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Unread 03-05-2006, 03:38 PM   #1
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Modes and Scales and Apreggios... getting crazy over here!

well I got this book "Shred is not dead".
I try to understand the theory of scales, arpeggios and modes they try to explain and say I should know. I just dont understand the stuff they tell me everywhere... like first its like just some diagrams and then suddenly they tell me stuff like 3rd 4th 5th minor major blablalbla... I just cant get it... can you help me? Im going crazy here.

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Unread 03-05-2006, 04:02 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TG-da-JF
well I got this book "Shred is not dead".
I try to understand the theory of scales, arpeggios and modes they try to explain and say I should know. I just dont understand the stuff they tell me everywhere... like first its like just some diagrams and then suddenly they tell me stuff like 3rd 4th 5th minor major blablalbla... I just cant get it... can you help me? Im going crazy here.


When a book refers to something as the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and finally 8th it is refering to the notes in a key.


Lets say that you are in the Key of C.

Well then, you would number the notes as following:

1-C, 2-D, 3-E, 4-F, 5-G, 6-A, 7-B, 8-C (one octave higher than the previous 1st).


Thats bassically what the book is talking about when it refers to numbers.

Do you already know the intervals for the Major, and Minor scales?
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Unread 03-05-2006, 07:52 PM   #3
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Generally, we can help you better if we get specific questions, rather than general "plase help me" questions. What types of diagrams are in the book?
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Unread 03-08-2006, 03:22 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainer.
Generally, we can help you better if we get specific questions, rather than general "plase help me" questions. What types of diagrams are in the book?
Well it's the stuff about those Ionian, Dorian, Dominant, Whatever, Freakish(Frygish), etcetera modes. I don't understand what to do with them and why I should know them or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by demon_hunter
Do you already know the intervals for the Major, and Minor scales?
Well what are intervals and what do I use those for?
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Unread 03-08-2006, 03:28 PM   #5
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You should know scales and arpeggios because shred is based on scales and arpeggios. Modes are just scales starting on a different note.
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Unread 03-08-2006, 03:30 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TG-da-JF
Well it's the stuff about those Ionian, Dorian, Dominant, Whatever, Freakish(Frygish), etcetera modes. I don't understand what to do with them and why I should know them or so.



Well what are intervals and what do I use those for?
An interval is the distance between 2 notes.
Scales are made up of patterns or organized intervals.

Modes are scales. Period.
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Unread 03-09-2006, 04:03 PM   #7
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What do you need to know about the modes?

Very little.

Anything beyond the names is a waste of time.


Within every key signature are 7 naturally occurring modes. Note the terminology. WITHIN THE KEY.

The definition what "mode" somebody is playing in is not concrete. The KEY SIGNATURE generally IS. When people name a mode a player/composer is using, they are making an APPROXIMATION of what they BELIEVE the player/composer to to be using.

Confused?

Let me give you an example:

The KEY of C Major contains 7 distinct notes - C,D,E,F,G,A,B, that occur in a given set of intervals. The intervals are:
(W-W-H-W-W-W-H) In this definition, W stands for 'Whole Step' and H stands for 'Half Step', a whole step is two frets, a half step is one.

From C to D is a whole step in C Major. From E to F is a half step.

Now, should I decide in my chord progression or solo to concentrate on a chord or note that IS NOT C, the "Mode Nazis" will tell you that you're playing in a "mode" (and just to confuse this further, C Major played with their "concentration" on C is the C Ionian mode in the parlance of the "Mode Nazis"... great... good thinking there... just what we need - yet another set of nomenclature to cunfuse things for something everyone pretty much understands in the first place...).

Play around D in the key of C Major in you piece, or use the D minor chord alot, and the Mode Nazis will tell you that you're in D Dorian.

Play around E in the key of C Major in your piece, or use the E minor chord alot, and the Mode Nazis will tell you you're in E Phrygian.


The Mode Nazis have big problems in two areas -

1) "How much do I have to hang around what to qualify for your mode du jour?" What if I spend half my time concentrating on the D and the other half concentrating on the E? Which mode is it? Better yet, who cares? It's still C Major.

2) ALL tonalities described as "modal" already exist in a parent key signature - be that a naturally occurring one (like C Major) or one that is altered (such a A Harmonic Minor). Once you understand that, modes are worthless - if someone chooses to attach the label of "X" Mode to what I am playing at a given time, fine - I'll be happy to correct them with the fact that I'm playing in a given KEY, and really couldn't care less what mode they think I'm in.

Pound this into your head:
The KEY SIGNATURE is a concrete statement as to what notes at what intervals I am using as my canvas for my composition or playing. Claiming I am playing in a given mode is merely somebody's OPINION as to what I am using for my canvas. NO hard and fast rule exists to delineate the number of times I hit a certain note or resolve in a certain way to satisfy a certain criteria that guarantees that I'm playing a certain MODE - but the KEY I am playing in IS hard and fast and concrete.

Here are the modes of C Major:

C Ionian (1)
D Dorian (2)
E Phrygian (3)
F Lydian (4)
G Mixolydian (5)
A Aeolian (6)
B Locrian (7)

You know the modes now. Congratulations.

Now here is the information you really need to know:

You'll need the following scales known like the back of your hand:
The Major Scale in all positions on all strings - these are the KEYS spoken of before - C Major, G Major, etc...

The Natural or Relative Minor Scale in all positions on all strings (this is, BTW the Aeolian Mode also). These are also called KEYS from time to time - A Minor, E Minor...

The Harmonic Minor Scale in all positions on all strings. These are also called KEYS from time to time - A Harmonic Minor, E Harmonic Minor...

The Melodic Minor Scale in all positions on all strings. These are also called KEYS from time to time - A Melodic Minor, E Melodic Minor...

The Pentatonic Major Scale in all positions on all strings. This is just a subset of a Major key - it drops the 4 and the 7 from the major key/scale (F and B in C Major).

The Pentatonic Minor Scale in all positions on all strings. This is just a subset of the Minor key, and remember that a minor key is simply a major key starting on the 6th. The Key/Scale "A Minor Pentatonic" drops the F and B, just like C Major Pentatonic does, so the relationship between the Major Key and it's Relative Minor holds.

The Blues Scale in all positions on all strings. This is a Pentatonic Minor with a b5 note added. In A Minor Blues, you start with the A Minor Pentatonic and add an Eb/D#.

Last edited by PacerX; 03-09-2006 at 04:15 PM.
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Unread 03-11-2006, 11:32 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TG-da-JF
Well it's the stuff about those Ionian, Dorian, Dominant, Whatever, Freakish(Frygish), etcetera modes. I don't understand what to do with them and why I should know them or so.



Well what are intervals and what do I use those for?
To be completely honest, I think your to young in your playing to be concerned with modes. You need to worry about other things first. No problem in asking.

Also something that really helped me out more than anything was finding a teacher who could show you application of modes and scales. Once you see and hear how they work it will click better for you. One of the big misconceptions in modes is that it is this huge soloing tool, and yes they are. But it takes two to tango. Meaning, that yes, knowledge of the scales is great, but also what creates the MODE are the chords in which you are playing the scales over.

In short mode are used to create scales. AND modes are used to create chord patterns. It's the chords that give the scales you are playing their "Modal Tonality". Modes are why songs sound Happy, Dark, Latin, Minor etc...

Clear as mudd. Good.

Here is a great website that has alot of articles.
http://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/147
http://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/153
http://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/105
http://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/106
http://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/108
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Unread 03-13-2006, 04:49 PM   #9
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Alright. By just playing with the fingerings I had in my book I got it I guess. Like they all sound different and it's true indeed one scale/mode has another feeling than the other. I actually just needed some patience to let it work in and not get frustrated after reading it the 5th time.
But isnt it so that you can just take a fingering for a mode and just switch it in another place like I mean you have a mode with the root A and then you just use the same fingering for the root C? Or is that what you were just explaining? Anyways I get the thing with the numbers and the keys now but I think it sounds like a lot of work to figure out all the notes and stuff to change scales. But I'll figure it out.
I understand chords and so and how to switch faster by staying barre instead of playing chords with open strings and I just play them like I feel how I should play them. With that I mean playing worship songs. I should work on my rhythm but I just feel fine like the way it is. I just wanna play lead and shred in the band Im starting. 8 months of playing guitar can sound alot or not so much but I just think Ive got all the time of the world(even if it seems like thats not so long anymore either). anyways this wasnt specially to get off-topic but more like to explain that I don't feel too young to be concerned bout modes and stuff. well first thing I want now is actually being able to improvise sounding good, and then playing and improvising faster. Then I want to be able to figure out the rest but my first desire still is improvising.

Take care, Thomas
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Unread 03-13-2006, 05:05 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TG-da-JF
But isnt it so that you can just take a fingering for a mode and just switch it in another place like I mean you have a mode with the root A and then you just use the same fingering for the root C?
You shouldn't feel "too young" to be concerned with modes and stuff.
If you're eager to learn it then by all means go for it. You'll be a better player for doing so.

To answer your question above, if I understand you correctly, yes. Although I would not say "the same fingering", I would say the same interval pattern.
A diatonic major scale is a diatonic major scale, doesn't matter if it's in A or B or C# or whatever. Same with any mode/scale; the interval structure that makes up the mode/scale does not change from key to key.

Just like how learning just 1 E-form barre chord, say F major, opens up 11 other barre chords, from F#/Gb on up.
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Unread 03-14-2006, 01:57 PM   #11
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alrighty like for example Id improvise over a backing track with some chords and they go like A then E or whatever and I want to give it a mixolydian sound I just take the mixolydian fingering and switch the key at the same time as the chords... sounds easy enough... except for that I could use different fingerings or use the whole fretboard. So did I get it right? I guess that would be enough for some time. ill hit the minor and 7th and other stuff later. I think Ill keep this topic as some sort of blog too by adding what ive learnt and my questions if you dont mind.

Are the fretboard logic series worthwhile?
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Last edited by TG-da-JF; 03-14-2006 at 02:08 PM.
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Unread 03-22-2006, 03:23 PM   #12
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So how do I make a whole scale/mode minor, major, augmented, dimished or whatever?
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Unread 03-22-2006, 04:31 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TG-da-JF
Are the fretboard logic series worthwhile?
Yes.

Quote:
So how do I make a whole scale/mode minor, major, augmented, dimished or whatever?
FBL tells you.
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Unread 03-22-2006, 08:30 PM   #14
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you want FBL.

I found this site handy [I]before[I] I got FBL

http://www.guitarnuts.com/theory/scalemaker/index.php
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Unread 03-22-2006, 10:43 PM   #15
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the best way i got in touch with modes and what they sound like was by just messing around with the piano making melodies and harmonies and such.

then i decided all the hype on playing modes on guitar is...well, hype
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