??? Christians = Egoists ???

XabolitionistX · 11-26-2001, 06:39 PM

I'm going to leave this question short and without stipulation because I think the natural path of this discussion will prove fruitful.

Are Christians Egoists?

It's just that simple.

Jason

Chrysostom · 11-26-2001, 06:46 PM

Generally speaking, yes in practice. They would not be were they following Jesus correctly.

Benny Hicks · 11-26-2001, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Are Christians Egoists?

You'll have to excuse me, but I'm really confused as to what you're asking. Are you asking if Christians in general are egotistical or selfish?

If so, if Christians are seeking God with their whole heart and are loving their neighbors as themselves they should not become selfish. Christians should be God-centered, not self-centered.

Now, as to the way that they really are-that depends on the person. However, I think it would be hard to find someone who said that a "good" Christian will be egotistical.

Am I making any sense or am I missing the point? Sorry if I sound dumb, I apologize ahead of time

Ben

XabolitionistX · 11-26-2001, 09:03 PM

To be an egoist, is to be a person who is ultimately out for the good of your own self interest.

Many Christians follow Christ because they want to go to Heaven. That makes them an egoist. I for example, want to go to Heaven, and in all honesty I admit that the idea of Heaven is a large incentive in many of my actions. That would make me an egoist because I am ultimately seeking gain for myself. On the surface it seems that I'm serving others and sacrificing myself but when you throw the reward of Heaven into the equation my actions could be viewed as being much more selfish.

Is egoism wrong? That's another debate. Feel free to consider it when you post.

Jason

gymnast_girl_27 · 11-26-2001, 09:07 PM

this is very interesting... and a very good point- if there was nothing after death, would we still choose to follow Christ? hmmm... that is something to think about.

Chrysostom · 11-27-2001, 12:33 AM

Jason, i see where you are coming from.

A true Christian should follow just because Jesus called, not to "deserve" or "gain" anything. Yes, we should strive towards the goal, but we should obey simply because Jesus called.

Our Father has not called us to live a life taking His blessings for granted and living in selfish hedonism. The God who created the universe by a single word has commanded us to die today for Him. Will we accept? This, my friend, is the gospel: that Christ died to prevent our condemnation, and so must we die today and take up our respective crosses.

God be praised... i can feel Him rising up in me
john

Revolution · 11-27-2001, 04:05 AM

Prepare the stake - you may have to burn me for heresy!

I couldn't care less if there wasn't a heaven.

Well, you haven't burned me yet, so I'll explain. I believe there is a heaven, and I look forward to going there, but ultimately I say it doesn't matter. Christianity has the power to make my life NOW much more fulfilling, and that counts for a lot. I honestly don't understand heaven - most of it is beyond comprehension by any of us, so to be a Christian for just the reason of getting to heaven would be very strange I think.

So in a nutshell, if someone is only a Christian to get to heaven, then that person is misinformed, as he/she'll not likely get there I fear.

guitarman · 11-27-2001, 08:37 PM

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Prepare the stake - you may have to burn me for heresy!

I have never seen someone burned at the stake. I don't think you're a heretic, but can we burn you at the stake just for kicks? (j/k!)

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I couldn't care less if there wasn't a heaven.

I care!! I can't wait to get there!! My life is so draining!! At times, the fact that I will one day be in heaven with God is the only encouragement that I have.

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Well, you haven't burned me yet, so I'll explain. I believe there is a heaven, and I look forward to going there, but ultimately I say it doesn't matter. Christianity has the power to make my life NOW much more fulfilling, and that counts for a lot.

What is more important to you. Now or eternity?

Quote:

I honestly don't understand heaven - most of it is beyond comprehension by any of us, so to be a Christian for just the reason of getting to heaven would be very strange I think.

Not necessarily. That is the reason that I became a Christian in the first place. I did not want to suffer the consequences of my past sins. Thus, I allowed Christ to be my savior. If you truly trust in Christ as you savior, then His Lordship automatically follows, however, I did not know this at the time

. Either way, it works out fine.

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So in a nutshell, if someone is only a Christian to get to heaven, then that person is misinformed, as he/she'll not likely get there I fear.

Misinformed? Perhaps. Likelyhood of arrival there upon death? Why not? I will be there.

Aaron

gymnast_girl_27 · 11-27-2001, 09:06 PM

well we can't take eternity out of the equation... if there wasn't anything after death, then what would be the point of Christ dying for our sins? however, if following Christ is JUST to get into heaven, then I think there is a problem there too- and I agree that God does make life SOOOOO much better now. =) my life was so empty before I had a relationship with Him. and I look forward to the day when I'll be able to worship Him at His feet!

XabolitionistX · 11-27-2001, 09:42 PM

"Christianity has the power to make my life NOW much more fulfilling, and that counts for a lot."

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not condemning you but the statement you made technically classifies you as an egoist. Whether it be the gift of Heaven, or the gift of a clear conscience. Either way, it benefits you. Once again, I'm not condemning you. I'm not even saying being an egoist is wrong... but that's the point of this post. I want to find out what you all think.

Jason

raz · 11-28-2001, 08:56 AM

You're making a very good point, Jason. Something I've been thinking of recently. This is ultimately a question of motives. For a long time I thought any selfish motive whatsoever in my life was evil, and needed to be 'pruned' away by God. But then I got to thinking about some of the things Jesus said; "Store up treasures in Heaven............", and the Parable of the Talents, ect., and I started realizing that God doesn't want us to be completely selfless, like a vegetable - that would be Bhuddism. We can still care about ourselves, but we ultimately must learn to put Him, and others, first. This ain't easy!, as any mature Christian knows. I think it takes a work on His part to complete.

Benny Hicks · 11-28-2001, 02:01 PM

Quote:

To be an egoist, is to be a person who is ultimately out for the good of your own self interest.

Ok, gotcha. Key word there is ultimately, there we go. Very interesting, never thought too much about it in that light.

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Many Christians follow Christ because they want to go to Heaven. That makes them an egoist.

Well, this may seem pointless but I figured I'd humor you all and post how my thought process went when I read this. At first I thought, "That's a horrible reason. That would make them no more faithful and just as naive as one who followed another religion because they wanted to go to Heaven." But realizing I'd built that thought on a presumption of their experiences I thought, "It depends on whether or not that person had any knowledge of other religions and Christianity; if that person merely accepted Christianity because it was the first to say it would solve their problems." Now, if this person knew of many religions but for whatever reason accepted Christianity as the truth, that would not make them a Christian.
Romans 10:9-10
If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

You must believe that Christ's crucifixion provided atonement for your sins to be a Christian. Now, you can believe that Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected, but until you acknowledge Jesus's sacrifice for you and confess that He is Lord you are not a Christian. Becoming a Christian isn't based on the acknowledgement of fact, it's based on the acceptance of faith that Christ's resurrection was enough.

Someone has to have a reason to have faith, humans don't lay down their pride for just any reason. There must some type of conviction, which is where the Holy Spirit comes in. If there is no conviction, it's all facts on paper that no Christian will stick to nor defend. So, one technically should be able to believe that Christ died and rose again and not be a Christian.

This raises the question: Why does it matter? Why should we believe in Jesus and His atonement for our sins? I believe that the answer can be seen two ways, and which you choose depends on if you're looking for what you get out of it or what God gets out of it.

If we searched for what we can get out of belief in Jesus and His atonement, we should believe because we want to go to Heaven. God loves us, He wants us to be with Him for eternity, and we definitely don't want to go to Hell. God loved us so much that He sent His son to die for us. This is looking at reasons for belief egotistically. Wow, we must be special, look how much God wants to be with us. We pretty much have God whipped. We screwed up, but He loved us so much that He made His son endure pain and death just for us.

While most of that is true to a certain extent, I think it is best to look at why God want us to believe. We know that we should do all things for God's glory, not our own. God is perfect, awesome, loving, caring, pure, everything good. By sending His Son, God allowed the earth to see how great He is. God loves Himself more than us, for if He didn't He would be committing idolatry. So, obviously He doesn't love us more than Himself. However, since God is loving, He wants a relationship with everyone. In order for Him to have a relationship with us, He had to send His Son for us. He wants us to realize how great He is. Out of our belief God gets another relationship, and another way to reveal Himself. God wants us to see how great He is, so we should believe. We don't deserve it, but God is merciful and willing to forgive. God is so great and has done so much for us, we should worship Him all of our days.

He made it even cooler though. Check it out, He made it so that if we believe, not only do we get to worship Him all of our days on earth, but once we die we get to spend the rest of eternity praising Him.

Well, there's my little rant for the day

I've gotta cut this short and go do some stuff, but I'll check back later if anyone has any questions about what I've said (I have a tendency to be a little hard to follow sometimes

)

In Him,
Ben

Bryan · 11-29-2001, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by XabolitionistX
To be an egoist, is to be a person who is ultimately out for the good of your own self interest.

Well then if this is the definition of egoist we are going with, the yes I am an egoist. I do whatever I can that will bring ME the MOST satisfaction.

Xkcer Man · 11-29-2001, 11:00 AM

The true desire to go to Heaven should be to live in the presence of God. I don't see anything selfish about wanting to be with someone you love.

Revolution · 11-30-2001, 11:54 PM

Just a couple of points.

My life is fulfilling now, because I know I'm doing what God wants me to do. It feels great knowing that although I can do nothing of myself, God is using me to do His work.

Of course we cannot take heaven out of the equation. As the last message said, there is nothing selfish about wanting to be with the one you love. Love is by it's very nature a reciprocal thing - we only love God because He first loved us. He started it, we are responding - that isn't selfishness.

When I said that thing about being a Christian only to get to heaven, I meant it like this... Christ died for our sins. Whilst we are on this earth, we must still suffer the consequences of sin. If the reason one wanted to be in heaven was just to escape from the consequences of sin, he would be misinformed. I don't want to be in heaven to escape sin. The main reason is to live with Christ, every moment of every "day" - in other words for eternity. The absence of sin is not my primary reason for wanting to go to heaven. One cannot seek to escape the consequences of sin without having a very personal relationship with the One who makes it possible. There are, I fear, a great number of people in church who don't have that relationship, and maybe don't even want it - but want, or even expect, to get to heaven. They are wrong.

As Paul reminds us, we must keep our eyes fixed above. But we must take care also that we are not "so heavenly minded that we're no earthly good" (I don't remember who said it, but I believe it's very true).

Maybe that makes things clearer, maybe not. I hope it helped.

Guitarman, sure you can burn me, just for kicks. When's a good time for you?