[plawren53202]

Please explain to me how demonstrable scientific evidence about the effects of drinking alcohol, and how it clouds your judgment and senses, is "garbage."

When we're supposed to be under the 100% control and guidance of the Holy Spirit, anything that interferes with our ability to hear the Holy Spirit seems incredibly relevant to whether or not something is "wrong."

[Tony]

Originally Posted by plawren53202

Show me a scientific study demonstrating that ice cream, caffiene or anything else you've mentioned causes a measurable reduction in sensory, judgment abilities. The data is there for alcohol; it's not for these other things.

This is why I HATE HATE HATE this discussion. Every time, the pro-alcohol crowd always end up in this hyper-ridiculous "yeah, but ice cream makes you relaxed", "yeah, but you can't say your Dr. Pepper glorifies God," "yeah, but how does eating peanut butter point others to God", yeah but... yeah but... stuff.

Here's the bottom line. I can give you numerous Bible verses warning about alcohol. I can give you scientific studies proving it clouds your judgment. I can give you, literally, a hundred examples of people I know personally who got into bad, bad situations and alcohol (many/most times, only in "moderation") was a central part of their story. And I can point to MANY of my friends who grew up in church, and when they got to college, they made the "show me where the Bible says drinking in moderation is wrong" argument on their path out of church and away from any relationship with God, permanently.

As a lawyer, that's the evidence on my side. Inevitably, the best the alcohol advocates can do is "yeah but peanut butter, yeah but Dr. Pepper" kind of thing. Can I conclusively "prove" that drinking is "wrong?" Maybe not, but given the heavy weight of evidence on one side and the relatively few, weak, hyper-technical arguments on the other, I can make a pretty strong case that it's not in the best interests of a Christian's relationship with God to do it.

What do you do with the scientific evidence that states that adults who have 1 or 2 drinks a day reduce their risk of heart disease?

But that's beside the point. You can't give a biblical argument for prohibition. Period. And that's the problem. And if the Bible is authoritative, you'd think that it would have made a flat-out declaration against alcohol.

But it doesn't. Instead, it gives warnings against it's abuse. It also warns against the abuse of money. And the abuse of authority.

I'm sure you're a fine lawyer. I'm also sure you're a fine brother in Christ. But the standard in this court is the Bible, and your arguments are extrabiblical.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by USGold

whats that mean , did I read any--yes I read many of the posts to the thread---the discussion related to wether or not drinking is ok (in moderation of course) it's not my problem that the thread changed from it's beginning to where it's at now--I was merely returning to the original part of the thread that dealt with the question as a biblical question, not going to go into all the NTSB report garbage--if this reply gets removed by a MOD so be it.

Indeed. My point was simply that what you're saying has already been said. I didn't realize you were intentionally giving an argument that was already made. It isn't uncommon for people just to say things without actually reading what's already transpired.

[bobthecockroach]

Originally Posted by plawren53202

The National Highway Transportation Safety Board did a study a few years ago where they compiled the results of something like 40 scientific studies on the effect of alcohol consumption on the impairment of the senses. Their conclusion was that these 40 studies, taken together, showed that even light drinking (1-2 beers or glasses of wine) had a measurable, quantitative effect on the senses, reaction times, and the subject's judgment. The NHTSA study concluded that even 1-2 drinks led to a measurable reduction in the safety of the subject's driving.

Cell phones also reduce your driving safety.

Now, think about it. If that amount of alcohol has an effect on physical judgment capabilities, why would it not have an effect on moral judgment abilities? I am an attorney, and I have been at more work-related parties than I can count where I have seen people, after one drink, start making very friendly conversation with members of the opposite sex who are not their spouse--conversations I never see them have otherwise, minus the drink.

And the drink made them do it? I think not. The drink perhaps made them more apt to do something they wanted to do anyway. Getting on the internet makes you more apt to look at porn, should we throw out the internet?

Everyone I tell that to always wants to say, well, not me, not me, not me. But why do you drink an alcoholic drink over the non-alcoholic equivalent? The most common response is "to take the edge off" or "to relax a little." But what do you think it is in the alcohol that accomplishes that? The same sedative effect that reduces your judgment abilities.

It tastes good? Considering I only drink at home while sitting around playing games with my family or watching TV, I don't think I'm apt to have many problems due to the influence of alcohol.

I come from a family with a number of pastors, every one of whom has sat countless times and listened to the tearful confessions of marriages falling apart. And every one of them would say that almost every time, the story involves alcohol. And not stories of people going out and getting smashed; but invariably, the alcohol is a component of the story.

$20 says there are just as many stories involving the washing machine or the dishwasher.

So does the Bible flat out prohibit it? No. But in these days where uncontaminated drink choices are plentiful, why would I choose to consume something that reduces my ability to make good judgments even a little?

Because that's not the reason for alcohol being allowed. Surely you realize that you are making quite a logical leap here. The Bible says that nothing is to be refused if it received with thanksgiving. That's the reason why alcohol is OK. That reason has not changed because of technology.

We all know, it's hard enough to stay pure in the world as it is. No need to do anything that compromises that ability. And given all this, I have yet to hear someone explain to me how something that reduces your ability to make good judgments brings you closer to Christ...a standard which, without question, is in the Bible.

But my consumption of alcohol DOESN'T compromise my ability to live pure. In fact, I think learning to moderately consume alcohol likely makes one much less likely to get drunk. People who start drinking because they want to get drunk are much more likely to do so than people who drink because they like the taste and just want to relax with a drink at home.

Alcohol is not a big issue. We make it into so much of a moral scapegoat. We blame things on alcohol that are just a matter of people being stupid and irresponsible. Other countries have alcohol VENDING MACHINES and don't have the problems we do here. It's because people learn not to be afraid of alcohol but to enjoy it responsibility. Making such a big deal about alcohol does nothing to curb its misuse. Demonizing alcohol and claiming it has more influence than it does is simply wrong. The truth about alcohol is simple: it's good stuff, God doesn't disapprove of it, and it can be enjoyed responsibly. That's all there is to it. There's no more discussing needing done. It truly is the same as with caffeine. It's good stuff; God doesn't disapprove of it, and it can be used responsibly. Caffeine can also be used irresponsibly and can also impair your judgment. Tiredness probably causes a lot more accidents than drunkenness. Poor communication probably breaks up a lot more marriages. Why don't we demonize those things like we do alcohol? Because it's just not as fun to do. Abstaining from alcohol is relatively easy and lets us feel morally superior. I'm sorry, but that's the only reason I can see for the American Christian (and even secular for that matter) attitude toward alcohol. Alcohol is not viewed as just another consumable product as it should be. It's viewed like some strange mysterious wonder drug that turns perfectly ordinary people into raving lunatics, and that's just not the case.

[Nate]

Have those arguing against alcohol in here ever drank?

[Nate]

Originally Posted by plawren53202

Here's the bottom line. I can give you numerous Bible verses warning about alcohol. I can give you scientific studies proving it clouds your judgment. I can give you, literally, a hundred examples of people I know personally who got into bad, bad situations and alcohol (many/most times, only in "moderation") was a central part of their story. And I can point to MANY of my friends who grew up in church, and when they got to college, they made the "show me where the Bible says drinking in moderation is wrong" argument on their path out of church and away from any relationship with God, permanently.

And I can show you, just in my immediate family (including g/f), 5 people who drink responsibly and maintain relationships with God and with others. Certainly we're not the only ones in the world like that.

[Boy Genius]

To plawren53202:
You seem to be saying that we as sinful, depraved individuals cannot do now what Christ, the perfect son of God did (e.g. drink alcohol/wine). Even considering your bacterial contamination argument, you are still saying that we would be sinning when Christ was not. A sin is a sin. Christ was sinless. Just because a couple of millenia have gone by and we now have safe drinking water does not mean that something non-sinful in Christ's time would suddenly become sinful for us.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by Boy Genius

To plawren53202:
You seem to be saying that we as sinful, depraved individuals cannot do now what Christ, the perfect son of God did (e.g. drink alcohol/wine). Even considering your bacterial contamination argument, you are still saying that we would be sinning when Christ was not. A sin is a sin. Christ was sinless. Just because a couple of millenia have gone by and we now have safe drinking water does not mean that something non-sinful in Christ's time would suddenly become sinful for us.

Maybe I missed it in his argument, but I don't think he once said that drinking was a sin, just that it can lead to alot of problems.

[Boy Genius]

Originally Posted by thesteve

Maybe I missed it in his argument, but I don't think he once said that drinking was a sin, just that it can lead to alot of problems.

Looking back, you're right. Sorry about that.

Still, the basis of my question/argument stands: are you [plawren53202] saying that it is okay for the flawless, sinless, perfect Christ to do something (in this case, drink wine) when it would somehow be wrong or bad for us as depraved humans to do?

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Originally Posted by plawren53202

Please explain to me how demonstrable scientific evidence about the effects of drinking alcohol, and how it clouds your judgment and senses, is "garbage."

When we're supposed to be under the 100% control and guidance of the Holy Spirit, anything that interferes with our ability to hear the Holy Spirit seems incredibly relevant to whether or not something is "wrong."

I disproved "demonstrable scientific evidence" many times when I was in college. It's a bunch of hog wash to say everyone's judgement is clouded by drinking a beer, a glass of wine, or a strong drink.

There are people for whom this is true, and they should avoid alcohol entirely. I won't disagree with that, but to say that everyone's judgement is clouded by having a drink is wrong.

[tlj009]

The alcohol that Jesus drank was very minimal. In that day you had to sit there and drink most of the day before you got drunk on the usual wine. Today it takes 20 minutes. I am sure that everyone here can hold their liquor and never get drunk, but what about the people that look up to you. Do they have as strong of a will as you do? If you tell your kids they can drink but don't get drunk and they start college where everyone is drinking, I can estimate at least 90% of kids with that teaching will be getting drunk. If you try to scold them about, I will bet that the word hypocrite comes up. If your only arguement is that the bible doesn't explicitly prohibit drinking then try the following verse in relation to our society today:

Romans 14[21] It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

[Tony]

Originally Posted by tlj009

The alcohol that Jesus drank was very minimal. In that day you had to sit there and drink most of the day before you got drunk on the usual wine. Today it takes 20 minutes. I am sure that everyone here can hold their liquor and never get drunk, but what about the people that look up to you. Do they have as strong of a will as you do? If you tell your kids they can drink but don't get drunk and they start college where everyone is drinking, I can estimate at least 90% of kids with that teaching will be getting drunk. If you try to scold them about, I will bet that the word hypocrite comes up. If your only arguement is that the bible doesn't explicitly prohibit drinking then try the following verse in relation to our society today:

Romans 14[21] It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

That flies in the face of all the biblical warnings against getting drunk. Do you have any sources to back up your claim as to the alcohol content?

Gosh, this feels like my days on the Theology forum...

[tlj009]

http://logosresourcepages.org/Believers/alcohol.htm

That website was the first one to come up. You can look it up yourself. Alcohol wasn't distilled back then like it is today. Today we distill it for the purpose of making it stronger. Back then it was just a drink.

QUOTE][/QUOTE]That flies in the face of all the biblical warnings against getting drunk. Do you have any sources to back up your claim as to the alcohol content?

Nothing I have said flies in the face of biblical warnings. People actually did lie around drinking all day back then and did get drunk. It just took a lot longer.

[Demon_Hunter]

Originally Posted by tlj009

Romans 14[21] It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

I could use that verse to prohibit all kinds of things that arent sins to do, or to consume. Lets get some real scriptural evidence for prohibition of drinking.

[Tony]

Originally Posted by tlj009

http://logosresourcepages.org/Believers/alcohol.htm

That website was the first one to come up. You can look it up yourself. Alcohol wasn't distilled back then like it is today. Today we distill it for the purpose of making it stronger. Back then it was just a drink.

Nothing I have said flies in the face of biblical warnings. People actually did lie around drinking all day back then and did get drunk. It just took a lot longer.

Okay, where did he get his sources? I simply don't buy the "wine wasn't as strong back then" argument. It contradicts scripture. It also contradicts reality. Do you really think there was no fresh water prior to chlorine?