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Unread 03-08-2006, 09:40 PM   #31
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The law is not in the New Testament. Galatians 3 makes some comments about trying to be sanctified through the law, which include the 10 commandments.. (That if you try that, Christ's death profits you nothing, this is serious stuff)
I'm not trying to be sanctified by following the law, I try to act like Jesus because I want to follow in His example and I wish to be an example towards others. I have definitly NOT kept the law [do I even have to say that ], so it would be stupid for me to argue that we are saved by it [unless I have a heard of animals ready to be sacrificed in the backyard ]

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Unread 03-09-2006, 06:47 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq
Read acts 15, the 10 commandments are not binding to the believer. Thats not about loving God. The 10 commandments are a part of the mosaic law. If you hold them as binding you must not trim your beards corners, wear blue tassels on your robe, not eat pork, etc. Read Acts 15 and Galatians 3.

You have composed a system of salvation through law.


The above are not in the 10 commandments! The ten commandments are about worshiping no god but the The Lord, loving God with all your heart, mind and soul, Do not make any images or bow to anything else, do not use God's name for evil, observe the sabbath, respect your mother and father, do not commit murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not accuse anyone falsely and do not desire another man's house, wife, etc.

Abreviated a little, but this is the ten commandments, pretty much the heart of Jesus. As Jesus said, He came to fulfill the law, not do away with it.

Matthew 13:52 "..... This means then, that every teacher of the law who becomes a disciple in the Kingdomof heaven is like a home owner who takes new and old things out of his storeroom."

We may not be "teachers of the law", but it shows us, we take the new and we take some old testament.

Other rituals, sacrifices and rules God commanded during Mose's time and both before and after then, were a picture of what was to come, cleansing rituals, the blood for sins, etc. Just as the Temple was a picture of the temple God is building. No longer do we need blood sacrifices, but we still offer sacrifices, sacrifice of worship, time, helping others, these are all the heart of sacrificing to God.

As far as the law was concerned, Jesus not only said He came to fulfil it and not do away with it, He even went a step further. He said even if in your heart you hate someone, you are guilty of murder! As with envying others, looking at another mans wife with want in your heart. This clearly ups the responsibilties to uphold God's law. But thank Jesus, we serve in the spirit, and by God's grace we are given the strength to grow in maturity in Him.

And thank Jesus if we fail, we have mercy, love and grace to pick us back up and get it right. But as the bible says, we do not use this grace to continue sinning. For then we have cheapened God's grace.

Aaron Adams - I love what you shared! Great scriptures!
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Unread 03-09-2006, 07:08 AM   #33
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Just a personal thought on the "sabbath" thing. Jesus said the sabbath was created for us. Yes we can be active on the sabbath, cook, get food, all that. But to me it is another picture of what Jesus wants for us. To not forsake the gathering of believers. I don't think that means we need to gather on Saturday (technically the real sabbath), but the heart of the sabbath was to gather together and worship God.

I believe it still applies today, in the sense that we too know we should not forsake gathering together regularly to worship God. Again "take the new and old". As Jesus siad, He came to fullfill the law. I (personally) think that is a fulfillment of this law, is to see believers regularly meeting together to worship Jesus, talk about Him, learn about Him and be the "priesthood of all believers", ministering and encouraging each other.

You see, I think the law, looked at through the Holy Spirit, is just as relevant today. Again, looked at through new testament lenses. We had a guy who is part of our team of churches who came over from South Africa. He shared about this very thing. If anyone is interested I could make it available for you, if that is allowed here of course. He just explains it in a great way. PM me if you want an audio copy, again if that is ok.

We are not saved by the law, this is absolutely true! We are saved when we repent of living our lives our way, and accept Jesus' way, and accept the gift of salvation. But when we grow in our love for Him who saved us, wwe want to obey Him. Can anybody think of a commandment they are quite happy to break (remember, looking through those lenses)?

Last edited by mat777; 03-09-2006 at 07:12 AM. Reason: Typos, gotta watch my spelling! ;-)
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Unread 03-09-2006, 08:53 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by mat777
Just a personal thought on the "sabbath" thing. Jesus said the sabbath was created for us. Yes we can be active on the sabbath, cook, get food, all that. But to me it is another picture of what Jesus wants for us. To not forsake the gathering of believers. I don't think that means we need to gather on Saturday (technically the real sabbath), but the heart of the sabbath was to gather together and worship God.

I believe it still applies today, in the sense that we too know we should not forsake gathering together regularly to worship God. Again "take the new and old". As Jesus siad, He came to fullfill the law. I (personally) think that is a fulfillment of this law, is to see believers regularly meeting together to worship Jesus, talk about Him, learn about Him and be the "priesthood of all believers", ministering and encouraging each other.

You see, I think the law, looked at through the Holy Spirit, is just as relevant today. Again, looked at through new testament lenses. We had a guy who is part of our team of churches who came over from South Africa. He shared about this very thing. If anyone is interested I could make it available for you, if that is allowed here of course. He just explains it in a great way. PM me if you want an audio copy, again if that is ok.

We are not saved by the law, this is absolutely true! We are saved when we repent of living our lives our way, and accept Jesus' way, and accept the gift of salvation. But when we grow in our love for Him who saved us, wwe want to obey Him. Can anybody think of a commandment they are quite happy to break (remember, looking through those lenses)?
That sounds all welland good, butis it biblical? The answer is no. We do notfollowthe old testament law. It was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, but after faith came, we are no longer under that scoolmaster. Acts 15 specifically lays down according to the Holy Spirit how much of the law carried over.Its 4 commands, and most people would be shocked to hear that 3 are dietary.


The heart of the sabbath was rest, not corporate worship. Our sabbath rest is described in Hebrews 4.

And yes I can think of several laws I am quite happy to break. I like to have acleanshaven face, so the whole no cutting the corners of my beard is one I happily break every morning.
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Unread 03-09-2006, 08:56 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Xantose
I'm not trying to be sanctified by following the law, I try to act like Jesus because I want to follow in His example and I wish to be an example towards others. I have definitly NOT kept the law [do I even have to say that ], so it would be stupid for me to argue that we are saved by it [unless I have a heard of animals ready to be sacrificed in the backyard ]
Then why use the 10 commandments as if they are not a part of the Torah?
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Unread 03-09-2006, 02:30 PM   #36
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Then why use the 10 commandments as if they are not a part of the Torah?
That question confussed me? [which isn't hard to do ] What do you mean?

I know the law is part of the Torah, but I was refering to what Jesus said in the New Testament and the rules He says to follow.
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Unread 03-09-2006, 02:37 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Xantose
That question confussed me? [which isn't hard to do ] What do you mean?

I know the law is part of the Torah, but I was refering to what Jesus said in the New Testament and the rules He says to follow.
but earlier you reffered to the decalogue. Why? A lot of Christians wrongfully elevate it as "the Law" as if it were the totality of God given law. Truth is, its merely a portion of the Mosaic law. I bring it up because its a very common problem.
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Unread 03-09-2006, 02:57 PM   #38
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but earlier you reffered to the decalogue. Why? A lot of Christians wrongfully elevate it as "the Law" as if it were the totality of God given law. Truth is, its merely a portion of the Mosaic law. I bring it up because its a very common problem.
-Yes, and I wanted to thank you for that, because you are right I was mistaken in the fact that I substituted the ten commandments for the mosiac law. I will now be sure to watch my tongue whenever I refer to the ten commandments and what Jesus said.
-But I think you see now what I MEANT. That what Jesus asks of us is close if not almost the same as the Ten Commandments.
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Unread 03-09-2006, 03:00 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Xantose
-Yes, and I wanted to thank you for that, because you are right I was mistaken in the fact that I substituted the ten commandments for the mosiac law. I will now be sure to watch my tongue whenever I refer to the ten commandments and what Jesus said.
-But I think you see now what I MEANT. That what Jesus asks of us is close if not almost the same as the Ten Commandments.
I still don't get some of your points. In no way can we ever cross the law enough to remove us from Grace. Look at David. Murder, check, adultery, check, disobeying direct, divine orders, check. Yet, he will on judgement day be the man after God's own heart and not listed amongst the murderers, pimps, and other such ilk in Revelation.
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Unread 03-09-2006, 04:15 PM   #40
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In no way can we ever cross the law enough to remove us from Grace.
So you are saying everyone is going to heaven?
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Unread 03-09-2006, 04:19 PM   #41
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So you are saying everyone is going to heaven?
No, but that those who are saved by grace are, whether they heed the law or not, still under grace. Its what Paul spoke about when he said all things were permissable, yet not all things are profitable.

Salvation is by grace, through faith, period.
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Unread 03-09-2006, 05:10 PM   #42
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Salvation is by grace, through faith, period.
Yes, I agree.

Quote:
No, but that those who are saved by grace are
-When are we saved by grace though? I'm just interested in your theology here.
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Unread 03-09-2006, 05:14 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Xantose
Yes, I agree.



-When are we saved by grace though? I'm just interested in your theology here.
When we have faith.
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Unread 03-09-2006, 09:19 PM   #44
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When we have faith.
Yes, I agree. I'm assuming you mean when we have faith in Jesus, that He is who He said He is, and that we believe that He rose on the third day?

-But don't we also need repentance?

This is what I found on repentance on the internet:

repentance

There are three Greek words used in the New Testament to denote repentance. (1.)
The verb _metamelomai_ is used of a change of mind, such as to produce regret or
even remorse on account of sin, but not necessarily a change of heart. This word
is used with reference to the repentance of Judas (Matt. 27:3).

(2.) Metanoeo,
meaning to change one's mind and purpose, as the result of after knowledge.
This verb, with (3) the cognate noun _metanoia_, is used of true repentance, a
change of mind and purpose and life, to which remission of sin is promised
.
Evangelical repentance consists of (1) a true sense of one's own guilt and
sinfulness; (2) an apprehension of God's mercy in Christ; (3) an actual hatred
of sin
(Ps. 119:128; Job 42:5, 6; 2 Cor. 7:10) and turning from it to God; and
(4) a persistent endeavour after a holy life in a walking with God in the way
of his commandments. The true penitent is conscious of guilt
(Ps. 51:4, 9), of
pollution (51:5, 7, 10), and of helplessness (51:11; 109:21, 22). Thus he
apprehends himself to be just what God has always seen him to be and declares
him to be. But repentance comprehends not only such a sense of sin, but also an
apprehension of mercy, without which there can be no true repentance
(Ps. 51:1;
130:4).

-I like that last line and I think we can both agree on that.
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Unread 03-09-2006, 10:24 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xantose
Yes, I agree. I'm assuming you mean when we have faith in Jesus, that He is who He said He is, and that we believe that He rose on the third day?

-But don't we also need repentance?

This is what I found on repentance on the internet:

repentance

There are three Greek words used in the New Testament to denote repentance. (1.)
The verb _metamelomai_ is used of a change of mind, such as to produce regret or
even remorse on account of sin, but not necessarily a change of heart. This word
is used with reference to the repentance of Judas (Matt. 27:3).

(2.) Metanoeo,
meaning to change one's mind and purpose, as the result of after knowledge.
This verb, with (3) the cognate noun _metanoia_, is used of true repentance, a
change of mind and purpose and life, to which remission of sin is promised
.
Evangelical repentance consists of (1) a true sense of one's own guilt and
sinfulness; (2) an apprehension of God's mercy in Christ; (3) an actual hatred
of sin
(Ps. 119:128; Job 42:5, 6; 2 Cor. 7:10) and turning from it to God; and
(4) a persistent endeavour after a holy life in a walking with God in the way
of his commandments. The true penitent is conscious of guilt
(Ps. 51:4, 9), of
pollution (51:5, 7, 10), and of helplessness (51:11; 109:21, 22). Thus he
apprehends himself to be just what God has always seen him to be and declares
him to be. But repentance comprehends not only such a sense of sin, but also an
apprehension of mercy, without which there can be no true repentance
(Ps. 51:1;
130:4).

-I like that last line and I think we can both agree on that.

Who is responsible for salvation and sanctification?
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