[Gains238]

well, my meeting with the Mormon's went less than stellar. I think they might of beaten me today. No fear though, never give up!

I need help with two things. I need you guys to help me with disproving their idea of three heavens, or if this is true, verses helping explain to me what it is exactly. The foundational basis of the idea of there being three heavens is located in 1 Corinthians 15:40-41, which is taken WAY out of context but then Paul says stuff2 corinthians 12:2 about the third heaven. What do you guys know about the third heaven?

And then I need verses on how your only chance to get to heaven is on Earth. In John 5:25-28 it talks about the people who are already dead being able to hear Jesus voice and join Him in heaven. It is not just spiritual death, but physical death because it says that they will raise from their graves. Another verse is in 1 Peter 3:19-20 . Now, if the gentiles had God's spirit from the beginning, then why did Jesus have to do this? Why doesn't Jesus do it now? I need verses about having only one chance.

Then, they asked me how come they are the only religion that has apostles and prophets. Why is that?

Thanks guys.

[Simo]

Originally Posted by Gains238

Then, they asked me how come they are the only religion that has apostles and prophets. Why is that?

They are not. There are plenty of 'prophets and apostles' in Christianity. The terms are not so much used as a title or a position but rather a gifting. Im sure in other religions there are too..

[Dice]

People back in OT times viewed the skies in two ways. There is the atmosphere where we are, where the birds fly--this is the first heaven. Then there is the place where the stars are--this is the second heaven. Then there is the place where God dwells--The third heaven. I'd assume this carried over to Paul.

Genesis 1
6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

Psalm 148
1 Praise the LORD.
Praise the LORD from the heavens,
praise him in the heights above.
2 Praise him, all his angels,
praise him, all his heavenly hosts.
3 Praise him, sun and moon,
praise him, all you shining stars.
4 Praise him, you highest heavens
and you waters above the skies.

[jengoesup]

Originally Posted by Gains238

Then, they asked me how come they are the only religion that has apostles and prophets. Why is that?

Try telling that to the Islam community

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by Dice

People back in OT times viewed the skies in two ways. There is the atmosphere where we are, where the birds fly--this is the first heaven. Then there is the place where the stars are--this is the second heaven. Then there is the place where God dwells--The third heaven. I'd assume this carried over to Paul.

Not people in the OT times. They just thought there was one heaven, which was the name for the physical structure of the sky. "And God called the firmament (raqia) heaven (shamayam, also means sky)." There is water above heaven, and the raqia's job is to divide the water above it from the water below it. Note that God floods the earth by opening up windows in the raqia and stops the flood by closing them.

The birds fly "accross the face" of the shamayam (heaven), not in a separate shamayam. Your psalm quote also supports this cosmology, which was common throughout all the near east during the time the OT was written.

In late antiquity you start getting ideas of multiple heavens, from both Jewish writers and Christians (many Jewish apocryphal writings mention three or seven heavens as well). This is probably because Greek astronomers believed that the earth was surrounded by multiple crystal spheres (i.e. multiple heavens), which corresponded to the orbits of the heavenly bodies around the earth. But this is not the same cosmology that's found in the OT or any other ancient near-eastern text.

[FilltheEarth]

Prophetic and Revival:


(This is a list of well-known ministries that claim prophetic status, some are false and some are true, so use discretion.)

Prophetic and Revival:

Elijah List Free-flowing prophetic encouragement list
Next Reformation Network
Storm Harvest a plethora of quality writings and prophecies
The Order of the Mustard Seed Count Zinzendorf's holy secret society lives! "True to Christ, Kind to people, Gospel to the nations"
The Heresy Ditto the above, a genuine clearinghouse
Padion Tritto That! (...tritto?)
Revelation of the Lost Keys an excellent online prophetic book/site by Kevin Paul
The Mercy Site Contemplative prayer for evangelicals; particularly focuses on intersections between intercessory prayer, prophetic listening, and contemplative prayer
Godspeak Prophetic school and list with a strong emphasis on the priesthood of all believers; bravo!
Communion With God Mark and Patti Virkler (Practical teaching on lectio divina and listening for God’s prophetic speaking.)
Indwelt
Awakening1s Ron & Karen Rohman
Art Katz Apostolic Community, Apocalypse, & Messianic perspective
Friends of the Bridegroom Passion For Jesus & Contemplation
IHOP Network No, not the pancakes silly: International House of Prayer Network
Cherubim Network
PropheticOnline.com Prophetic Words on the ecclesia of God
New Zealand Revival Bulletin
Prophetic Supersite
Breakthrough Prayer Ministries
Shoulder-To-Shoulder
Tareburner
New Earth Tribe
Kairos Magazine
Spread The Fire Magazine Toronto
Joel News
The Renewed Network
The Jesus Army
Trumpet Call
Healing Rooms
Christian Healing Ministries Francis and Judith MacNutt
Disciple The Nations (Canada)
New Wine Place
The Call Revolution
The Call Netherlands
Mercy Place Don Nori & Dian Layton
Divine Voice Jason Aldridge and Jennifer Otto
Bridge Builders International
Open Heaven Ron & Barbara McGatlin
John G. Lake Healing Home Jerry and Mary Breeden
John G. Lake Ministries
ICN Ministries with Michael Brown
Lapstone Ministries Dreams and Interpretation
RevivalTheology.com Classic books on revival by Whitfield, Finney, et al
Watchword.org Revival authors, history, and current
24-7 Prayer
Mantle Of Praise
Mountain of Worship South Carolina
Eternal Effect
Prayer For All People
Reformed & Embracing Spiritual Gifts
Soaking & Seeking
Apocalipsis Reformed Charismatic
Shulamite Martha Kilpatrick
Bethel Church Redding, CA Bill Johnson
A Place Called Hope Miami, Florida
Kingdom Come Ministries Pacific Northwest US
Spirit Connect Church-planting initiatives
End-Times Prophetic Vision
Prophetic Roundtable
DAWN The DAWN FRIDAYFAX goes to about 7 million people
Reformed Charismatic Bloggers and More Reformed Charismatic Bloggers
Signs, Wonders, and Spiritual Gifts One of the best, and most succinct scriptural summations of signs, wonders, and spiritual gifts I've ever read.
Vineyard Papers Solid discussions on controversial issues like answering criticism and the miraculous
Transfiguration, Glory, & Gold Dust What does the gold dust/tooth filling phenomenon have in common with the Hesychasts of the Orthodox Church? Ill bet you’re wondering!
Jericho Ministry
Temple Stones Australia
Apostles Gathering
In His Name
Pneuma Journal
Ruach (Breath of Life) Ministries
Pacific Northwest Revival Ministries
Elijah List Prophetic Links
Pam Clark's Prophetic Links
Revival WebRing
Prophetic WebRing
Consuming Fire WebRing

Prophetic Personal Sites In Alphabetical Order:

Doug Addison
Heidi & Rolland Baker
Chip Brogden
Ken Brown
Wes & Stacey Campell
Mahesh & Bonnie Chavda
Michael Clark
Pam Clark
Randy Clark
Kim Clement
Bobby Conner
Graham Cooke
Steve & Gwendolyn Corgan
George Davis
Keith Davis
Jack Deere
Mike Ellis
Lou Engle
John Enslow
Kingsley Fletcher
Doug Fortune
Francis Frangipane
Jim Goll
Dudley Hall
The late Ruth Ward Heflin
SJ Hill
Ray Hughes
John Paul Jackson
Rick Joyner
Bob Jones (not the university!)
Art Katz and Simon Hensman
Martha Kilpatrick
Troy and Theresa Laplante
Ron McKenzie
John Moore
Larry Randolph
Mickey Robinson
Malcolm Smith
Sam Storms Perhaps the most influential charismatic Calvinist
Chad Taylor
Jack Taylor
Wade Taylor
Sandy Warner
Roger Whipp
Gary Wiens

[FilltheEarth]

This is what I was taught:

1st Heaven:	Earth's Atmosphere
2nd Heaven:	Outer Space
3rd Heaven:	Abode of God

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by FilltheEarth

This is what I was taught:

Can you support any of this biblically?

[FilltheEarth]

Originally Posted by Qingu

Can you support any of this biblically?

Off the cuff, without digging in and getting tons of verses,
I think it's pretty easy to support that at least one version of the Biblical usage of the word "heaven" easily pertains to "the sky" rather than some supernatural place. For instance, in Genesis, when God created the "birds of the heavens." That sort of thing. So that's where the idea that the lowest, or "first" heaven, is probably just the sky, the atmosphere.

Support for the 2nd heaven being outer space is basically by inference. By contrast, I've known ministries that insisted the second heaven is not outer space, but a spiritual realm in which angels and demons battle over the earth, which would be infered by verses such as, "principalities and powers in spiritual places." But the data is scanty here, once again being inferential.

The third heaven being truly, "heavenly" in the sense that we normally think of heaven is based on Paul's description that the man caught up into the third heaven saw "unspeakable things" blah blah blah...

Since there is no major doctrine being addressed in all this that any of us HAVE to get nailed down, (or else scripture would have addressed it far more directly) basically ANYONE's views on the heavens are mostly conjecture and inference - and that would include the mormons weak stand on the issue as well.

My goal in presenting this was not to convince someone that my view IS INDEED the case, but more to simply present that there are plenty of perfectly reasonable available paradigms that have no less and no more support than anything the mormons would claim.

Heather

[FilltheEarth]

And then if you wanna get REALLY weird you could turn to the pseudopigrapha, which has a really detailed and worked out view on the various heavens, except there there are *7* heavens instead of only 3, and the benefit you get from considering this approach is that the pseudopigrapha pre-dates any mormon writing by almost or over 2000 years.... while at the same time being mostly untrue anyway.

http://www.revelationofjohn.com/Psuedo.htm#_8b

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by FilltheEarth

Off the cuff, without digging in and getting tons of verses,
I think it's pretty easy to support that at least one version of the Biblical usage of the word "heaven" easily pertains to "the sky" rather than some supernatural place. For instance, in Genesis, when God created the "birds of the heavens." That sort of thing. So that's where the idea that the lowest, or "first" heaven, is probably just the sky, the atmosphere.

Can you cite the verse you're talking about? Gen 1:20 has God create birds: "and let birds fly above the earth across the dome of the sky." But the birds do not fly in heaven. The fly accross the face of the firmament, which is named heaven.

Similarly, we don't live in the earth, we walk accross the surface of the earth.

Support for the 2nd heaven being outer space is basically by inference. By contrast, I've known ministries that insisted the second heaven is not outer space, but a spiritual realm in which angels and demons battle over the earth, which would be infered by verses such as, "principalities and powers in spiritual places." But the data is scanty here, once again being inferential.

Well, Gen 1 says quite clearly that God places the sun, moon and all the visible stars inside the firmament, which is called heaven. This is the same firmament that birds fly underneath and above which there is water.

I don't see how this is a second heaven, the text says it's the only heaven. (By the way, the Hebrew word for heaven, shamayam, is always plural. But it refers to a single structure, the firmament, or raqia).

The third heaven being truly, "heavenly" in the sense that we normally think of heaven is based on Paul's description that the man caught up into the third heaven saw "unspeakable things" blah blah blah...

I think it's entirely possible that Paul was writing in a Greek philosophical cosmology, with an idea of multiple heavens. However, you still need to reconcile this with Genesis 1, with the verses I quoted.

Since there is no major doctrine being addressed in all this that any of us HAVE to get nailed down, (or else scripture would have addressed it far more directly) basically ANYONE's views on the heavens are mostly conjecture and inference - and that would include the mormons weak stand on the issue as well.

Why is it conjecture and inference? Genesis 1 makes it very clear that heaven is the name of a solid structure, the raqia, which God "stretched out" to separate the waters above it from the waters below it. The waters below became the oceans, and the waters above were used to flood the earth when God opened the windows in the raqia. They are still there because God has to close the windows to stop the flood in Gen 9. Also, God puts all the heavenly bodies inside the raqia, and birds fly "accross the face" of the raqia, which obviously means underneath it. The raqia is called "shamayam," or "heaven." And God lives inside of it.

This is exactly what the text says. And it makes a lot of sense, from the perspective of an ignorant desert nomad. I would certainly believe it, if I were an ancient Israelite.

My goal in presenting this was not to convince someone that my view IS INDEED the case, but more to simply present that there are plenty of perfectly reasonable available paradigms that have no less and no more support than anything the mormons would claim.

But you need to reconcile them with what the Bible says, right?

[Gains238]

So does anyone have anything on the whole "one shot on earth" stuff that I need? They keep thinking that you can get another chance after you die...isn't that untrue? Can I get some verses from someone maybe?

[ICTHUS]

Originally Posted by Simo

They are not. There are plenty of 'prophets and apostles' in Christianity. The terms are not so much used as a title or a position but rather a gifting. Im sure in other religions there are too..

Actually, both you and the Mormons are incorrect. This is a false dilemma, as both of those offices have ceased.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Gains238

well, my meeting with the Mormon's went less than stellar. I think they might of beaten me today. No fear though, never give up!

I need help with two things. I need you guys to help me with disproving their idea of three heavens, or if this is true, verses helping explain to me what it is exactly. The foundational basis of the idea of there being three heavens is located in 1 Corinthians 15:40-41, which is taken WAY out of context but then Paul says stuff2 corinthians 12:2 about the third heaven. What do you guys know about the third heaven?

And then I need verses on how your only chance to get to heaven is on Earth. In John 5:25-28 it talks about the people who are already dead being able to hear Jesus voice and join Him in heaven. It is not just spiritual death, but physical death because it says that they will raise from their graves. Another verse is in 1 Peter 3:19-20 . Now, if the gentiles had God's spirit from the beginning, then why did Jesus have to do this? Why doesn't Jesus do it now? I need verses about having only one chance.

Then, they asked me how come they are the only religion that has apostles and prophets. Why is that?

Thanks guys.

I think you need to know what you believe and why before you just go "battling" Mormons. If you don't really know why something they say is wrong then why do you call it wrong? just because they're mormons?

Like i said...you should cease from talking with them until you get a better grasp on why you're right and they're wrong.

[FilltheEarth]

I'm sure if I wanted to spend any time on this thread, I could prove that firmament = heaven (1st heaven). Plus, your refutation demonstrated that you totally missed my alternative explanation of 2nd heavens not being a physical locale at all, but being the realm of spiritual warfare...go back and read that one again to see what I was saying. But that's ok, because:

Originally Posted by Qingu

This is exactly what the text says. And it makes a lot of sense, from the perspective of an ignorant desert nomad. I would certainly believe it, if I were an ancient Israelite.

Originally Posted by Qingu

So would I! And I'm sure that that's exactly what the ancient Israelites believed (windows in the sky and all.) But they weren't exactly wrong, either. Maybe scientifically incorrect, but when it comes to expressing spiritual truth metaphorically, they were right on. Your problem Qingu is that you try to approach everything from a strictly literalistic approach, without realizing that entire Old Testament is a shadow and a symbol of spiritual realities. (AKA, READ THE BOOK OF HEBREWS - HOW MANY TIMES WILL I ASK YOU TO DO THAT? I'VE BEEN ASKING YOU THIS FOR OVER A YEAR!)

But you need to reconcile them with what the Bible says, right?

For the sake of this particular argument, on this particular thread, the answer is, "not really."

Because the line of argument I am attempting to prove is not a+b+c= d, which would then require me to reconcile my arguments with "d," but more something like, If a + b + c ≠ d, then, c + b + a ≠ d either.
Put more directly, if I can present a semi-plausible argument with little to no scriptural basis, then any other argument needs MORE basis than mine to be assumed more true than mine. So despite the inviability of my argument as so far presented, it still has better support or at least as much of a weak support as the mormon argument, therefore negating the mormon position indirectly.