Go Back   Christian Guitar Forum > Musicians > Guitar
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Arcade Mark Forums Read

Reply
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 03-09-2006, 08:27 AM   #16
Godin/Seagull Man
 
presbystrat's Avatar
 

Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Amarillo, TX
Posts: 2,796
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtrdave
Better or worse?

And I'd be careful in regards to "general concensus". It was an atmosphere of "general concensus" that yelled "Crucify Him!", was it not?
Amen! Consensus is not always the best thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by niangelo
If everything was subjective opinion, this forum wouldn't exist.
Oh, Contrare. It is the subjectiveness which keeps things interesting around here. Also, if something is objective, then it is no longer opinion but fact.

presbystrat is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Unread 03-09-2006, 08:53 AM   #17
Heaven isn't too far away
 
gtrdave's Avatar
 

Joined: Dec 2004
Location: The First State
Posts: 6,730
Send a message via AIM to gtrdave
Quote:
Originally Posted by presbystrat

Oh, Contrare. It is the subjectiveness which keeps things interesting around here. Also, if something is objective, then it is no longer opinion but fact.
Yes. Like...I've played many a MIM Stratocaster and most of them have been decent and very playable guitars but I have not played a MIA Stratocaster that was worse than an MIM. On the contrary, the MIA's I've played and owned usually far surpass the quality/sound/playability of the MIM's.

That is fact for me but it's still a subjective opinion.
__________________
Lead, follow and get out of the way.

youtube
facebook
cd baby
gtrdave is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-09-2006, 08:57 AM   #18
Eaten by a grue
 
niangelo's Avatar
 

Joined: Nov 2001
Location: Edmonton Alberta
Posts: 2,114
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtrdave
Better or worse?

In what way? According to what criteria? Do you mean how a JB might be better than an SH-4? Or a Performer Detonator is worse than an Invader?
I'm unclear on what you're saying.

And I'd be careful in regards to "general concensus". It was an atmosphere of "general concensus" that yelled "Crucify Him!", was it not?
Prone to hyperbole, are we?

Seriously man. Think about it. Is anyone going to argue that an Epiphone acoustic is better that a Taylor 600 series? Not many. Why? Because there's a noticeable difference in quality.

That is, except to the unfamiliar or unskilled.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent
That's why Jesus would use a 5-10 watt tube combo. Then Jesus can get that nice breakup He likes at a manageable volume. A volume that is somewhat formal but still says I'm here to party. Much like tuxedo t-shirt Jesus.
"If all experienced God in the same way and returned Him an identical worship, the song of the Church triumphant would have no symphony, it would be like an orchestra in which all the instruments played the same note." - C.S. Lewis
niangelo is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-09-2006, 08:58 AM   #19
Eaten by a grue
 
niangelo's Avatar
 

Joined: Nov 2001
Location: Edmonton Alberta
Posts: 2,114
Quote:
Originally Posted by presbystrat
Amen! Consensus is not always the best thing.



Oh, Contrare. It is the subjectiveness which keeps things interesting around here. Also, if something is objective, then it is no longer opinion but fact.
That's why I said "if everything."

Crap is crap. Period. And it's OK to call it that.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent
That's why Jesus would use a 5-10 watt tube combo. Then Jesus can get that nice breakup He likes at a manageable volume. A volume that is somewhat formal but still says I'm here to party. Much like tuxedo t-shirt Jesus.
"If all experienced God in the same way and returned Him an identical worship, the song of the Church triumphant would have no symphony, it would be like an orchestra in which all the instruments played the same note." - C.S. Lewis
niangelo is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-09-2006, 09:44 AM   #20
Baby #2 is here!
 
RipVanWinkle's Avatar
 

Joined: Apr 2005
Location: Marshall, TX
Posts: 3,341
Send a message via AIM to RipVanWinkle
Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Who knows, you might one day hotrod it to the point that you have a handmade guitar that looks like a state.

It could happen.

Chesh
__________________

Gibson DC Std/Charvel TX Custom/MIK Fender Strat > Vol Pedal > Dano CC Drive > Dano CC Distortion > Dunlop Cry Baby > Dano CC Tremolo > Boss DD-5 > Korg 301dl/XTLive > Blackstar HT-20; Yamaha FGX730SCA

Check out my new Youth Ministry blog, www.studentswilleatyou.blogspot.com , leave a comment if you're from CGR!


RipVanWinkle is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-09-2006, 10:01 AM   #21
.
 
elijah77jc's Avatar
 

Joined: May 2002
Location: Abilene, Texas
Posts: 2,733
Send a message via AIM to elijah77jc Send a message via MSN to elijah77jc Send a message via Yahoo to elijah77jc
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtrdave
Yes. Like...I've played many a MIM Stratocaster and most of them have been decent and very playable guitars but I have not played a MIA Stratocaster that was worse than an MIM. On the contrary, the MIA's I've played and owned usually far surpass the quality/sound/playability of the MIM's.

well that's not the point that was made...

the point was that you can buy a stock MIA strat for a grand or more or you could buy a $200 used MIM strat and upgrade it and it would sound just as good or better.

if you compare a stock MIA strat and a stock MIM one, of course the MIA one will sound better.
__________________
Read my blog!
elijah77jc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-09-2006, 10:27 AM   #22
...
 
thesteve's Avatar
 

Joined: Apr 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 30,142
Send a message via AIM to thesteve
Quote:
Originally Posted by niangelo
Prone to hyperbole, are we?

Seriously man. Think about it. Is anyone going to argue that an Epiphone acoustic is better that a Taylor 600 series? Not many. Why? Because there's a noticeable difference in quality.

That is, except to the unfamiliar or unskilled.
sure...that's a fine example, BUT in the question you asked (Burstbucker vs. Seymour Duncan) you're talking about the high-end pickup from one company vs. another pickup company.
There's lots of players our there who love Burstbuckers for getting that "Gibson tone". I know the 490 and 498s are generally considered inferior to the JB/59 setup in a Les Paul. The most common pickup replacement I've heard of on a Epiphone Dot is the stock pickups for Gibson Classic 57s (since these are what you find in the ES-335)
As far as Burstbucker vs. Seymour goes, I don't think there really is a consensus, as both are seen as high quality pickups.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elijah77jc
the point was that you can buy a stock MIA strat for a grand or more or you could buy a $200 used MIM strat and upgrade it and it would sound just as good or better.
you might be able to upgrade an MIM strat to MIA specs as far as the electronics go, but you're still stuck with MIM specs for the construction. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but if you can drop $200 for a used MIM, why not save a little more and drop $600 for a used MIA?
__________________
We've all got ideas. We are the music makers. We make money to buy things, and write down words.

I'm a podcaster
thesteve is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-09-2006, 10:39 AM   #23
.
 
elijah77jc's Avatar
 

Joined: May 2002
Location: Abilene, Texas
Posts: 2,733
Send a message via AIM to elijah77jc Send a message via MSN to elijah77jc Send a message via Yahoo to elijah77jc
Quote:
Originally Posted by thesteve
you might be able to upgrade an MIM strat to MIA specs as far as the electronics go, but you're still stuck with MIM specs for the construction. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but if you can drop $200 for a used MIM, why not save a little more and drop $600 for a used MIA?
well i just got excited about saving all that money. what exactly is the difference in construction between the MIA and MIM strats? AND is it worth that much of a difference in price?
__________________
Read my blog!
elijah77jc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-09-2006, 10:50 AM   #24
Heaven isn't too far away
 
gtrdave's Avatar
 

Joined: Dec 2004
Location: The First State
Posts: 6,730
Send a message via AIM to gtrdave
Quote:
Originally Posted by elijah77jc
well that's not the point that was made...

the point was that you can buy a stock MIA strat for a grand or more or you could buy a $200 used MIM strat and upgrade it and it would sound just as good or better.
It's these kind of broad-brushed and highly-assumptive statements that I find so interesting.

How do you KNOW that an upgraded MIM will sound "just as good or better" than a stock MIA? Has there been laboratory research done to show this?
Have 4 out of 5 players agreed? Was Consumer Reports involved?
You and I might have differing opinions on the topic (obviously)...whom is "right"?
Need either of us be "right"? They're just opinions, after all...

So why is there always a contest to seemingly dethrone the MIA guitar? And why do some put up such unwillingness to buy the MIA guitar? Oh, because 60% of the price is the "name", I forgot...and because it's the same guitar but this one's made by greedy unionized Americans and the other is made by the struggling underpaid people of Mexico...

It's crazy, I tell ya...

It's easy enough to tell the truth in a statement like "Buy a MIM Fender, toss in some Duncans, get a proper set-up and you'll have a good guitar.".
Period.
No, we've got to toss in our "opinion" (it's only natural...this IS a forum afterall...) by saying "It'll be better than an MIA Stratocaster".

It's that statement the gets countered by someone like, oh let's say, me who says "I've played and owned a lot of Strats over 27 years; MIK, MIJ, MIA, MIM and MII and various Strat-copies (like my ESP 400 Series) and the MIA was the best overall while the others, even the MIK Squier, were still good but not to the level of the MIA."
That is a true statement formed as an opinion. I have not played every modded MIM and every stock MIA to know for sure but for the ones that I have played, the odds are not in the MIM's favor ALTHOUGH it's still a fine guitar and it may be all the guitar that a particular person would need.

Opinion vs. opinion, not fact vs. fact.
__________________
Lead, follow and get out of the way.

youtube
facebook
cd baby
gtrdave is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-09-2006, 11:39 AM   #25
...
 
thesteve's Avatar
 

Joined: Apr 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 30,142
Send a message via AIM to thesteve
Quote:
Originally Posted by elijah77jc
well i just got excited about saving all that money. what exactly is the difference in construction between the MIA and MIM strats? AND is it worth that much of a difference in price?
well first there's parts
let's look at upgrade prices
$200 MIM Strat getting it to theoretical MIA specs:
1) We'll go with Seymour Duncan singles (vintage staggereds or Alnico 2s) $40 a piece, or $120 (those are used prices)
2) MIM is 21 fret neck, but we need a 22 fret neck to meet MIA spec...so that's at least $100 probably more like $150 at the least
3) redo the wiring (the MIA's have a no-load tone control now, which means you need at least a new pot) - $10
4) Replace those MIM tuners with some Schallers - $50
5) Throw on straplocks - $15

so right now you're looking at $200 + $120 + $150 +$10 +$50 = $530 inc. upgrades, and you haven't even replaced the trem yet!

Plus, like dave has pointed out, you're only guaranteed to get a guitar that sounds good, not a guitar that will be better than a MIA Strat. I don't know if the features of my MIJ Strat are close to those of the modern MIAs, but I know that one of the "weird" things about my MIJ is that the body is contoured differently than MIM Strats. It's a bit more curved making it lighter and IMO more comfortable to play than an MIM.

One things I often noted about Hopeful's post about why his 50th Anniversary is such a good guitar isn't what he stresses about the sound. I have no doubt that an MIM with the "right" pickups will sound "better" than a stock MIA...but will it have the feeling of an MIA, the smooth neck and fretwork...the rolled-edges of the modern MIA? there's alot more to playing than just the way something sounds...otherwise we wouldn't be hung up on body styles at all.
__________________
We've all got ideas. We are the music makers. We make money to buy things, and write down words.

I'm a podcaster
thesteve is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-09-2006, 11:40 AM   #26
Pearl plays her guitar
 
Hopeful's Avatar
 

Joined: May 2004
Location: Maple Valley, WA
Posts: 4,404
Quote:
Originally Posted by elijah77jc
well i just got excited about saving all that money. what exactly is the difference in construction between the MIA and MIM strats? AND is it worth that much of a difference in price?
In my opinion, the Ameican series neck with the rolled fingerboard alone is worth the price difference. I'm one of those who places a lot of attention and importance on the quality of the neck. Plus, you get higher quality tuners, better fret finishing, Schaller straplocks on the American Deluxe, better stock pickups (and a bigger variety of pickups depending on the model), a better bridge and tremolo system, a HARDSHELL CASE (add $60-$80 at least, except for the Highway 1 which has a gig bag). The value to many would be that they won't have to do the mods, especially if they're not experienced with this type of work. Add to this, no down time while you're looking for the replacements and having them made.

Now, if you can't afford the MIA, new or used, try to find a used MIJ or CIJ, or go with the MIM. In many of the arguments between the MIM and the MIA, the MIA is knocked down by some only because they just can't afford them; therefore, they end up justifying their MIM purchase by saying they didn't think the MIA was much better. That's okay for them, but not really a true indicator of the difference in quality. Based on my experience, I'd buy another MIA, maybe a hardtail or artist model, in an instant.
__________________
I've been humbled many times, but always for my own good!

Check this guy out:
http://www.dougdoppler.com/
Hopeful is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-09-2006, 12:29 PM   #27
Godin/Seagull Man
 
presbystrat's Avatar
 

Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Amarillo, TX
Posts: 2,796
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopeful
In many of the arguments between the MIM and the MIA, the MIA is knocked down by some only because they just can't afford them; therefore, they end up justifying their MIM purchase by saying they didn't think the MIA was much better.
And then there are those of us who can only afford a Squier. Us po folk still have our Egos to think about so we have to make it look like we wouldn't be happy with anything else I can probably get my Squier to sound better than a stock MIA but it will never play like one and it will never be near the quality of instrument. One only needs to go to a music store and compare the different levels of strats. The best way to do this is to play them unplugged; you can always change out the pickups if you don't like the sound. I'm pretty sure that if I were blind folded I could tell the difference between a Squier, MIM and MIA by the feel of the neck alone. If I could afford the MIA I would buy it in a second. If anyone would care to trade their MIA or even MIM for my Squier let me know.
presbystrat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-09-2006, 12:44 PM   #28
übergeek
 
trpullen's Avatar
 

Joined: Oct 2001
Location: Alton, IL - USA
Posts: 1,019
For me the price difference is more than justified. I HATE the bridge saddles on Vintage style Strats and that is all that is offered on MIMs. I do a tone of palm muting and the screws eat the flesh off my hand. Bad news. SO....I only play modern USA Strats that have the smooth bridge saddles. I could care less about 6 screws vs 2 posts on the bridge assembly itself...but I like the feel under my hand.

Likewise, I have a real fondness for the feel of the American Deluxe neck. Wow those are good. I like the roller nut and the lack of string trees.

Best bargain in my mind is a used American. The Mexi is a perfectly good playable guitar but the American is in a whole different league.
__________________
Thomas R. Pullen

Acoustics: 2003 Taylor 855ce-LTD L1 (Brazilian), 1993 Taylor 810, 2005 Taylor K4 preamp, 2006 ESP XTone PA1 (Sunburst)
Electrics: 2007 ESP Vintage Plus Distressed, 1998 Fender AmDx Fat Stratocaster (Black with EMG SAV + SPC kit), 1997 PRS CE24 (Ruby), 2006 ESP LTD EC-1000s (Sunburst)

Amps: Orange Rockerverb 50 Head and PPC212 cab


“Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.” - St. Francis of Assisi
trpullen is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-09-2006, 12:50 PM   #29
Pearl plays her guitar
 
Hopeful's Avatar
 

Joined: May 2004
Location: Maple Valley, WA
Posts: 4,404
Quote:
Originally Posted by presbystrat
And then there are those of us who can only afford a Squier. Us po folk still have our Egos to think about so we have to make it look like we wouldn't be happy with anything else I can probably get my Squier to sound better than a stock MIA but it will never play like one and it will never be near the quality of instrument. One only needs to go to a music store and compare the different levels of strats. The best way to do this is to play them unplugged; you can always change out the pickups if you don't like the sound. I'm pretty sure that if I were blind folded I could tell the difference between a Squier, MIM and MIA by the feel of the neck alone. If I could afford the MIA I would buy it in a second. If anyone would care to trade their MIA or even MIM for my Squier let me know.
I can send yu a woodburning kit I have and you can burn that Squier right off the headstock! That would be a cheap mod!



P.S. Tom - nice stuff!
__________________
I've been humbled many times, but always for my own good!

Check this guy out:
http://www.dougdoppler.com/
Hopeful is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-09-2006, 01:08 PM   #30
Godin/Seagull Man
 
presbystrat's Avatar
 

Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Amarillo, TX
Posts: 2,796
Quote:
Originally Posted by trpullen
I HATE the bridge saddles on Vintage style Strats and that is all that is offered on MIMs. I do a tone of palm muting and the screws eat the flesh off my hand. Bad news. SO....I only play modern USA Strats that have the smooth bridge saddles.
The Squier standard has smooth bridge saddles like the MIA Hey maybe my Squier is as good or better than an MIA My Ego is feeling better and better

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopeful
I can send yu a woodburning kit I have and you can burn that Squier right off the headstock! That would be a cheap mod!
Now we're talkin! Who cares what it plays like; what matters is what people think I'm playing
presbystrat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:07 PM.


Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2