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Unread 01-13-2006, 12:45 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
However, 90% of the time that it is used . . . and I would err on 95% for that matter . . . it is used because the guitarist in question is grossly ignorant about barre chords, and what you can actually do with them.
agreed...or that the guitarist isnt' as comfortable with barre chords.
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Plus, I don't do a lot of (read: any ) praise and worship songs, so I still don't get this concept of different keys and one key being harder than another and so on.
i don't think this is as much a playing issue as a vocal issue. if i am leading worship, and my singer's can't sing the song in G because it's too low, it's easier for me to capo up and keep playing the same music than it is to transpose the music in my head which would just add another task to do mentally...this being the case if i'm playing open chords on acoustic.
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I mean, when you have a full compliment of barre chords at your disposal, and integrated at that thanks to the CAGED System, then exactly how is one key going to be different from another? Transposing should be as simple as moving your compliment of barre chords up a few frets just as you would a capo.

I mean, with a barre chord, you have 12 different places within the octave to play that chord (and it's siblings). That should more than cover your 12 different keys.

So, iow, if I'm vamping along on some barre chords at or around the 4th position, and I wanted to transpose something 3 frets higher, then why reach for a capo? Why not just play those chord forms three frets higher, around the 7th fret?
with barre chords i fully agree. ultimately, barre chords ARE a capo, or actually, a capo allows you to simulate a barre chord (in which the "barre" is just replacing the nut ultimately)
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Unless you're playing with drone strings or doing incredibly exotic chord voicings, exactly how are different keys a factor?

I always wondered this. Could a theory ace like Nate or someone weigh in on this?

And I mean, give me an insightful, educated, experienced answer beyond "it's easier to strum Kumbiya up higher on the neck" or something.

Chesh
like i noted earlier, i also can't think of how key changing would change if all you're playing is barre chords...unless you're simply limited by playing ability and/or hand strength.

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Unread 01-13-2006, 01:05 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thesteve
agreed...or that the guitarist isnt' as comfortable with barre chords.i don't think this is as much a playing issue as a vocal issue. if i am leading worship, and my singer's can't sing the song in G because it's too low, it's easier for me to capo up and keep playing the same music than it is to transpose the music in my head which would just add another task to do mentally...this being the case if i'm playing open chords on acoustic. with barre chords i fully agree. ultimately, barre chords ARE a capo, or actually, a capo allows you to simulate a barre chord (in which the "barre" is just replacing the nut ultimately)
like i noted earlier, i also can't think of how key changing would change if all you're playing is barre chords...unless you're simply limited by playing ability and/or hand strength.
Well, the other reason I can see is if the Cantor (went to a Catholic Church) is busy strumming, singing, leading any other musicians, cantoring, and the whole gamut. If that is the case I see nothing wrong with slapping on a capo, because it isn't about guitar playing at that point, it's about heavy multitasking, and virtuosity on the guitar for the sake of a few Kumbiya chords is sort of a pointless exercise.

So, the whole bit with certain keys being harder than others . . . does that mean "harder on the vocalist", with the rest of the ensemble compensating? Like I said, I don't play in that context, so I don't have any experience with it.
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Unread 01-13-2006, 01:15 PM   #63
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So, the whole bit with certain keys being harder than others . . . does that mean "harder on the vocalist", with the rest of the ensemble compensating? Like I said, I don't play in that context, so I don't have any experience with it.
ithat's all i can think of. i know at church we'll often practice a song in G, realize its too low for part of the ensemble, then our leader will capo up to A and leave me (bassist) compensating.
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Unread 01-13-2006, 01:24 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by thesteve
ithat's all i can think of. i know at church we'll often practice a song in G, realize its too low for part of the ensemble, then our leader will capo up to A and leave me (bassist) compensating.
Well, yeah, but that should be easy enough for you. We all know that bass is easier than guitar because it has only four strings while a guitar has six, so, it's like, a third easier.

And obviously guitars with 12 strings are twice as hard as guitars with 6 strings cuz, like, that's just simple math. Everyone knows that.
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Unread 01-13-2006, 01:27 PM   #65
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*Dave looks around, scanning the crowd, wondering WHO will take the bait...*

Real Men don't use capos.

*There...let's sit back and watch the coming firestorm...*
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Unread 01-13-2006, 01:33 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by gtrdave
*Dave looks around, scanning the crowd, wondering WHO will take the bait...*

Real Men don't use capos.

*There...let's sit back and watch the coming firestorm...*
man...wait until i tell my girlfriend...she'll be so disappointed.
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Unread 01-13-2006, 02:24 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by thesteve
ithat's all i can think of. i know at church we'll often practice a song in G, realize its too low for part of the ensemble, then our leader will capo up to A and leave me (bassist) compensating.
In general, when doing modern worship songs for the "masses" in a church environment, you're somewhat limited by the melody line that most people can sing, so...I refer back to the newsboys example. Almost no one can sing in the keys those songs are recorded in, so if you're doing it in church, it typically requires you drop it by 2 steps or more so as to find a better range that it can be sung in. So, in that regard, if you've got music or whatever for some fairly basic rythmn chord progressions, the capo is a great tool to use so you can play standard chord fingerings (without Barre) and not overthink it.

For lead and other stuff like that, it's usually better to stay higher on the neck and use other alternative chord formations anyway, so the capo won't help you.

That all being said, in all of my worship leading experience, I probably only use the capo 5% of the time.
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Unread 01-13-2006, 03:44 PM   #68
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I use a capo very often. that does not mean I am not a compent guitar player. Say there is a song in Eb that you like, and you can sing that song very well in that key, but you can't or don't want to play in the key of Eb. (Who does?) So you capo on the 1st fret and play it in D. That is a heck of a lot easier than playing barred chords. I've used capos on Electrics; granted, barrd chords are easier to do on electric than an acoustic, but who in their right mind would want to play barred chords for a whole entire song?

12 strings aren't that hard. (use a capo) j/k Actually they are fairly easy, you just need to have the action lower so it's easier to play.
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Unread 01-13-2006, 03:45 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by guitarduck
but who in their right mind would want to play barred chords for a whole entire song?
uhh...oh gosh...i can think of tons of people, and also reasons why.
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Unread 01-13-2006, 04:35 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarduck
...but who in their right mind would want to play barred chords for a whole entire song?
I'm fairly certain that I'm in my 'right mind' and I play barre chords for a whole entire song...several whole entire songs, actually...used to be I'd play 4 hours-a-night of whole songs with no capo...6 nights-a-week.

Yet I digress...if the capo works for you, wonderful. It works for me, too. But it should not be a crutch that is used in-place-of proper technique because of an unwillingness to learn and/or execute proper technique.

But I like half-step key changes, too, so there you go.
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Unread 01-13-2006, 05:45 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thesteve
if i am leading worship, and my singer's can't sing the song in G because it's too low, it's easier for me to capo up and keep playing the same music than it is to transpose the music in my head which would just add another task to do mentally...
In my praise band, me and the other guitarist have almost entirely given up on chord sheets. We can both do all the changes for all the simple P&W songs (meaning, all the P&W songs... ) by ear, so transposition is not a problem. We just ask what key to play what song in, and we do it.

So is using the capo a crutch to transposition?
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Unread 01-13-2006, 06:34 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarduck
I use a capo very often. that does not mean I am not a compent guitar player.
Define "compent". (Yes, I mean that in both senses.)

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but who in their right mind would want to play barred chords for a whole entire song?
You're kidding, right?

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12 strings aren't that hard. (use a capo) j/k Actually they are fairly easy, you just need to have the action lower so it's easier to play.
That was a joke.
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Unread 01-13-2006, 10:28 PM   #73
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if playing with a capo is a crutch, then so is playing with a pick.

real men are confident enough in their manhood to play with a capo and not worry what other guitar players think of it.

i still say use it if you want to, if you don't that's fine too. why do you guys really care whether someone else uses one or not?

p.s. ~ i don't generally like using a capo, but it's not because i think it's a crutch. actually the only time i use one lately is just at the 5th fret so i can play ukulele chord forms that i'm used to. i probably won't do that once i can afford another uke though.
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Unread 01-13-2006, 10:59 PM   #74
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I'm hijacking this thread.

I used to use a capo frequently, on an acoustic. My acoustic playing became less and less frequent, and along with it did my capo use. Eventually my old acoustic (an Alvarez) was stolen, and one of my capos was in the case. In conclusin, I havent played with a capo in several years.

I'm back playing more acoustic now, and so I just bought a new capo. This one:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/...se_pid/361600/

The same kind I used to use. While I use it primarily for acoustic, there may be a song or two in which might may be useful on electric (at the moment, "Everything" by Tye Tribbett, I tune down to Eb and the song is in E). Here's the thing: using this capo on my strat, it plays horribly sharp on the majority of the strings. What's up with that? Do I need a different capo for electric? I certainly hope not, at $15 a piece these things add up. It's not the guitar, it has perfect action, intonation, and I recently got the frets re-dressed. Advice? Thanks.

Last edited by mt_spiffy; 01-13-2006 at 11:31 PM.
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Unread 01-13-2006, 11:37 PM   #75
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mt_spiffy,

i guessed you had a kyser before i even clicked on the link . some people like those. personally i don't because it causes the problems you're having depending on the guitar. try a shubb capo. there is a small screw you can turn to adjust the tension on it for whatever guitar you're putting it on. that way your strings aren't pulled out of tune so much like with the kyser.
shubb is the lowest cost one i know of that is quality and you can adjust tension on.
get it here if you get one:
http://www.shorelinemusic.com
you'll get free shipping and a great price.
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