedolo

That's an interesting thought.

I always thought that when we get close to the return of Christ, the Church will undergo great persecution, or tribulation, and so the "wheat" will remain even under persecution, but the "tares" or the "weeds" will flee when the going gets rough. The world will begin to persecute Christians (most notably Catholic Christians) very harshly, and Catholics will be killed and tortures and so forth. It will be like it was in the first few centuries of the Catholic Church's existence, when Catholics had to practice their faith in secret. And then the true believers will be separated from the false, and the wheat will be separated from the tare. So the Church will undergo a great tribulation and purification before the close of the age. At least that's how I've always understood it.

By the way I don't believe in the "Rapture" that evangelicals say will happen before the great tribulation. I think the rapture is a completely unbiblical doctrine, and it's a very new idea and the Church has never taught it. But that's for another thread.

Take care everyone!

Reed

Nice post, Reed.

I wonder at times exactly how far away we are from the great persecution, or the Great Tribulation as many Evangelicals call it. I don't believe in the Rapture either. Nowhere in Scripture does Christ tell us that He will rescue us from persecution. Rather, it's just the opposite. He tells us to expect persecution and that the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. But you're right... maybe we should start another thread on that topic.

When I was involved with the Assemblies of God Pentecostals, many moons ago, there was a general expectation that there would be an "end-times revival" in the Church just before the Rapture. However, once again, the Scriptures tell us nothing about an end-times revival, but rather of an end-times Apostasy, a time when the true faith would be abandoned and believers persecuted.

Indeed, the wheat and the tares will co-exist within the Church until such time. However, I believe that the persecution will provide a catharsis, and will drive out of the Church all of the "cultural Catholics" and "cafeteria-Catholics", and generally apostate Catholics who are still hanging around despite the fact that many don't live Christian lives.

I specifically am concerned about our own times however, because our own times are marked by a satanic secularism that denies not only the holy and sacred, but also denies the existence of sin. Sin is no longer a personal offense against God, but rather some kind of social disfunction that can be cured through government programs.

I also look at the re-emergence of Gnosticism in our own time as a possible sign from the Book of Revelation. Revelation 13 tells us of the First Beast, and that, "one of its heads seemed to have been mortally wounded, but this mortal wound was healed." (verse 3)

In 1 John 2:22-23, St. John makes a veiled reference to the Gnostics, calling them the anti-Christ. Therefore, the Gnostics were really the first group ever to be called "anti-Christ." St. Paul also refers to the "man of lawlessness" or an individual anti-Christ who will come in the last days. The Book of Revelation joins these two views of anti-Christ in the vision of the two beasts. The first beast appears to be the anti-Christ system, while the second beast appears to be the actual person who will be called Anti-Christ.

Revelation 13:3 makes reference to the seemingly mortal head-wound suffered by the First Beast (Gnosticism). The Second Beast is possibly a neo-Gnostic messiah figure who will claim to have secret knowledge (derived from the First Beast) that will save the world. The interesting thing is that Gnosticism was a dead anti-Christ religion for about 1700 years until the library at Nag Hammadi, Egypt was discovered by archaeologists in 1945. That is when the Gnostic Gospels were rediscovered, and today their popularity is once again challenging orthodox Christianity. Has the seemingly mortal head-wound of the First Beast finally healed?

Remember the stir caused by, The DaVinci Code, when it was published a few years ago? The DaVinci Code is basically a mixture of neo-Gnostic gobble-dee-gook, and feminist theology, but it has proven itself to be an effective vehicle for the re-emergence of Gnostic thought - and that was just the book. I don't have any stats on hand, but I would imagine that for every person that reads a book, about a thousand watch a movie. So, once the movie is released in less than a month, I am expecting to see a tsunami of interest in Gnostic literature and thought flood the marketplace of ideas. Gnosticism will be back in full force once this movie is released, however I am praying that it will be a box office flop.

Imagine for a moment though - Gnosticism: dead for the better half of two millenia, suddenly released upon the world once again: the original anti-Christ religious system once again on the move. It's almost as if the archaeologists who opened the earth at Nag Hammadi also breached the gates of Hell, and have unknowingly released the Anti-Christ from his subterranean chamber to once again roam the earth.

By the way, these are not the teachings of the Catholic Church. They are just my own personal reflections on the events of our time. Any other thoughts out there?

[Reedolo]

Originally Posted by catholicpriest

Nice post, Reed.

I wonder at times exactly how far away we are from the great persecution, or the Great Tribulation as many Evangelicals call it. I don't believe in the Rapture either. Nowhere in Scripture does Christ tell us that He will rescue us from persecution. Rather, it's just the opposite. He tells us to expect persecution and that the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. But you're right... maybe we should start another thread on that topic.

When I was involved with the Assemblies of God Pentecostals, many moons ago, there was a general expectation that there would be an "end-times revival" in the Church just before the Rapture. However, once again, the Scriptures tell us nothing about an end-times revival, but rather of an end-times Apostasy, a time when the true faith would be abandoned and believers persecuted.

Indeed, the wheat and the tares will co-exist within the Church until such time. However, I believe that the persecution will provide a catharsis, and will drive out of the Church all of the "cultural Catholics" and "cafeteria-Catholics", and generally apostate Catholics who are still hanging around despite the fact that many don't live Christian lives.

I specifically am concerned about our own times however, because our own times are marked by a satanic secularism that denies not only the holy and sacred, but also denies the existence of sin. Sin is no longer a personal offense against God, but rather some kind of social disfunction that can be cured through government programs.

I also look at the re-emergence of Gnosticism in our own time as a possible sign from the Book of Revelation. Revelation 13 tells us of the First Beast, and that, "one of its heads seemed to have been mortally wounded, but this mortal wound was healed." (verse 3)

In 1 John 2:22-23, St. John makes a veiled reference to the Gnostics, calling them the anti-Christ. Therefore, the Gnostics were really the first group ever to be called "anti-Christ." St. Paul also refers to the "man of lawlessness" or an individual anti-Christ who will come in the last days. The Book of Revelation joins these two views of anti-Christ in the vision of the two beasts. The first beast appears to be the anti-Christ system, while the second beast appears to be the actual person who will be called Anti-Christ.

Revelation 13:3 makes reference to the seemingly mortal head-wound suffered by the First Beast (Gnosticism). The Second Beast is possibly a neo-Gnostic messiah figure who will claim to have secret knowledge (derived from the First Beast) that will save the world. The interesting thing is that Gnosticism was a dead anti-Christ religion for about 1700 years until the library at Nag Hammadi, Egypt was discovered by archaeologists in 1945. That is when the Gnostic Gospels were rediscovered, and today their popularity is once again challenging orthodox Christianity. Has the seemingly mortal head-wound of the First Beast finally healed?

Remember the stir caused by, The DaVinci Code, when it was published a few years ago? The DaVinci Code is basically a mixture of neo-Gnostic gobble-dee-gook, and feminist theology, but it has proven itself to be an effective vehicle for the re-emergence of Gnostic thought - and that was just the book. I don't have any stats on hand, but I would imagine that for every person that reads a book, about a thousand watch a movie. So, once the movie is released in less than a month, I am expecting to see a tsunami of interest in Gnostic literature and thought flood the marketplace of ideas. Gnosticism will be back in full force once this movie is released, however I am praying that it will be a box office flop.

Imagine for a moment though - Gnosticism: dead for the better half of two millenia, suddenly released upon the world once again: the original anti-Christ religious system once again on the move. It's almost as if the archaeologists who opened the earth at Nag Hammadi also breached the gates of Hell, and have unknowingly released the Anti-Christ from his subterranean chamber to once again roam the earth.

By the way, these are not the teachings of the Catholic Church. They are just my own personal reflections on the events of our time. Any other thoughts out there?

Wow. I would like to know more about Gnosticism. Why do you consider it an "Anti-Christ Religion"?

Do you think it will ever come to the point where people hate Catholics so much that our faith will actually be illegalized all over the world? It's already happening in China and places in Africa, right?

Anyway, more on Gnosticism!! I need to know about this. I'm thinking about reading the da vinci code and/or seeing the movie just because I need to know what I'm up against.

Take care

[catholicpriest]

Just another thought about the coming persecution:

I can already see it beginning in America. The U.S. Supreme Court has already heard cases that would go after the Catholic Church on a number of issues, such as:

1. Racketeering: The Pro-Abortion forces have tried to have the RICO statutes applied to the Church, so they could go after pro-life activists. Fortunately, the Court has come down in our favor - for now. It could only be a matter of time however, before things change.

2. Catholic Hospitals that don't perform abortions will be seen as targets for law-suits and perhaps criminal charges. These waters are already being tested as well.

3. In Massachusetts, Cardinal O'Malley has stated that Catholic adoption agencies will not allow homosexual couples to adopt children. This, however, is in conflict with state law, and is going to be interesting to watch over the next few months.

4. The Catholic Church refuses to recognize or witness homosexual marriages. This is another area that could become troublesome for the Church in years to come, as homosexual marriages and civil unions become more and more accepted in society.

5. Catholic schools and universities that refuse to hire active homosexuals will eventually be persecuted under so-called anti-discrimination laws.

The list goes on, but I hope this makes the point. The persecution of the American Church is on the horizon. It's no longer a matter of if, but of when and to what extent.

[Reedolo]

By the way, regarding the "Rapture"... There's a great book called The Rapture Trap by Paul Thigpen, who is a former evangelical Protestant pastor who entered the Catholic Church in 1993. It tells all about the rapture theory and its flaws, and it has helped me understand what is really going to happen in the End Times. You guys can find the book at http://www.aquinasandmore.com.

[Reedolo]

Originally Posted by catholicpriest

Just another thought about the coming persecution:

I can already see it beginning in America. The U.S. Supreme Court has already heard cases that would go after the Catholic Church on a number of issues, such as:

1. Racketeering: The Pro-Abortion forces have tried to have the RICO statutes applied to the Church, so they could go after pro-life activists. Fortunately, the Court has come down in our favor - for now. It could only be a matter of time however, before things change.

2. Catholic Hospitals that don't perform abortions will be seen as targets for law-suits and perhaps criminal charges. These waters are already being tested as well.

3. In Massachusetts, Cardinal O'Malley has stated that Catholic adoption agencies will not allow homosexual couples to adopt children. This, however, is in conflict with state law, and is going to be interesting to watch over the next few months.

4. The Catholic Church refuses to recognize or witness homosexual marriages. This is another area that could become troublesome for the Church in years to come, as homosexual marriages and civil unions become more and more accepted in society.

5. Catholic schools and universities that refuse to hire active homosexuals will eventually be persecuted under so-called anti-discrimination laws.

The list goes on, but I hope this makes the point. The persecution of the American Church is on the horizon. It's no longer a matter of if, but of when and to what extent.

Yeah, wow. It's obvious that society is moving in the wrong direction and of course the Church isn't going to budge. That could cause a lot of problems.

What are RICO statutes?

[catholicpriest]

Originally Posted by Reedolo

Wow. I would like to know more about Gnosticism. Why do you consider it an "Anti-Christ Religion"?

Do you think it will ever come to the point where people hate Catholics so much that our faith will actually be illegalized all over the world? It's already happening in China and places in Africa, right?

Anyway, more on Gnosticism!! I need to know about this. I'm thinking about reading the da vinci code and/or seeing the movie just because I need to know what I'm up against.

Take care

Well, the Gnostics were a loosely organized group of pagans who believed that salvation was achieved through the learning of secret knowledge. The Greek word, gnosis, means knowledge. Actually, the Gnostics pre-existed Christianity, but eventually came to see Christianity as a good vehicle to promote their own esoteric religious beliefs - so they married Gnosticism with Christianity and came up with their own weird blend of pseudo-Christian garbage. They actually did this while the Apostles were still alive, and St. Paul and St. John themselves took shots at the Gnostics in some of their writings. Just off the top of my head, I can recall St. Paul taking a shot at the Gnostics in his first Letter to Timothy:

O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid profane babbling and the absurdities of so-called knowledge. By professing it, some people have deviated from the faith. 1 Tim 6:20-21

Gnosticism was a real threat to the first century Church, to as far back as Apostolic times.

Among their primary beliefs, the Gnostics believed:

1. That there was a dualistic battle between the equal forces of good and evil.

2. The spirit was good and the body was evil.

3. Jesus Christ was not a real man, but was a ghost or a phantasm who just appeared to be a human.

4. God would never lower Himself to the level of taking on human flesh, because human flesh is evil.

5. Jesus Christ did not rise from the dead, because the body is something to be shed, not re-united with.

6. The God of the Old Testament (the God of the Jews) was an evil demi-urge who created the world against the will of God, and Jesus Christ came to give us secret knowledge on how to escape this evil world and return to the perfect world of pure spirit.

St. John referred to the Gnostics in both his first and second epistles, but his most clear condemnation of the Gnostics came in 2 John 1:7, where he says:

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

This is a clear reference to the Gnostics, whose primary teaching was that Jesus Christ was not a real, flesh & blood, human being, but rather a phantasm or ghost who simply appeared to be a man.

The Gospel of John was also written with the Gnostics in mind. John wrote his Gospel probably between the years A.D. 80-90, when he would have been an old man in his 70's. At this time, however, Gnosticism was strong. The strong emphasis that St. John puts on the flesh of Christ in his Gospel can be seen as a veiled challenge to the Gnostics. For example:

1. John's Gospel begins by saying (in Greek philosophical terms, nonetheless - terms that the Gnostics would have understood) that the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. (The "Word" was originally a Greek philosophical term employed by the Stoics) John begins his Gospel with a shot across the Gnostics' bow. The Word did indeed become flesh. He was not a ghost or a phantasm - but a man! With real flesh!

2. John also drives home the centrality of eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Christ for salvation. In other words, salvation does not come through obtaining secret knowledge, you stupid Gnostics! It comes through eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Christ - the same flesh and blood that you Gnostics say Christ didn't even possess!

3. At the end of John's Gospel, Jesus presents himself to "doubting" Thomas. Thomas refused to believe that Christ had risen from the dead (sounds a lot like the Gnostics, doesn't it?). However, John writes that Jesus presented Himself to Thomas, risen from the dead, bearing His wounds to Thomas. The imagery is unmistakable. Jesus Christ appeared in order to remove all doubt from Thomas, and presented him with His wounds as proof that it was really He who had, in absolute fact, risen from the dead.

The flesh and blood of Christ play a central theme in John's Gospel, probably because John was dealing with a group of people who denied the reality of Christ's flesh and blood, and were posing a threat to his own group of believers. John was now an old man, and was close to death. He wanted to write a Gospel that would send a clear message to Christians that would stand in stark contrast to the false gospel of the Gnostics.

I could write a lot more, but I'll end it there for now, and wait for some responses. Catch you later, Reed.

Oh, by the way, St. Irenaeus is a great source for information on the Christian response to the Gnostics. He totally blasts the Gnostics in his book, Against Heresies. The interesting thing about Irenaeus is that he was a second generation bishop in direct succession from St. John. St. Irenaeus was a student of St. Polycarp, and Polycarp was a student of St. John. Therefore, Irenaeus' writings about the Gnostics are probably a very good indication of what St. John thought about the Gnostics as well.

[catholicpriest]

Originally Posted by Reedolo

Yeah, wow. It's obvious that society is moving in the wrong direction and of course the Church isn't going to budge. That could cause a lot of problems.

What are RICO statutes?

Ahh... RICO stands for "Racketeering Influenced Corrupt Organizations", and the RICO statutes were specifically enacted in order to help the government go after the Mafia. However, pro-abortion forces want them to be used now to go after pro-life activists and the Catholic Church.

[Reedolo]

Originally Posted by catholicpriest

Oh, by the way, St. Irenaeus is a great source for information on the Christian response to the Gnostics. He totally blasts the Gnostics in his book, Against Heresies. The interesting thing about Irenaeus is that he was a second generation bishop in direct succession from St. John. St. Irenaeus was a student of St. Polycarp, and Polycarp was a student of St. John. Therefore, Irenaeus' writings about the Gnostics are probably a very good indication of what St. John thought about the Gnostics as well.

That's all so interesting!! Especially about the writings of St. Irenaeus. I've been wanting to read some writings of the early Church fathers... that's something a lot of us converts like to do at some point, it seems . It's on my list of to-do's, I've just been so busy with classes and finals coming up that I haven't had time to read much of anything that I've wanted to read.

Ya know, I wish I did believe in the rapture. If I did I would be praying with all my might right now for Christ to come and take me away before my finals tomorrow .

I'll post more on this topic later on, like maybe tomorrow after my finals, If i'm still alive.

peace

[goldenchild]

I think we are definitely at a time of great apostasy, even within the Church. Is this the end of the world? I don't necessarily think so.

[Reedolo]

WOOHOO!! I SURVIVED!!

So I was wondering, how exactly is Gnosticism incorporated into the Da Vinci Code? Have any of you guys read the book or plan to see the movie?

[catholicpriest]

Originally Posted by Reedolo

WOOHOO!! I SURVIVED!!

So I was wondering, how exactly is Gnosticism incorporated into the Da Vinci Code? Have any of you guys read the book or plan to see the movie?

Congratulations, Reed! Man, I'm glad I don't have to take exams anymore I'm not trying to rub it in though

I read, The Da Vinci Code, a couple of years ago, and I actually do plan on watching the movie just so I can respond to people about it. In brief, the book incorporates the Gnostic belief in salvation through secret knowledge. It also relies on information from various Gnostic gospels, and insinuates that the Church intentionally hid the truth of the Gnostic gospels from the world. The gnosticism in the book, however, is not pure gnosticism. It is a blend of gnosticism, feminist theology, and paranoid conspiracy theories, all wrapped into a neat little package.

[Reedolo]

Here's a question for catholicpriest or any knowledgable Catholic, and this is related to the thread topic so I'll post it here...

What exactly is meant by the terms premillennialism, amillennialism, and postmillennialism? I think I have an idea of what this means but i'm not exactly sure. And is it true that the Catholic church holds the Amillennialist view?

Thanks and God bless.

Reed

[Reedolo]

Originally Posted by catholicpriest

Congratulations, Reed! Man, I'm glad I don't have to take exams anymore I'm not trying to rub it in though

I read, The Da Vinci Code, a couple of years ago, and I actually do plan on watching the movie just so I can respond to people about it. In brief, the book incorporates the Gnostic belief in salvation through secret knowledge. It also relies on information from various Gnostic gospels, and insinuates that the Church intentionally hid the truth of the Gnostic gospels from the world. The gnosticism in the book, however, is not pure gnosticism. It is a blend of gnosticism, feminist theology, and paranoid conspiracy theories, all wrapped into a neat little package.

I'm thinking about reading it for the same reason. I went to Target today to buy a copy, and on the shelf with it were some non-fiction books that looked to me as if they might be gnostic-related books. They were The Jesus Papers : Exposing the Greatest Cover-Up in History by Michael Baigent, Holy Blood, Holy Grail by Michael Baigent, and The Secret Supper by Javier Sierra. The first two are non-fiction, the last one is a novel. I read the backs of these books, and they all seem to indicate that there are secret teachinigs of Jesus that the Church has been hiding for centuries. I looked them up online when I got home and they're all on the top sellers. Has anyone read these books and would like to comment on them? Are they related to Gnosticism?

Peace, all