[Demon_Hunter]

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

John 1:1-14 "In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and He was God. He was in the beginning with God. He created everything there is. Nothing exists that he didnt make. Life itself was in him, and this life gives light to everyone. The light shines through the darkness, and the darkness can never extinguish it. God sent John the baptist to tell everyone about the light so that everyone might believe because of his testimony. John himself was not the light; he was only a witness to the light. The one who is the true light, who gives light to everyone, was going to come into the world. But although the world was made through him, the world didnt recognize him when he came. Even in his own land, and among his own people, he was not accepted. But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of GOd. They are reborn! This not a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan-this rebirth comes from God. So the Word became human and lived here on earth among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the only Son of the Father."



There were some verses in other parts of the NT refering to the Holy Spirit as being Gods Spirit, or the Spirit of God.

I was wondering if there were any thoughts on this about using these series of verses (and the ones regarding the Spirit if I can ever find them again) as proof for the Trinity?

[Mike Graham]

Originally Posted by demon_hunter

There were some verses in other parts of the NT refering to the Holy Spirit as being Gods Spirit, or the Spirit of God.... if I can ever find them again

NT verses using the phrase "spirit of God" include:
Matthew 3:16 Matthew 12:28 Romans 8:9 Romans 8:14 1 Cor 2:11 1 Cor 2:14 1 Cor 3:16 1 Cor 7:40 1 Cor 12:3 Ephesians 4:30 Philipp 3:3 1 John 4:2

Or did you mean OT?
Genesis 1:2 Exodus 31:3 Exodus 35:31 Numbers 24:2 1 Samuel 10:10 1 Samuel 11:6 1 Samuel 19:20 1 Samuel 19:23 2 Chron 15:1 2 Chron 24:20 Job 33:4 Ezekiel 11:24

I was wondering if there were any thoughts on this about using these series of verses (and the ones regarding the Spirit if I can ever find them again) as proof for the Trinity?

They certainly seem to be proof for the existance of the Holy Spirit.

[Demon_Hunter]

Originally Posted by Mike Graham

NT verses using the phrase "spirit of God" include:
Matthew 3:16 Matthew 12:28 Romans 8:9 Romans 8:14 1 Cor 2:11 1 Cor 2:14 1 Cor 3:16 1 Cor 7:40 1 Cor 12:3 Ephesians 4:30 Philipp 3:3 1 John 4:2

Or did you mean OT?
Genesis 1:2 Exodus 31:3 Exodus 35:31 Numbers 24:2 1 Samuel 10:10 1 Samuel 11:6 1 Samuel 19:20 1 Samuel 19:23 2 Chron 15:1 2 Chron 24:20 Job 33:4 Ezekiel 11:24

Thank you .

They certainly seem to be proof for the existance of the Holy Spirit.

The thing is, if God, and Jesus are one, and we know that God created everything (and therefore Jesus created everything), and since the Holy Spirit is actually Gods Spirit, and not necessarily a seperate entity then wouldnt that infact be the actual definition of the Trinity. 3 distinct beings who perform seperate task, and at the same time are all in 1 God?

[Daniel21TX]

Originally Posted by demon_hunter

The thing is, if God, and Jesus are one, and we know that God created everything (and therefore Jesus created everything), and since the Holy Spirit is actually Gods Spirit, and not necessarily a seperate entity then wouldnt that infact be the actual definition of the Trinity. 3 distinct beings who perform seperate task, and at the same time are all in 1 God?

Actually I don't think that is the "orthodox" trinity belief that was invented and evolved into what is considered by many to be "orthodox" today. 3 seperate beings would be tritheism, if I am not mistaken, and sadly, this seems to be the view that many trinitarians have. The trinity belief is that God is one being yet 3 persons, if I am not mistaken. I understand you might not have a tritheistic view of God, but you might want to consider changing the termonology you use.

My belief is that there is one God and one Christ. I believe that the one Christ is the one true God incarnate. So there we have God, and God incarnate. God and the genuine man, Christ Jesus.

I think people may have a easier time understanding how this is so, if they understood the reality of the incarnation, which is a great mystery (He was manifested in the flesh). I believe Jesus was a genuine human being, and that God revealed to Him, without doubt, that He was God incarnate, The Son of God. I don't believe that Jesus jumped out of the womb doing calculus, and healing people at 2 months old.

I do not believe that my spirit is a seperate person from me, and nor do I distinguish my thoughts and/or words (logos) as a seperate person from me.

Anyways, there is threads already on what I believe (Oneness), feel free to do a thread search.

[ICTHUS]

Originally Posted by Daniel21TX

Actually I don't think that is the "orthodox" trinity belief that was invented and evolved into what is considered by many to be "orthodox" today. 3 seperate beings would be tritheism, if I am not mistaken, and sadly, this seems to be the view that many trinitarians have. The trinity belief is that God is one being yet 3 persons, if I am not mistaken. I understand you might not have a tritheistic view of God, but you might want to consider changing the termonology you use.

The terminology is perfectly clear:

Originally Posted by The Athanasian Creed

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Daniel21TX

Actually I don't think that is the "orthodox" trinity belief that was invented and evolved into what is considered by many to be "orthodox" today. 3 seperate beings would be tritheism, if I am not mistaken, and sadly, this seems to be the view that many trinitarians have. The trinity belief is that God is one being yet 3 persons, if I am not mistaken. I understand you might not have a tritheistic view of God, but you might want to consider changing the termonology you use.

Thritheism is 3 gods. That should be pretty clear from the word itself.

We can state it all day long if you'd like - we believe in ONE God.

My belief is that there is one God and one Christ. I believe that the one Christ is the one true God incarnate. So there we have God, and God incarnate. God and the genuine man, Christ Jesus.

That's what we believe, but we believe in the Father who is not the Son, and the Holy Spirit who is not the Father, and the son who is not the Holy Spirit.

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by Cadence

That's what we believe, but we believe in the Father who is not the Son, and the Holy Spirit who is not the Father, and the son who is not the Holy Spirit.

And they're all equally and fully the same being, God, yes?

[Demon_Hunter]

Originally Posted by Qingu

And they're all equally and fully the same being, God, yes?

Thats the general concept.


Daniel, yes my terminology was a little wierd, I probably couldve been clearer.


But yeah, trinitarianism isnt saying that there is 3 Gods. It is 1 God with 3 individual personalities (tho the word personalities doesnt really explain it correctly). These 3 individual personalities do different things, but they operate towards 1 end goal, and they're plan is all the same.

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by demon_hunter

Thats the general concept.


Daniel, yes my terminology was a little wierd, I probably couldve been clearer.


But yeah, trinitarianism isnt saying that there is 3 Gods. It is 1 God with 3 individual personalities (tho the word personalities doesnt really explain it correctly). These 3 individual personalities do different things, but they operate towards 1 end goal, and they're plan is all the same.

How can they do different things, or be different in any way, if each of them is fully God? P A R A D O X!

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Qingu

How can they do different things, or be different in any way, if each of them is fully God? P A R A D O X!

Are you saying paradoxes aren't possible?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Qingu

How can they do different things, or be different in any way, if each of them is fully God? P A R A D O X!

Most every Christian I've heard from fully acknowledges that its a paradox. So...YES, we agree on something.

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Are you saying paradoxes aren't possible?

Not in any logically coherent sense, no.

Are you saying paradoxes are possible? If so, you've just eliminated every apologetic tool you have against other religions. (Or are they only possible in Christianity?)

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Qingu

Not in any logically coherent sense, no.

Are you saying paradoxes are possible? If so, you've just eliminated every apologetic tool you have against other religions. (Or are they only possible in Christianity?)

How are you defining paradox?

[Daniel21TX]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Thritheism is 3 gods. That should be pretty clear from the word itself.

We can state it all day long if you'd like - we believe in ONE God.

Cadence, I think I made it pretty clear in the post of mine that you quoted, that I don't believe all trinitarians believe in more then one God. Demon hunter had said something along the lines that God is 3 beings. I however thought that trinitarians believe God is one being, yet three person(alitie)s. Or in other words, of one substance, yet three hypostaseis. To say that God is three beings, seems like one would be saying that God is 3 substances, and that would not be the "orthodox" trinitarian view. As I said in my last post, sadly, many trinitarians have this kind of view of God. That is, that He is three substances and also three hypostaseis (3 beings and 3 persons).

Anyways, although I am sure about Oneness being true, and feel it is important for people to know the truth of the Oneness of God, I don't believe all trinitarians are condemned. If you have The Holy Spirit within you, then you are a brother of mine and I think a lot of this debating over what is on the other side of the dimmed glass, causes a lot more harm then good in many instances.

Lately I have been stumbling to sin, when there is no reason that I should be. I would appreciate any prayers from a brother in Christ (oneness or trinitarian, if you have The Holy Spirit, it would be appreciated).

[Demon_Hunter]

1 god, 3 persons.


That is the trinity. My first post had alot of wording errors that I shouldve checked before I posted the thread. Sorry if that caused any sort of issue.