What marriage looks like:

* · 03-28-2006, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

What is spiritual headship? How is Christ the head of the church?

How does that answer my question?

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No reason for it to be.

Then why is it?

KFBobInsanesMom · 03-28-2006, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

you didn't read the text. That would be a bad argument.

My argument is pul explicitly states a general command in Ephesians 5:21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Then he goes more specifically, but the specific in no way overrules the general command immediately preceeding.

22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Wives submitting does not negate the fact that husbands are a part of everybody and as such are commanded to submit in verse 21.

You completely misread my argument, and had apparently not read the passage in question enough to see 21's existence..

Why would the command to wives even be given then? Verse 21 would be sufficient to make the point if the point was that we are each to submit to the other. There had to be a reason for the next verses being given. Why give a direct command to wives if it is not needed or already understood in the general "submit one to another" verse? I believe this passage is reinforcing the fact that after the fall things changed. Genesis 3:16 To the woman He said: "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you." Part of the curse Eve brought upon herself was to be ruled by her husband. God tempered this curse by commanding husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church.

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 03-28-2006, 06:58 PM

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Originally Posted by *claw*

How does that answer my question?

The answer to that question is the answer to yours, and one I am working on figuring out. That to say, I haven't figured that part out, but I did read the previous verse as part of the context.

Quote:

Then why is it?

The reason for family to follow the church makes no sense in structure. Does the family have a multiplicity of elders and deacons? There just is not a reason to assume the home follows ecclisiastical structure.

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 03-28-2006, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KFBobInsanesMom

Why would the command to wives even be given then? Verse 21 would be sufficient to make the point if the point was that we are each to submit to the other. There had to be a reason for the next verses being given. Why give a direct command to wives if it is not needed or already understood in the general "submit one to another" verse? I believe this passage is reinforcing the fact that after the fall things changed. Genesis 3:16 To the woman He said: "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you." Part of the curse Eve brought upon herself was to be ruled by her husband. God tempered this curse by commanding husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church.

Then why is verse 21 there. It clearly is. And I don't think you will dispute that 1 John commands believers to love one another, even though a specific command to husbands is given.

lamella · 04-15-2006, 10:22 AM

I was married 1 and half year back. 1 thing that matters is ONENESS without any personal agenda.

KFBobInsanesMom · 04-15-2006, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Then why is verse 21 there. It clearly is. And I don't think you will dispute that 1 John commands believers to love one another, even though a specific command to husbands is given.

I was just browsing and came back across this thread and realized I never answered your question.. I believe that vs 21 is there (in great part) to remind both the men and the women that they are of equal worth to Christ and that they should do all they do in relationship with one another in accord with Christ's teachings. I think if the command to the women had been given without the words of vs 21 first, it would have come across as women being commanded to be virtually slaves. By first showing that we are, in all things, to think of the other, it makes the command to women a command of love for the husband and not a command to be a slave to him. At least that is how it comes across to me.

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 04-15-2006, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KFBobInsanesMom

I was just browsing and came back across this thread and realized I never answered your question.. I believe that vs 21 is there (in great part) to remind both the men and the women that they are of equal worth to Christ and that they should do all they do in relationship with one another in accord with Christ's teachings. I think if the command to the women had been given without the words of vs 21 first, it would have come across as women being commanded to be virtually slaves. By first showing that we are, in all things, to think of the other, it makes the command to women a command of love for the husband and not a command to be a slave to him. At least that is how it comes across to me.

If this is true, is it not a command for mutual submission? In the same Way 1 John neccesitates mutual love?

racer4Jesus · 09-10-2006, 10:27 PM

Hey Bill...
I don't mean to sound negative. But it seams to me like you would like to "skim" over the verses that imply that the "Wife" is to submit to her husband.

Without getting into this too deep I would offer this advise to everyone...

Nobody has ever gone wrong taking god at his word and doing what he says to do!

God is not a women hater...nor is he a feminist. he is perfect and knows whats best for us.

So read your bible and do what it says. don't try and change what it says to fit your view point.

JMHO

KFBobInsanesMom · 09-10-2006, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

If this is true, is it not a command for mutual submission? In the same Way 1 John neccesitates mutual love?

While that is true, every body can only have one head. Since the two come together as one flesh, there must be one head. God decided that the man is the head and the wife is to submit to his authority as such. I think the requirements on men are much harder than those on the women. As the weaker vessel, the woman is to be cherished, nurtured, cared for.....I personally don't see any way that this makes her of less importance or in any way not equal to the man, it's just a statement of how God created us.

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 09-11-2006, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by racer4Jesus

Hey Bill...
I don't mean to sound negative. But it seams to me like you would like to "skim" over the verses that imply that the "Wife" is to submit to her husband.

Without getting into this too deep I would offer this advise to everyone...

Nobody has ever gone wrong taking god at his word and doing what he says to do!

God is not a women hater...nor is he a feminist. he is perfect and knows whats best for us.

So read your bible and do what it says. don't try and change what it says to fit your view point.

JMHO

Actually though, you are skimming over the general command to submit to one another out of reverance for Christ. Wives should dubmit to their husbands, and husbands should submit to their wives out of reverance for Christ as well. That is in the immediate context. in most Bibles there is a section break, but that is not in the Greek. Its one Idea, submission, commanded generally, and then specifically, but the specific does not in any way contradict the general.

Thus, if marriages are not about submitting to each other out of reverance for Christ, then you are not taking God at his word or doing what the Bible says. You are doing the opposite of what it says.

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 09-11-2006, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KFBobInsanesMom

I was just browsing and came back across this thread and realized I never answered your question.. I believe that vs 21 is there (in great part) to remind both the men and the women that they are of equal worth to Christ and that they should do all they do in relationship with one another in accord with Christ's teachings. I think if the command to the women had been given without the words of vs 21 first, it would have come across as women being commanded to be virtually slaves. By first showing that we are, in all things, to think of the other, it makes the command to women a command of love for the husband and not a command to be a slave to him. At least that is how it comes across to me.

Yet he is supposed to submit as well. You can't really avoid that, otherwise you do get the virtual slavery which is taught in a lot of churches.