U.S. [hearts] China, hates Cuba

TheProdigalModern · 02-01-2006, 12:33 PM

This has been bothering me for quite a while:

The U.S. does not do any business with Cuba--and has all sorts of embargos slapped on Cuban goods, to boot--because they are a Communist country.

China practically has (and may have--I'm not on the up-and-up) MFN trade status with the U.S. They, too, are Communist.

Am I missing something, or is the government just overlooking China's Communist ruling party because there is more potential for trade with them? I mean, Castro's no kitten, but what is he doing that is so much worse than the Chinese?

**Epaphras** · 02-01-2006, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vershal

This has been bothering me for quite a while:

The U.S. does not do any business with Cuba--and has all sorts of embargos slapped on Cuban goods, to boot--because they are a Communist country.

China practically has (and may have--I'm not on the up-and-up) MFN trade status with the U.S. They, too, are Communist.

Am I missing something, or is the government just overlooking China's Communist ruling party because there is more potential for trade with them? I mean, Castro's no kitten, but what is he doing that is so much worse than the Chinese?

Americans can survive without Cuban cigars.

American's can't seem to cope with the possibility of no Nikes...

bobthecockroach · 02-01-2006, 01:23 PM

Yeah... I don't think much can be added to that. We need China a heck of a lot more than we need Cuba.

JerryLove · 02-01-2006, 01:39 PM

Our morality is for sale, so long as WalMart has cheap DVD players.

When did Cuba run over protesters with tanks or invade Tibet?

"BrooksB" · 02-01-2006, 01:40 PM

Yeah, we need china for its immense supply of cheap labor so we can focus our country on higher-paying service type jobs and so unskilled factory workers will have to cope by getting educated in some fashion in order to be competitive in a more specialized labor market. But it's all so we can have higher consumption, so the actual need for this type of activity is questionable.

jfahler03 · 02-01-2006, 09:56 PM

I agree with what's been stated - especially Jerry's great quote. The following is pretty much what BrooksB said - with elaboration for those of you who don't know and are dorky enough to want to know - with my own fun little twist.

If we look at it, capitalism (especially capitalism with a Made in America label) can be seen as to blame.

First, we destroy our primary sector of our economy or just plain ignoring it by relying upon things like foreign oil. Next, we off the secondary by shipping jobs to --- China (and the rest of that part of the world). Now we're stuck with a tertiary sector based economy that can't seem to get any work. Or when it does it has to charge gas for $2.50 a gallon.

While that isn't uniform (i.e. we still have a lot of agricultural output - in relation to the primary sector comment), it happens - especially with important things like oil and sneakers.

As I put my pajamas which were made in Bangladesh on tonight I'll think of this. I'm such a hippy.

Nate · 02-01-2006, 10:01 PM

*hint* don't complain about our gas prices when making economic arguments about our inefficiency as a producer, as said prices are among the cheapest in the world (read: the world outside of the middle east and east asia) */hint*

jfahler03 · 02-01-2006, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate

*hint* don't complain about our gas prices when making economic arguments about our inefficiency as a producer, as said prices are among the cheapest in the world (read: the world outside of the middle east and east asia) */hint*

I know - but wouldn't tapping local reserves lower the price? We already know the oil's there - it's been there.

Nate · 02-01-2006, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfahler03

I know - but wouldn't tapping local reserves lower the price? We already know the oil's there - it's been there.

Not necessarily... it very well might cost us more to produce oil domestically than to buy that same oil off the world market, even with all the mess that is the oil market. I can't say for sure either way, but domestic production is not always the answer.

It's important to consider all costs when considering the scenario. The people who would lose jobs in the transportation industry is a cost, the people who would switch jobs to the new production of oil is a cost (their wages forgone in their previous employments), the value of the land put to use as oil-rigs or drilling / pumping stations (as opposed to merely left empty or put to another use) is a cost. There are many costs other than the ones that are first apparent.

JerryLove · 02-02-2006, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Yeah, we need china for its immense supply of cheap labor so we can focus our country on higher-paying service type jobs and so unskilled factory workers will have to cope by getting educated in some fashion in order to be competitive in a more specialized labor market.

I wish I thought that this was sarcasam.

1. Service jobs are generally *lower* paying than manufacturing.
2. Service jobs are also being offshored. Transcription, call-center support, accounting, even reading CT scans and MRIs are being farmed out to centers in India, China, and Malaysia.

Considering an apartment can be rented in China for $10 per month, It's not clear to me what job a US worker could possibly do and sell to China.

jfahler03 · 02-02-2006, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerryLove

1. Service jobs are generally *lower* paying than manufacturing.
2. Service jobs are also being offshored. Transcription, call-center support, accounting, even reading CT scans and MRIs are being farmed out to centers in India, China, and Malaysia.

Yeah - that's something I personally neglected too. But the transformation of our economy to mostly a service economy has had the major effect - right?

Any folks out there going into computer science? How much has its job market gown down since the industry's outsourcing I hear of?

PaidInFull · 02-02-2006, 10:44 AM

Chinesse people arnt trying to cross our borders illegaly.

jfahler03 · 02-02-2006, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaidInFull

Chinesse people arnt trying to cross our borders illegaly.

Yes they are.

China (incl. Taiwan) INS Estimate: 226,886
Census Beauru Estimate: 115,000

Source (and comparable chart): http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServe...suecentersb8ca

Note that the Census Beauru estimate for China is more than Iran and the rest of the Middle East combined. North and Central America do have far greater numbers at about 5 million, making up 5/8ths of the illegal immigrant population.

Edit: sorry; the Middle East is based on the Census Beauru - which would make it about the same as China. The numbers still present the fact that it's happening. Saying it's just not happening is ignoring it. I found the illegal immigrants from Europe as pretty interesting... especially industrialized nations such as Germany, England, etc.

JerryLove · 02-02-2006, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Any folks out there going into computer science? How much has its job market gown down since the industry's outsourcing I hear of?

I'm a computer engineer. My previous job is now done in India. The job I am at now is expected to be outsourced to Malaysia. I don't know where I'll be working next year, the job market is noteably down since the last time I went job hunting (about 6 years ago).

I personally know more than a dozen people in my industry who can cite at least one job that they were laid-off from when their position was outsorced, and the number I know outside my field is signifigantly higher (as I've been at call-centers that were entirely outsourced).

Have you looked at the change in average pay-rates of new jobs vs old lost in relation to the past 6 years?

In all fairness, Bush didn't start this problem; but at the time when the ability to off-shore from the US was really opened-up; there were far more tech and service industry jobs than Americans to fill them. That changed post-bubble, and we need to close the flood gates.

Grasshopper359 · 02-04-2006, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfahler03

I know - but wouldn't tapping local reserves lower the price? We already know the oil's there - it's been there.

Tapping domestic reserves probably would lower the oil price (by how much, though, is anybody's guess), but they won't do it unless they absolutely have to. At the current rate of consumption, current known US domestic oil reserves would be gone in less than 5 years. The US goverment is keeping this as kind of an emergency bank account for oil, in case things get really rough with their suppliers, and they need to go it alone for a couple of years until they could find a new dealer.

Quote:

The U.S. does not do any business with Cuba--and has all sorts of embargos slapped on Cuban goods, to boot--because they are a Communist country.

"Makes the world go 'round."
"What's that?"
"Gold."
"Some people say 'love'."
"Well, they're right too. It is love. Love of gold."

-Gene Hackman and Delroy Lindo in "Heist."