[Demon_Hunter]

Originally Posted by plawren53202

Show me a scientific study demonstrating that ice cream, caffiene or anything else you've mentioned causes a measurable reduction in sensory, judgment abilities. The data is there for alcohol; it's not for these other things.

It is a well accepted fact that most things that you consume have some kind of mind altering effect.

This is why I HATE HATE HATE this discussion. Every time, the pro-alcohol crowd always end up in this hyper-ridiculous "yeah, but ice cream makes you relaxed", "yeah, but you can't say your Dr. Pepper glorifies God," "yeah, but how does eating peanut butter point others to God", yeah but... yeah but... stuff.

It is not ridiculous. If you intend to use the argument "If it doesnt glorify God" then we have the right to use the same argument against your position. The fact is, You can prohibit any number of things by saying, "well, can you really glorify God with that?". It is a meaningless argument in cases regarding the consumption of food, or drink.

Here's the bottom line. I can give you numerous Bible verses warning about alcohol. I can give you scientific studies proving it clouds your judgment. I can give you, literally, a hundred examples of people I know personally who got into bad, bad situations and alcohol (many/most times, only in "moderation") was a central part of their story. And I can point to MANY of my friends who grew up in church, and when they got to college, they made the "show me where the Bible says drinking in moderation is wrong" argument on their path out of church and away from any relationship with God, permanently.

Ever wonder if it was the church's ignorance and "hyper-ridiculous" stance on prohibition that eventually drove those people away? Ive seen in numerous cases where the Church has aided in driving people away from Christ with its own actions. Also, perhaps these people already had things in their lives that were pushing them away from the church. Friends of mine who were alchoholics, alot of times point out issues in their lives that were going on long before they became addicted.

As a lawyer, that's the evidence on my side. Inevitably, the best the alcohol advocates can do is "yeah but peanut butter, yeah but Dr. Pepper" kind of thing. Can I conclusively "prove" that drinking is "wrong?" Maybe not, but given the heavy weight of evidence on one side and the relatively few, weak, hyper-technical arguments on the other, I can make a pretty strong case that it's not in the best interests of a Christian's relationship with God to do it.

There is no evidence to support the claim that drinking in small amounts, or moderation leads to any harm spiritually, or for that matter physically. Abuse of any substance can lead to problems. Even drinking to much water can kill you. Paul preached moderation in all things because he knew that excess in any area could lead to sin, or health issues. Why demonize alchohol because some choose to abuse it, and others dont?

[plawren53202]

I had decided to let this one die over the weekend, but was amused to take a look today and find out that the debate rages on.

Everyone on here seems to fancy themselves to be a scientist and able to extrapolate, with the same scientific precision as doctorate-holding chemists and biologists, that ice cream, Dr. Pepper and other inconspicuous substances amazingly have exactly the same mind-altering effects as alcohol. Funny, the dumb ole' government only bans driving after having consumed a certain amount of alcohol, but not these other vicious, mind-altering substances. I guess the government needs to catch up with the level of scientific advancement on this board.

In any case, I'm going to restate my position in slightly more personal terms. Let me give you examples of the effect of alcohol on people I've personally known:
Childhood friend--killed by a drunk driver
College friend--crashed car and killed his best friend, and wasn't charged with a DWI because he was under the legal limit
High school friend--tried marijuana for the first time (of many to follow) because, according to his own words, "that one beer loosened me up enough to get over my apprehensions about it"
Close acquaintance--after two beers, decided to go on a motorcycle ride with a man not her husband, led to an affair. Again, her own words: "I'm sure that I wouldn't have made the decision if I hadn't had a couple of drinks first, and none of this would have happened."
High school acquaintance--barely over the legal limit, swerved off the road and hit a pedestrian, then left the scene, ended up spending 2 years in prison
For the sake of brevity, I could go on but won't.

Does that mean that every time you take one drink of alcohol, these things will happen? NO. But here's my point...I've recited over and over, in scientific and now personal terms, the terrible things drinking has caused. Doesn't mean that drinking WILL cause them every time. But you've got your head buried in the sand if you can't admit that drinking, even if you intend to only in moderation, opens a huge door for a whole host of terrible things that can happen.

And one other point. I know everyone always says in this debate, "I only drink in moderation and I never get drunk, so it's not wrong." EVERY FRIEND I've ever had who took that position has gotten drunk at some point in time. Do they get drunk every time? No, but when you decide to abstain from all alcohol, you avoid the risk altogether.

I'm not going to eat one too many bowls of ice cream and then go get in a car and kill someone. I've never heard anyone say that a Dr. Pepper took the edge off just enough that they felt at liberty to smoke their first joint/start flirting with someone other than their spouse. I've never heard anyone say, I didn't think a second hot dog would affect me that much, but now my best friend's dead because of that second hot dog.

So, then, why do it? Is it biblically "permissible"? Maybe, maybe not. But is it wise? That's my issue. That's why, although I will never say it is "wrong" to drink in moderation, I will emphatically say that it is very, very unwise, and living in the day of grace (and not under the law), many decisions have to be made not on whether something is "wrong" but whether it is wise. Unfortunately, though, for most of us, our understanding of "grace" is entirely comprised of the freedom part ("I can do anything not specifically prohibited") and misses the responsibility part (I Cor. 10:23-24--"Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial.").

[exo]

Originally Posted by plawren53202

Does that mean that every time you take one drink of alcohol, these things will happen? NO. But here's my point...I've recited over and over, in scientific and now personal terms, the terrible things drinking has caused.

Drinking didn't cause it. The person deciding to have too much to drink did.

Doesn't mean that drinking WILL cause them every time. But you've got your head buried in the sand if you can't admit that drinking, even if you intend to only in moderation, opens a huge door for a whole host of terrible things that can happen.

And so does driving a car for goodness sake. So does eating. So does a host of other things. Are you resolved to live as a hermit for the rest of your life because that is where your logic leads?

See, you think that drinking in and of itself caused these things, but you are incorrect. It is the person's decision to drink too much that did. Not to mention that the social problems that you mentioned could not possibly have been caused by the sole influence of a couple of drinks. A woman who cheats on her husband has FAR more issues with herself and her husband that just a drink. Alcohol isn't some magic toxin that will just suddenly make a happily married woman have an affair.

And one other point. I know everyone always says in this debate, "I only drink in moderation and I never get drunk, so it's not wrong." EVERY FRIEND I've ever had who took that position has gotten drunk at some point in time. Do they get drunk every time? No, but when you decide to abstain from all alcohol, you avoid the risk altogether.

Well, now you know one... actually two, wait no three, er make that four, in fact just go ahead and make it about a dozen. I have at least a dozen friends and family who only drink in moderation and have never once gotten drunk including myself. It's really not that hard.

I'm not going to eat one too many bowls of ice cream and then go get in a car and kill someone.

Considering that heart disease is the number one cause of death in the country I find it ironic and humorous that you would use ice cream as an example above. By eating too many bowls not only are you killing yourself, but you are also setting a bad example for fellow Christians around you.

I've never heard anyone say that a Dr. Pepper took the edge off just enough that they felt at liberty to smoke their first joint/start flirting with someone other than their spouse. I've never heard anyone say, I didn't think a second hot dog would affect me that much, but now my best friend's dead because of that second hot dog.

Why did he choke? The reality is that people make bad decisions regardless of the influence of alcohol.

So, then, why do it? Is it biblically "permissible"? Maybe, maybe not.

It is completely indefensible to say that drinking in moderation is not biblically permissible.

But is it wise?

Paul seemed to think so. So did Jesus. As well as the Proverbs. Are you going against the wisdom of Scripture?

That's my issue. That's why, although I will never say it is "wrong" to drink in moderation, I will emphatically say that it is very, very unwise, and living in the day of grace (and not under the law), many decisions have to be made not on whether something is "wrong" but whether it is wise. Unfortunately, though, for most of us, our understanding of "grace" is entirely comprised of the freedom part ("I can do anything not specifically prohibited") and misses the responsibility part (I Cor. 10:23-24--"Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial.").

So basically you are saying, "No one has the ability to drink responsibly. No one." Please. Is not one of the gifts of the Spirit self-control?

I'd also like to see the rest of your list in terms of what we can and cannot comsume and do because there are a plethora of things out there that we can do in moderation, but when taken to extremes are bad for us. This, IMO, makes your argument null and void from the get go.

[Nate]

Originally Posted by plawren53202

High school friend--tried marijuana for the first time (of many to follow) because, according to his own words, "that one beer loosened me up enough to get over my apprehensions about it"
Close acquaintance--after two beers, decided to go on a motorcycle ride with a man not her husband, led to an affair. Again, her own words: "I'm sure that I wouldn't have made the decision if I hadn't had a couple of drinks first, and none of this would have happened."

Ummm... those sound immeasureably more like excuses than causes... seriously.

[plawren53202]

So we've moved from saying there is no difference in the judgment-clouding effects of Jack Daniels and rocky road ice cream, to now: "I am so all-discerning that I know what was really going on in your friends' lives, even though I'm sitting hundreds of miles away staring at a computer screen." To quote, "seriously."

As I said before, this is why I absolutely HATE this debate. The only reason I jumped in in the first place is because this thread was taking a turn toward bashing Baptists for taking a stand against alcohol consumption. Wish I'd stayed out.

[Nate]

And the "only reason" we are arguing with you is that Baptists are moving towards forbidding something on semi-spiritual grounds which the Bible clearly does not forbid, and even recommends in some instances.

You keep telling us that we're ignoring obvious scientific facts. You're ignoring the fact, however, that Jesus' first miracle was to give wine to people that, presumably, had already drank considerably.

[exo]

Originally Posted by plawren53202

So we've moved from saying there is no difference in the judgment-clouding effects of Jack Daniels and rocky road ice cream, to now: "I am so all-discerning that I know what was really going on in your friends' lives, even though I'm sitting hundreds of miles away staring at a computer screen." To quote, "seriously."

It's basic psychology. Seriously. Remember it's not the Jack Daniels that made them do it, it's their decision to drink too much Jack Daniels. IMO, if you are clouding your judgement with alcohol, then you've had too much to drink.

As I said before, this is why I absolutely HATE this debate. The only reason I jumped in in the first place is because this thread was taking a turn toward bashing Baptists for taking a stand against alcohol consumption. Wish I'd stayed out.

Why do you hate it? Do you hate it because it's indefensible to say that drinking in moderation is unwise or wrong?

I understand your passion in wanting people to not drink too much. That certainly is commendable... I hate drunk drivers and alcoholics just as much as you and would be there by your side. But, on the other hand, I am equally passionate about not making up rules and laws that just don't exist. It's how the Pharisees spiraled down into their pit of sin. It leads us down the path to a false Gospel.

[bobthecockroach]

Originally Posted by plawren53202

Does that mean that every time you take one drink of alcohol, these things will happen? NO. But here's my point...I've recited over and over, in scientific and now personal terms, the terrible things drinking has caused. Doesn't mean that drinking WILL cause them every time. But you've got your head buried in the sand if you can't admit that drinking, even if you intend to only in moderation, opens a huge door for a whole host of terrible things that can happen.

I disagree. I think not recognizing weakness and stupidity open the door to a host of terrible things. Consider the marijuana thing. Would someone decide to try marijuana after drinking if they hadn't already considered trying it? I seriously doubt it. If you're not interested in trying marijuana before drinking, it is very unlikely that moderate drinking will make you interested in trying it.

And one other point. I know everyone always says in this debate, "I only drink in moderation and I never get drunk, so it's not wrong." EVERY FRIEND I've ever had who took that position has gotten drunk at some point in time. Do they get drunk every time? No, but when you decide to abstain from all alcohol, you avoid the risk altogether.

I have never gotten drunk. I do not ever intend to get drunk. When and where did your friends get drunk? While sitting around at home watching TV? I think not. That's where I drink. Responsible drinking involves a lot more than how much you drink. Drinking two beers at a wild party is a lot different than drinking two beers at home watching a football game. No one's just gonna sit on their couch drinking until they get drunk and go smoke dope without there being outside factors influencing their decisions. The alcohol is not the cause.

As for your last statement, it's just wrong. I find it VERY hard to imagine you do not know anyone who tried alcohol for the first time and got drunk on the same night. When you decide to abstain from alcohol, you can still mess up and try a drink and mess up and get drunk. Plenty of people who have signed True Love Waits cards have had premarital sex. Signing a metaphorical alcohol abstinence card does not make you immune to temptations.

I'm not going to eat one too many bowls of ice cream and then go get in a car and kill someone. I've never heard anyone say that a Dr. Pepper took the edge off just enough that they felt at liberty to smoke their first joint/start flirting with someone other than their spouse. I've never heard anyone say, I didn't think a second hot dog would affect me that much, but now my best friend's dead because of that second hot dog.

But is alcohol the cause? There are absolutely times when I drink coffee to get a certain feeling or what not, so it's not just alcohol. For example, when I'm tired but need to study, I drink coffee. Is it solely the coffee that energizes me, though? I think not. It's the fact that I'm drinking it for the purpose of waking up to study. I also drink coffee at night all the time just because I like the taste. I never get a significant boost of energy in these times. The mind can have a huge effect on our behavior. I've already mentioned a friend who got his friend drunk on a NON-ALCOHOLIC beverage because they thought it was alcohol.

Alcohol is used as an excuse for all sorts of stupid behavior, yes, but I do not think it is often the cause. If it's wrong to say "the devil made me do it" why is it ok to say "alcohol made me do it?"

So, then, why do it? Is it biblically "permissible"? Maybe, maybe not. But is it wise? That's my issue. That's why, although I will never say it is "wrong" to drink in moderation, I will emphatically say that it is very, very unwise, and living in the day of grace (and not under the law), many decisions have to be made not on whether something is "wrong" but whether it is wise. Unfortunately, though, for most of us, our understanding of "grace" is entirely comprised of the freedom part ("I can do anything not specifically prohibited") and misses the responsibility part (I Cor. 10:23-24--"Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial.").

To me, such extremism is unwise and unbeneficial. Extremists of various kinds have done every bit as much damage as alcohol, so I recommend you stop being such an extremist.

You can't seriously believe that my sitting around watching TV and drinking alcohol is going to make me try marijuana or go out and do something stupid (when I have absolutely no intentions whatsoever to do so).

Yes, I may do something stupid if I go drink 2 or 3 drinks at a wild party, but that's a different issue altogether. Responsible drinking is just as much about situation as it is about quantity.