[H.M. Murdock]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

It is not our place to decide someone is or is not a Christian based on denomination.

Beautifully said. This concept applies to Protestant denominations as well. If we are to judge a denonimation's ability to reach salvation by their doctrines, then should we not also say that a church that supports the killing of homosexuals for their sin cannot find Christ because they do not support grace, love and forgiveness?
Doctrine doesn't dictate salvation, intrinsically. A man can be destined for heaven, but can believe fully in something that is sinful. A homosexual can be saved- one of the strongest Christians I know is gayer than wearing socks with sandals. In the same way, a man can be saved and still hold the beliefs of Roman Catholicism in many ways. The result of it, however, would be that it hinders or misguides their walk with Christ, weakening and retarding their spiritual growth, or directing it altogether away from God and towards other things.

It's because of this that, personally, I would advise that the girl learn about Catholicism and Protestantism. It's perfectly possible that she is only Catholic because she knows neither herself nor her denomination. It is also possible that she has never seen Protestantism represented truthfully and therefore has settled for Catholicism. Third and finally, it is possible that she just goes through the motions and doesn't care, but could care. Very much of this girl's belief hinges on our intrepid hero's ability to represent Christ. This is a beautiful chance to grow, for both of you. It is because of this that I would say to stay away from a romantic relationship- or at least expressions of romance, or even admissions of romantic intentiones- and focus on growing in Christ and becoming true friends. Then you can worry about dating her.

Edit: It is important to note, when it comes to denominational prejudices, that such things often come from a lack of knowledge. In any event, we should first know our neighbors before declaring them enemies. If they are labelled as enemies (catholic versus protestant, for example) but do not know the merits of either side, then it's not our place to declare them our unconditional foes, but rather, to help them decide. This is not done by calling them heretics. That causes a kneejerk reaction and strengthens fortitude, even if it is fortitude standing on an entirely idiotic notion. That is why the socratic method exists- ask questions to make the person prove not to you but to themself that they are right. This is the number one reason for changing a belief; a man asking himself, "what if I am not right?"

[ICTHUS]

Originally Posted by H.M. Murdock

It's because of this that, personally, I would advise that the girl learn about Catholicism and Protestantism. It's perfectly possible that she is only Catholic because she knows neither herself nor her denomination. It is also possible that she has never seen Protestantism represented truthfully and therefore has settled for Catholicism. Third and finally, it is possible that she just goes through the motions and doesn't care, but could care. Very much of this girl's belief hinges on our intrepid hero's ability to represent Christ. This is a beautiful chance to grow, for both of you. It is because of this that I would say to stay away from a romantic relationship- or at least expressions of romance, or even admissions of romantic intentiones- and focus on growing in Christ and becoming true friends. Then you can worry about dating her.

I would second Jason's advice, with one caveat. Our intrepid hero himself should learn about Roman Catholicism. Show her what her church actually teaches. I don't know if you are aware, but Roman Catholicism actually says that Protestants are going to Hell for believing in the things we do.

http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2005/...canons-on.html

Canon IV teaches semi-Pelagianism. Canon V fails to take into account a Biblical anthropology as expressed in Eph 2:1-10. Canon IX contradicts Romans 4....

I could go on and on.

[H.M. Murdock]

Originally Posted by ICTHUS

I would second Jason's advice, with one caveat. Our intrepid hero himself should learn about Roman Catholicism. Show her what her church actually teaches. I don't know if you are aware, but Roman Catholicism actually says that Protestants are going to Hell for believing in the things we do.

And you advocate that Catholics go to hell for what they believe. Hm.
At any rate, I would say that the fellow needs to concentrate on knowing Protestantism. He is not Catholic, therefore he needs no convincing that it is bad/wrong/heinous. She, however, is Catholic by name at least, and it would be prudent to help her weigh the two systems. She has damage to potentially undo, so she needs to learn about the wrong before she can know the right. He, however, is grounded in the right and needs to expand in that before he can study anything else. Fundamentals before battle, my son.

[ICTHUS]

Originally Posted by H.M. Murdock

And you advocate that Catholics go to hell for what they believe. Hm.

Only if (and this is a big if) they take everything that Rome teaches, consistently, to it's logical end, which is salvation by works. In Greg Bahnsen's words (paraphrased):

"I'm sure there are some Roman Catholics who just give up on theology altogether and say "I'm going to trust in Jesus, and Jesus alone""

Jason, I don't know how familiar you are with official Roman Catholic teaching, but, among other things, Rome teaches that:

1. The communion service (Mass) is a propitiatory sacrifice to God.
2. Justification before a holy God is earned by a synergism of faith and works, plainly contradicting Romans 4.
3. Man's will must co-operate with God's grace, and may render it ineffectual by resistance. This makes man's co-operation not only a necessary, but sufficent, condition, for making such faith obtain unto salvation.

At any rate, I would say that the fellow needs to concentrate on knowing Protestantism. He is not Catholic, therefore he needs no convincing that it is bad/wrong/heinous. She, however, is Catholic by name at least, and it would be prudent to help her weigh the two systems. She has damage to potentially undo, so she needs to learn about the wrong before she can know the right. He, however, is grounded in the right and needs to expand in that before he can study anything else. Fundamentals before battle, my son.

I agree with you, Jason - our intrepid hero should know his own beliefs. However, I would also give him Sun Tzu's advice - "Know thine adversary". John Roberson (mustbenothing at the time) could not have helped me reform to the Scriptures when I was a Roman Catholic myself unless he had some knowledge of the doctrine I was attempting to submit to.

[H.M. Murdock]

Originally Posted by ICTHUS

I agree with you, Jason - our intrepid hero should know his own beliefs. However, I would also give him Sun Tzu's advice - "Know thine adversary". John Roberson (mustbenothing at the time) could not have helped me reform to the Scriptures when I was a Roman Catholic myself unless he had some knowledge of the doctrine I was attempting to submit to.

An excellent example. But I think John has a solid grasp of his protestant stance, does he not? I am not getting the sense that he can be a huge help in converting her unless he knows his own side first. Sun Tzu, before advocating knowing one's enemy, first emphasized explicitly for several chapter that your own army must be in order and you must know it better than you know yourself. Then and only then did he advocate making moves to know your enemy because, he reasoned, until you were prepared to deal with what you learned, it was genuinely self-defeating to learn about your enemy.

[Chris]

Ok, so this is the second moderatorial request. If you want to discuss the RCC's teachings, take it to theology. Honestly, I'm surprised I even have to repeat what Bob said but you all clearly blew right past and paid him no mind. If this discussion continues I will split it.

[ICTHUS]

Ok, so this is the second moderatorial request. If you want to discuss the RCC's teachings, take it to theology. Honestly, I'm surprised I even have to repeat what Bob said but you all clearly blew right past and paid him no mind. If this discussion continues I will split it.

Ok, Chris. I had something else to say to Jason on this topic. It was simply closing remarks, and a concession. I'll just say it and then I have a feeling this line of discussion will be good and dead (since there's no more contention left).

Originally Posted by Previously, I

I agree with you, Jason - our intrepid hero should know his own beliefs. However, I would also give him Sun Tzu's advice - "Know thine adversary". John Roberson (mustbenothing at the time) could not have helped me reform to the Scriptures when I was a Roman Catholic myself unless he had some knowledge of the doctrine I was attempting to submit to.

Originally Posted by Jason

An excellent example. But I think John has a solid grasp of his protestant stance, does he not? I am not getting the sense that he can be a huge help in converting her unless he knows his own side first. Sun Tzu, before advocating knowing one's enemy, first emphasized explicitly for several chapter that your own army must be in order and you must know it better than you know yourself. Then and only then did he advocate making moves to know your enemy because, he reasoned, until you were prepared to deal with what you learned, it was genuinely self-defeating to learn about your enemy

You're right, of course. John does know his Protestant position and how to defend it, very well. I think we're largely talking past each other. Neither of us is advocating that he rush into this relationship headlong without becoming accquainted with Roman Catholicism, but I see your point that he ought to know his own beliefs pretty much like the back of his hand before he goes and tries to know Rome's teachings.

Do I pretty much have your meaning? If not, PM me, so as not to anger the mods.

[sallyjr]

It's been a while since I've visited this thread. I'm disappointed how it turned out because it seemed like some people have used this as their venue to talk about Protestants vs Catholics.

Regardless I feel the need to provide an update so hopefully it will be of some use to someone later on if they have have the same predicament as I do. I'll refer to her as J from now on.

J and I have continued to be friends. I find these moments really helpful because the topic of relationship does come up. We talk about what we are looking for in a spouse. Since we are not dating there is no pressure please the other person with our answer. If we had started an intimate relationship I don't think the same level of honesty is as easily achieved since there are no expectations.

I haven't told her of these thoughts that have been going around in my mind. I don't think I need to at this point. It currently doesn't affect our relationship. I pray that my emotions correctly reflect reality and not frame it.

As for the theological difference, she does ask me what are the difference between catholics and protestants. I tell her what little I know and encourage her to go into her look into the pinnings of her faith more. Right now I've let her borrow my copy of What's so amazing about Grace and I've been reading articles of catholic news letter that comes to her doorstep twice a week. She joked I should go to a singles for Christ night at her church then proceeded to find the times for me in the news letter of her church.

I've been careful to guard my heart during this whole time. I've been in a relationship before with at protestant "christian" girl and know that sometimes the label doesn't correctly identify the contents. I've decided to approach this relationship with J with much more caution cause I know how dangerous assumptions can be.

Right now I enjoy the time I spend with J. I do pray for more clairty on this and I will try to be as transparent in all my post.

[sallyjr]

I noticed some people have been concerned if I know myself What I believe and Why I believe. In my first post I mentioned I"m not a theologian but that explictily meant I'm not a scholar. I can probably provide better contrast between Islam, Hinduism and Christianity than between protestant denominations. I also plan on attending seminary next year. I guess what I'm trying to say is I can hold my own but thank you for those who have asked cause it has encouraged me to build a better foundation for my faith.

[H.M. Murdock]

Originally Posted by sallyjr

It's been a while since I've visited this thread. I'm disappointed how it turned out because it seemed like some people have used this as their venue to talk about Protestants vs Catholics.

Important note: That wasn't my intention. I did, for some part, debate Ryan. Sure. But I wasn't doing it out of a beef or just to debate. If it wasn't clear, then I apologize, but I was attempting to explain how the differences in denominations could be seen and reacted to in your situation. Poorly, of course, but at least I tried. [/suckup]
As for everything else, good on the both of you. I am praying for you and J.

[sallyjr]

Originally Posted by H.M. Murdock

Important note: That wasn't my intention. I did, for some part, debate Ryan. Sure. But I wasn't doing it out of a beef or just to debate. If it wasn't clear, then I apologize, but I was attempting to explain how the differences in denominations could be seen and reacted to in your situation. Poorly, of course, but at least I tried. [/suckup]
As for everything else, good on the both of you. I am praying for you and J.

It wasn't directed at one person in particular. I appreciate the dialogue but it honestly wasn't what I was looking for. Thanks for your concern though. I know this is something with a lot of potential hazzards and that's why I posted in the first place. To educate myself. Thanks again for your input.

[ICTHUS]

Originally Posted by sallyjr

It's been a while since I've visited this thread. I'm disappointed how it turned out because it seemed like some people have used this as their venue to talk about Protestants vs Catholics.

Regardless I feel the need to provide an update so hopefully it will be of some use to someone later on if they have have the same predicament as I do. I'll refer to her as J from now on.

J and I have continued to be friends. I find these moments really helpful because the topic of relationship does come up. We talk about what we are looking for in a spouse. Since we are not dating there is no pressure please the other person with our answer. If we had started an intimate relationship I don't think the same level of honesty is as easily achieved since there are no expectations.

I haven't told her of these thoughts that have been going around in my mind. I don't think I need to at this point. It currently doesn't affect our relationship. I pray that my emotions correctly reflect reality and not frame it.

As for the theological difference, she does ask me what are the difference between catholics and protestants. I tell her what little I know and encourage her to go into her look into the pinnings of her faith more. Right now I've let her borrow my copy of What's so amazing about Grace and I've been reading articles of catholic news letter that comes to her doorstep twice a week. She joked I should go to a singles for Christ night at her church then proceeded to find the times for me in the news letter of her church.

I've been careful to guard my heart during this whole time. I've been in a relationship before with at protestant "christian" girl and know that sometimes the label doesn't correctly identify the contents. I've decided to approach this relationship with J with much more caution cause I know how dangerous assumptions can be.

Right now I enjoy the time I spend with J. I do pray for more clairty on this and I will try to be as transparent in all my post.

I'd say you're approaching this rightly, Sallyjr. Good job.

Did you get my PM?