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Unread 03-09-2006, 10:48 PM   #46
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The commandments are meant as a guide to godly life. We are saved by faith, not the commandments. That said, a faith that does not manifest itself in a godly life is incomplete ("faith without works is dead"). Furthermore, it is clear that in striving to live a godly life we make ourselves more receptive to God.

In short, no, we are not saved by following the commandments, but if we are not keeping the spirit of the commandments, then we are clearly not yet saved.

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Unread 03-10-2006, 04:58 AM   #47
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The commandments are meant as a guide to godly life. We are saved by faith, not the commandments. That said, a faith that does not manifest itself in a godly life is incomplete ("faith without works is dead"). Furthermore, it is clear that in striving to live a godly life we make ourselves more receptive to God.

In short, no, we are not saved by following the commandments, but if we are not keeping the spirit of the commandments, then we are clearly not yet saved.
-That's what I've been trying to say.

Edit: Just so you know I won't be on for a while I'm going to Acquire the Fire today and tommorow. [front row seats! ] talk to you when I get back.
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Unread 03-10-2006, 07:13 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq
That sounds all welland good, butis it biblical? The answer is no. We do notfollowthe old testament law. It was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, but after faith came, we are no longer under that scoolmaster. Acts 15 specifically lays down according to the Holy Spirit how much of the law carried over.Its 4 commands, and most people would be shocked to hear that 3 are dietary.


The heart of the sabbath was rest, not corporate worship. Our sabbath rest is described in Hebrews 4.

And yes I can think of several laws I am quite happy to break. I like to have acleanshaven face, so the whole no cutting the corners of my beard is one I happily break every morning.

It is biblical. Maybe not making sure you get to church and worship on Saturday. But gathering together to worship God and fellowship with each other is! Plus you forget that Jesus says to "find rest" in Him. As the new testament says, "come to me all who are tired and weary, and I will give you rest." Why do we gather with other christians?.. To worship, minister to each other, love each other, serve and encourage each other. It may not be a law we will be "punished" for, but the life of the church PROVES, the heart of the ten commandments is still followed. Jesus said the ten commandments are summed up in, Love God and love your neighbour. You see He is not saying we can now ignore it. He explains the heart of it. If you love God and your neighbour, you will not break the ten commandments. Because they concern God and people. You know, murder, stealing, envy, honouring mum and dad, etc. Makes sense to me.

And the ten commandments do not say anything about beards! Beards and ritual cleansing, etc were God's rules for the Isrealites regarding how they conducted themselves in the work of His temple and sacrifices. Which as I said, was a picture of the holiness in the temple God is building in us, the temple that we should not defile. As I said, the new testament says to take the new and some of the old.

It doesn't take too much wisdom to realise God is not asing us to "not trim our beards", or to obey everything before we are saved, or circumsize ourselves, or follow ritual cleansing practises. But as Jesus said, the ten commandments reveal sin. And if Jesus says not to sin, then we don't break the commandments! Someone wrote it perfectly here, by recieving God's free gift and growing in Jesus, we find the law is "written on our hearts", without "trying" to obey we want to obey, because of what Jesus has done in our lives.

Maybe you need to read back through the old and new testament. I said this before but many here love to pick and choose what they read, and then manipulate the rest and argue. Why?

Remember, THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE NOT ABOUT BEARDS OR EXTERNAL MATTERS, READ THEM! (And take the new and some of the old!)

AND WE ARE NOT SAVED BY THEM, BUT IN LOVING JESUS AND IN HIS LOVE, WE WANT TO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS. Jesus said not one word of it will pass. How can we ignore something that will outlive heaven and earth?
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Unread 03-10-2006, 07:28 AM   #49
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Try reading all of Acts 15.

Verse 21 ... "for the law of Moses has been read for a very long time in the synagogues every Sabbath, and his words are preached in every town."

I wish I read this again earlier. Paul talked about food that is ritually unclean, to keep themselves from sexual immorality and not to eat any animal that has been strangled or any blood, because this was their culture. AFTER THAT (verse 21) he points out that every town has already heard the law of Moses, there was no need to reel it off, again, as the gentiles there already new it. The other 4 were add ons to keep them safe in the midst of their culture and also due to the external practises God put in place (not the ten c's) of the Jewish people that some were pushing to make them do. The new testament says that the old external things were a picture of the new internal things. Circumcision of the heart!

Like I said, there are obvious areas of the old we no longer do, it is really pointless to argue about those things. I've noticed on one hand people like myself are talking about biblical areas that show us the law (of moses) is still valid today, not to save us, but it is written on our hearts. BUT the people arguing against all this are using external things like beards, etc, but are not mentioning the actual ten commandments that came as God's law!
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Unread 03-10-2006, 08:20 AM   #50
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The point about the Sabbath is valid. We Christians do not keep the Sabbath. The Ten Commandments do not say "pick a day and congregate on that day with a community of believers;" they say, "honor the Sabbath." In the Old Testament this meant something very specific. If one is to read the Bible literally, then all mainstream Christians are breaking this commandment.
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Unread 03-10-2006, 08:42 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by PatchworkMan
The point about the Sabbath is valid. We Christians do not keep the Sabbath. The Ten Commandments do not say "pick a day and congregate on that day with a community of believers;" they say, "honor the Sabbath." In the Old Testament this meant something very specific. If one is to read the Bible literally, then all mainstream Christians are breaking this commandment.
Not quite. The Sabbath (as with the rest of the Law) was pointing to Christ. We enter our Sabbath rest when we are trusting in Christ (Heb. 4). So for the Christian, every day is the Sabbath because we are always resting in Christ.
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Unread 03-10-2006, 10:22 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by mat777
Try reading all of Acts 15.

Verse 21 ... "for the law of Moses has been read for a very long time in the synagogues every Sabbath, and his words are preached in every town."

I wish I read this again earlier. Paul talked about food that is ritually unclean, to keep themselves from sexual immorality and not to eat any animal that has been strangled or any blood, because this was their culture. AFTER THAT (verse 21) he points out that every town has already heard the law of Moses, there was no need to reel it off, again, as the gentiles there already new it. The other 4 were add ons to keep them safe in the midst of their culture and also due to the external practises God put in place (not the ten c's) of the Jewish people that some were pushing to make them do. The new testament says that the old external things were a picture of the new internal things. Circumcision of the heart!

Like I said, there are obvious areas of the old we no longer do, it is really pointless to argue about those things. I've noticed on one hand people like myself are talking about biblical areas that show us the law (of moses) is still valid today, not to save us, but it is written on our hearts. BUT the people arguing against all this are using external things like beards, etc, but are not mentioning the actual ten commandments that came as God's law!

but the gentiles are only to keep those 4 commands, and not to be burdened with the law. The point was not that Moses' law was for gentiles, as you seem to think, but that Moses' law was read and it could not save. Read it in context, instead of committing eisegesis on half a verse to fit your own assumptions. Read versus 6-20 to see that your assumption here is by removing the context.
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Unread 03-10-2006, 10:24 AM   #53
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The commandments are meant as a guide to godly life. We are saved by faith, not the commandments. That said, a faith that does not manifest itself in a godly life is incomplete ("faith without works is dead"). Furthermore, it is clear that in striving to live a godly life we make ourselves more receptive to God.

In short, no, we are not saved by following the commandments, but if we are not keeping the spirit of the commandments, then we are clearly not yet saved.
No, read Galatians and Romans to see that the OT was given so that we would fail and be without excuse. We do not keep the Mosaic law, nor is it a guide for believers.
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Unread 03-10-2006, 10:29 AM   #54
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It is biblical. Maybe not making sure you get to church and worship on Saturday. But gathering together to worship God and fellowship with each other is! Plus you forget that Jesus says to "find rest" in Him. As the new testament says, "come to me all who are tired and weary, and I will give you rest." Why do we gather with other christians?.. To worship, minister to each other, love each other, serve and encourage each other. It may not be a law we will be "punished" for, but the life of the church PROVES, the heart of the ten commandments is still followed. Jesus said the ten commandments are summed up in, Love God and love your neighbour. You see He is not saying we can now ignore it. He explains the heart of it. If you love God and your neighbour, you will not break the ten commandments. Because they concern God and people. You know, murder, stealing, envy, honouring mum and dad, etc. Makes sense to me.

And the ten commandments do not say anything about beards! Beards and ritual cleansing, etc were God's rules for the Isrealites regarding how they conducted themselves in the work of His temple and sacrifices. Which as I said, was a picture of the holiness in the temple God is building in us, the temple that we should not defile. As I said, the new testament says to take the new and some of the old.

It doesn't take too much wisdom to realise God is not asing us to "not trim our beards", or to obey everything before we are saved, or circumsize ourselves, or follow ritual cleansing practises. But as Jesus said, the ten commandments reveal sin. And if Jesus says not to sin, then we don't break the commandments! Someone wrote it perfectly here, by recieving God's free gift and growing in Jesus, we find the law is "written on our hearts", without "trying" to obey we want to obey, because of what Jesus has done in our lives.

Maybe you need to read back through the old and new testament. I said this before but many here love to pick and choose what they read, and then manipulate the rest and argue. Why?

Remember, THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE NOT ABOUT BEARDS OR EXTERNAL MATTERS, READ THEM! (And take the new and some of the old!)

AND WE ARE NOT SAVED BY THEM, BUT IN LOVING JESUS AND IN HIS LOVE, WE WANT TO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS. Jesus said not one word of it will pass. How can we ignore something that will outlive heaven and earth?

The ten commandments are a piece of the law. James 2:10 makes the law a unified whole which you can't pick and choose from.

Leviticus 19, (a part of the law of God of equal importance to the 10 commandments, and part of the same law) says not to trim the corners of your beard.

Leviticus 19:27You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard.

Clearly, you do not know the law of moses at all if you do not realize that beards, tassles on the robe, who could do what, etc. Are critically important in the law. Thgere are massive segments on what you can eat.

And the penalty for lots of this little stuff was death.

The Sabbath was not a time to gather and hear scripture in the time of the OT. That is a practice stemming from the Babylonian captivity.
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Unread 03-11-2006, 08:25 AM   #55
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The ten commandments are a piece of the law. James 2:10 makes the law a unified whole which you can't pick and choose from.

Leviticus 19, (a part of the law of God of equal importance to the 10 commandments, and part of the same law) says not to trim the corners of your beard.

Leviticus 19:27You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard.

Clearly, you do not know the law of moses at all if you do not realize that beards, tassles on the robe, who could do what, etc. Are critically important in the law. Thgere are massive segments on what you can eat.

And the penalty for lots of this little stuff was death.

The Sabbath was not a time to gather and hear scripture in the time of the OT. That is a practice stemming from the Babylonian captivity.

Ok. If you are only to stick to the 4 commands, does that mean it is ok for you to murder, steal, envy and lie? There is a clear distinction between the ten commandments and the laws you are mentioning. The ten commandments were about sin. The others were regulations for the Jewish people to live by as a nation. The reason any of them were punished for breaking a regulation stems back to the ten commandments.

I suggest when you quote a scripture that you read all of it yourself. James 2:10 and 11. What does it mention? Adultery and murder. These are part of the ten C's. Just as every time Jesus mentioned the commandments, He only mentioned the ten commandments. Matthew 19:16 to 26. He clearly only speaks of the ten C's. Just another pointer towards the obvious. That while the laws you mentioned are connected, the ten on their own are separate, in that these are the ones to reveal sin. This is also scripture. The ten are about loving God and your neibgour, about issues of the heart, just as Jesus said. Beards and blue tassles clearly are not issues of the heart but external. I have read the whole bible and I know the laws you are talking about. But taken in context with descernment in the Holy Spirit, it does not take a whole lot to realise to difference.

I suggest you read Leviticus with Matthew 13:52 in mind. Take the new and old out of the storeroom. If descernment alone can't show you what matters and what doesn't matter, meaning what affects your relationship with God and people, then maybe it is safer for you to keep away from it altogether.

As Jesus said (something that seems to be ignored quite easily), He came NOT to do away with it, but to fulfill it. As I said before I KNOW WE ARE NOT SAVED BY THE LAW! But as Jesus says, "if you love me, you will obey me."

No longer do we serve in the old way, but in the new way of the spirit. God said, "I will write my laws on their hearts".

By the saving grace of God, and the love he fills us with, we want to obey the law. This was my point. Not obeying them to win God's approval, for I know it is not my own righteousness in me, but Jesus' righteousness.

I know I am by far perfect. But I know when I do something wrong, I am convicted. How can I be convicted if the law no longer applies. I know we are under grace, but as the new testament says, what then shall we do? Should we keep on sinning? Certainly not! - The ten C's reveal to us what sin is. (Technically anything done that is not in faith is wrong, which kind of raises the bar if anything.)

Saved by grace, for free.... YES! And thank God, coz none of us are by far perfect. But do we just keep on sinning? (Except for the 4 laws of course?)
As the bible says, no, and it's not just the 4 laws. When the pharisees brought the prostitute to Jesus. He said who here without sin may throw the first stone. Obviously none of us are able to throw the stones. And Jesus said to the woman, your sins are forgiven (yes, for free). But then He said, go and do not sin again. The trick of course to not deliberately sin of course, is to be emmersed in God's Spirit, in His grace and love. In the old, people did not have this help, today, we do.

There is a clear distinction between the ten C's and the other laws. One side are issues of the heart, the other are external regulations. With the spirit's help... think about it! Do blue tassels hurt God or others? Does your beard put someone in danger of disobeying God? But what about murder? Theft? Envy? Clear difference!
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Unread 03-13-2006, 08:58 AM   #56
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Ok. If you are only to stick to the 4 commands, does that mean it is ok for you to murder, steal, envy and lie? There is a clear distinction between the ten commandments and the laws you are mentioning. The ten commandments were about sin. The others were regulations for the Jewish people to live by as a nation. The reason any of them were punished for breaking a regulation stems back to the ten commandments.

I suggest when you quote a scripture that you read all of it yourself. James 2:10 and 11. What does it mention? Adultery and murder. These are part of the ten C's. Just as every time Jesus mentioned the commandments, He only mentioned the ten commandments. Matthew 19:16 to 26. He clearly only speaks of the ten C's. Just another pointer towards the obvious. That while the laws you mentioned are connected, the ten on their own are separate, in that these are the ones to reveal sin. This is also scripture. The ten are about loving God and your neibgour, about issues of the heart, just as Jesus said. Beards and blue tassles clearly are not issues of the heart but external. I have read the whole bible and I know the laws you are talking about. But taken in context with descernment in the Holy Spirit, it does not take a whole lot to realise to difference.

I suggest you read Leviticus with Matthew 13:52 in mind. Take the new and old out of the storeroom. If descernment alone can't show you what matters and what doesn't matter, meaning what affects your relationship with God and people, then maybe it is safer for you to keep away from it altogether.

As Jesus said (something that seems to be ignored quite easily), He came NOT to do away with it, but to fulfill it. As I said before I KNOW WE ARE NOT SAVED BY THE LAW! But as Jesus says, "if you love me, you will obey me."

No longer do we serve in the old way, but in the new way of the spirit. God said, "I will write my laws on their hearts".

By the saving grace of God, and the love he fills us with, we want to obey the law. This was my point. Not obeying them to win God's approval, for I know it is not my own righteousness in me, but Jesus' righteousness.

I know I am by far perfect. But I know when I do something wrong, I am convicted. How can I be convicted if the law no longer applies. I know we are under grace, but as the new testament says, what then shall we do? Should we keep on sinning? Certainly not! - The ten C's reveal to us what sin is. (Technically anything done that is not in faith is wrong, which kind of raises the bar if anything.)

Saved by grace, for free.... YES! And thank God, coz none of us are by far perfect. But do we just keep on sinning? (Except for the 4 laws of course?)
As the bible says, no, and it's not just the 4 laws. When the pharisees brought the prostitute to Jesus. He said who here without sin may throw the first stone. Obviously none of us are able to throw the stones. And Jesus said to the woman, your sins are forgiven (yes, for free). But then He said, go and do not sin again. The trick of course to not deliberately sin of course, is to be emmersed in God's Spirit, in His grace and love. In the old, people did not have this help, today, we do.

There is a clear distinction between the ten C's and the other laws. One side are issues of the heart, the other are external regulations. With the spirit's help... think about it! Do blue tassels hurt God or others? Does your beard put someone in danger of disobeying God? But what about murder? Theft? Envy? Clear difference!
There is no clear distingtion between the laws of Moses. Is it a sin to eat pork? violate the sabbath? or have a statue of a bird?
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Unread 03-13-2006, 06:03 PM   #57
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There is no clear distingtion between the laws of Moses. Is it a sin to eat pork? violate the sabbath? or have a statue of a bird?
We are not talking about the tenC's by themselves [at least I'm not]. I am saying that we should try to follow those because Jesus restated THOSE in His ministry and and said to follow Him, He was blameless and followed the Ten C's. Therefore I'm not going to make up petty excuse that allow me to sin and not feel bad about it [I'm sorry if this sounds nasty I don't mean it that way. It just seems like that is what you are trying to do expecially after a lot of us have given you multiple scriptures where Jesus says you should try to live a good life and not be of the world!]
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Unread 03-13-2006, 06:11 PM   #58
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We are not talking about the tenC's by themselves [at least I'm not]. I am saying that we should try to follow those because Jesus restated THOSE in His ministry and and said to follow Him, He was blameless and followed the Ten C's. Therefore I'm not going to make up petty excuse that allow me to sin and not feel bad about it [I'm sorry if this sounds nasty I don't mean it that way. It just seems like that is what you are trying to do expecially after a lot of us have given you multiple scriptures where Jesus says you should try to live a good life and not be of the world!]
I am not doing that at all. What I am doing is deconstructing your rank and unbiblical legalism. Galatians takes a very dim view of elevating the law to a position where it must be obeyed. If you believe that following the mosaic law is part of sanctification, according to Galatians 3, Christ profits you nothing. Why do I make a big deal here? Because I have some sin I am wanting to justify? I don't think so. DO I worship other gods? No, kill people, non-resistant, checking in,, want to commit adultery? No, was a virgin till my wedding night. Want to disrespect parents? On the contrary, I had to learn to respect ones who were violent and abusive. A desire to covet? No, I would point you to a myriad of scriptures about lust in the NT.

My point is, the 10 commandments are part of the mosaic law. We as believers are not to follow the mosaic law or Christ's death is of no effect to us as we are not living by faith, but by law. The New Testament, last time I checked, gave us the standards of living for the gentile believer. You will see a lot of similarities to the OT law. Same author.
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Unread 03-13-2006, 06:20 PM   #59
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As I have said before: WE ARE SAVED BY JESUS AND HIM ALONE!! AMEN!!!

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The New Testament, last time I checked, gave us the standards of living for the gentile believer. You will see a lot of similarities to the OT law. Same author.
Amen! Yes I know we are not saved by the Ten C's, but we are asked to live that way because Jesus tells us to.

-As my pastor said this sunday: "We can come to Jesus as we are, but we can't stay as we are with Him." Basically we can come to Him as sinners, but once we accept Him into our lives there should be a change like yours obviously:
Quote:
DO I worship other gods? No, kill people, non-resistant, checking in,, want to commit adultery? No, was a virgin till my wedding night. Want to disrespect parents? On the contrary, I had to learn to respect ones who were violent and abusive. A desire to covet? No, I would point you to a myriad of scriptures about lust in the NT.
I'm assuming you didn't strive to live this way before you believed, so obviously you agree that there should be achange and you should try to live better.
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Unread 03-13-2006, 06:28 PM   #60
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As I have said before: WE ARE SAVED BY JESUS AND HIM ALONE!! AMEN!!!



Amen! Yes I know we are not saved by the Ten C's, but we are asked to live that way because Jesus tells us to.
This is wrong and unbiblical. (Jesus never says to follow the 10 commandments!)

Quote:
-As my pastor said this sunday: "We can come to Jesus as we are, but we can't stay as we are with Him." Basically we can come to Him as sinners, but once we accept Him into our lives there should be a change like yours obviously: I'm assuming you didn't strive to live this way before you believed, so obviously you agree that there should be achange and you should try to live better.
Actually for the most part I did. There should be a change, but that change is not a result of us striving to be better. Sanctification is a work of the Holy Spirit if you look at the subject from scripture.
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