Alcohol Consumption? (formerly "Baptists and Drinking")

plawren53202 · 06-23-2006, 12:04 PM

Very, very reluctant to weigh in on this, but alas, here goes...

The National Highway Transportation Safety Board did a study a few years ago where they compiled the results of something like 40 scientific studies on the effect of alcohol consumption on the impairment of the senses. Their conclusion was that these 40 studies, taken together, showed that even light drinking (1-2 beers or glasses of wine) had a measurable, quantitative effect on the senses, reaction times, and the subject's judgment. The NHTSA study concluded that even 1-2 drinks led to a measurable reduction in the safety of the subject's driving.

Now, think about it. If that amount of alcohol has an effect on physical judgment capabilities, why would it not have an effect on moral judgment abilities? I am an attorney, and I have been at more work-related parties than I can count where I have seen people, after one drink, start making very friendly conversation with members of the opposite sex who are not their spouse--conversations I never see them have otherwise, minus the drink.

Everyone I tell that to always wants to say, well, not me, not me, not me. But why do you drink an alcoholic drink over the non-alcoholic equivalent? The most common response is "to take the edge off" or "to relax a little." But what do you think it is in the alcohol that accomplishes that? The same sedative effect that reduces your judgment abilities.

I come from a family with a number of pastors, every one of whom has sat countless times and listened to the tearful confessions of marriages falling apart. And every one of them would say that almost every time, the story involves alcohol. And not stories of people going out and getting smashed; but invariably, the alcohol is a component of the story.

I'm not one who sticks his head in the sand and pretends that you can find something in the Bible to "prove" conclusively that you shouldn't drink alcohol. But, keep in mind, in Bible times, wine was the only drink guaranteed to be free from bacteria contamination; water, juice, milk, etc. were contaminated. That's why, when talking about Timothy's stomach ailment, Paul tells him, you've got to stop drinking water only and drink a little wine.

So does the Bible flat out prohibit it? No. But in these days where uncontaminated drink choices are plentiful, why would I choose to consume something that reduces my ability to make good judgments even a little? We all know, it's hard enough to stay pure in the world as it is. No need to do anything that compromises that ability. And given all this, I have yet to hear someone explain to me how something that reduces your ability to make good judgments brings you closer to Christ...a standard which, without question, is in the Bible.

Tony · 06-23-2006, 01:00 PM

Quote:

I'm not one who sticks his head in the sand and pretends that you can find something in the Bible to "prove" conclusively that you shouldn't drink alcohol. But, keep in mind, in Bible times, wine was the only drink guaranteed to be free from bacteria contamination; water, juice, milk, etc. were contaminated. That's why, when talking about Timothy's stomach ailment, Paul tells him, you've got to stop drinking water only and drink a little wine.

The Bible has lots to say about wine & strong drink, with plenty of warnings, I'm not sure that levels of contamination have much to do with it.

Here's a great online essay on the subject.

plawren53202 · 06-23-2006, 01:32 PM

I agree with you wholeheartedly that the Bible has plenty to say about the dangers of alcohol. And in modern times, that to me is enough to stay away from it.

However, when I'm discussing this subject I inevitably hear the "show me in the Bible where it says 'thou shalt not drink alcohol.'" I wanted to cut that remark off at the pass. The Bible contains many warnings about alcohol because of the contamination issue: because alcohol was the only drink guaranteed to be free from bacterial contamination, it was a necessary part of biblical life. The many warnings were necessary because people did drink alcoholic beverages on a daily basis.

My point was, today, when there is no contamination issue, when you look at the measurable effects of alcohol, and, like you said, you look at the biblical warnings, why do it?

Boy Genius · 06-23-2006, 01:47 PM

Quote:

The Bible contains many warnings about alcohol because of the contamination issue: because alcohol was the only drink guaranteed to be free from bacterial contamination, it was a necessary part of biblical life. The many warnings were necessary because people did drink alcoholic beverages on a daily basis.

People in "Bible times" knew about bacterial contamination?

**thesteve** · 06-23-2006, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boy Genius

People in "Bible times" knew about bacterial contamination?

while they probably didn't know why, i'm sure they knew things like, "if i drink this i might get sick, but if i drink that it'll be ok"

plawren53202 · 06-23-2006, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thesteve

while they probably didn't know why, i'm sure they knew things like, "if i drink this i might get sick, but if i drink that it'll be ok"

+5 to what thesteve said. Of course people in Bible times didn't know that it was bacteria that was making them sick; but I'm sure they could figure out, "I drank from that bucket of water and now I've had the trots for a week." Paul obviously knew that something related to drink was making Timothy sick when he said, stop drinking water only and drink a little wine for your stomach.

Demon_Hunter · 06-23-2006, 02:33 PM

How does it help glorify the lord when you pop open that dr.pepper, or down that cup of coffee in the morning? How does it glorify the lord to drink that extra glass of water or milk just before bed?

If it doesnt in someway glorify God to do it, then we must abstain, correct?

I had someone use that argument about, "Can you honestly glorify the Lord when you pop open that beer?".

But when compared to all the things we do in our daily lives just out of habit, how can we even use that argument?

plawren53202 · 06-23-2006, 02:55 PM

Gosh, if I've heard this one once, I've heard it a million times...

The difference is, none of the things you mentioned clouds your judgment as I've described above. I can't necessarily make the argument that drinking a glass of milk before bed brings me closer to God, but you can't make an argument that it pushes you further away from Him, either.

In contrast, as I said above, because alcohol clouds your judgment in scientifically quantifiable ways, I can make a strong argument that drinking alcohol pushes you further away from God. My question is, can anyone make the argument that drinking alcohol and thereby clouding your judgment brings you closer to Him? I haven't heard that argument yet.

Tony · 06-23-2006, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plawren53202

Gosh, if I've heard this one once, I've heard it a million times...

The difference is, none of the things you mentioned clouds your judgment as I've described above. I can't necessarily make the argument that drinking a glass of milk before bed brings me closer to God, but you can't make an argument that it pushes you further away from Him, either.

In contrast, as I said above, because alcohol clouds your judgment in scientifically quantifiable ways, I can make a strong argument that drinking alcohol pushes you further away from God. My question is, can anyone make the argument that drinking alcohol and thereby clouding your judgment brings you closer to Him? I haven't heard that argument yet.

I don't think you have successfully shown that any substance that relaxes you is equivilent to impairment in judgement, anymore than drinking a pot of coffee will make you more focused on God.

Abuse? Yes, it's wrong. Use? No, it does not hinder one's judgement from the first sip.

plawren53202 · 06-23-2006, 03:18 PM

I'll have to find the NHTSB link. The NHTSB study concluded that the overwhelming consensus of scientific studies showed that only 1-2 drinks caused a measurable, quantifiable reduction in sensory perception and judgment abilities.

This argument doesn't just pertain to alcohol. When I was dating, I found that my (like most people) judgment and willpower were not as sharp late at night. Therefore, it was a wise thing to not be with my then-girlfriend late at night. Does the Bible say "don't date late at night?" No; but I couldn't justify how being in a situation where my judgment was not as sharp was in any way beneficial to my relationship with God.

Why do something that is known to reduce your judgment capabilities? It's hard enough to avoid sin at our best...why do anything that makes it even slightly easier to make a bad decision? That's the answer I'm still waiting on.

Tony · 06-23-2006, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plawren53202

I'll have to find the NHTSB link. The NHTSB study concluded that the overwhelming consensus of scientific studies showed that only 1-2 drinks caused a measurable, quantifiable reduction in sensory perception and judgment abilities.

This argument doesn't just pertain to alcohol. When I was dating, I found that my (like most people) judgment and willpower were not as sharp late at night. Therefore, it was a wise thing to not be with my then-girlfriend late at night. Does the Bible say "don't date late at night?" No; but I couldn't justify how being in a situation where my judgment was not as sharp was in any way beneficial to my relationship with God.

Why do something that is known to reduce your judgment capabilities? It's hard enough to avoid sin at our best...why do anything that makes it even slightly easier to make a bad decision? That's the answer I'm still waiting on.

Because the same could be said for caffeine. Stimilants lead to aggressive behavior.

Ice cream produces a measurable, quantifiable relaxation affect . Is that a reduction in sensory perception and judgement as well? Should dating couples not eat ice cream - especially late at night - because they'll not be able to control their sexual urges?

Sorry to play the sarcastic card here. It just seems that the alcohol discussion becomes a bit narrow, and goes cultural instead of biblical when searching for a justification for prohibition.

All-you-can-eat buffet restaurants: now there's something to ban.

plawren53202 · 06-23-2006, 03:51 PM

Show me a scientific study demonstrating that ice cream, caffiene or anything else you've mentioned causes a measurable reduction in sensory, judgment abilities. The data is there for alcohol; it's not for these other things.

This is why I HATE HATE HATE this discussion. Every time, the pro-alcohol crowd always end up in this hyper-ridiculous "yeah, but ice cream makes you relaxed", "yeah, but you can't say your Dr. Pepper glorifies God," "yeah, but how does eating peanut butter point others to God", yeah but... yeah but... stuff.

Here's the bottom line. I can give you numerous Bible verses warning about alcohol. I can give you scientific studies proving it clouds your judgment. I can give you, literally, a hundred examples of people I know personally who got into bad, bad situations and alcohol (many/most times, only in "moderation") was a central part of their story. And I can point to MANY of my friends who grew up in church, and when they got to college, they made the "show me where the Bible says drinking in moderation is wrong" argument on their path out of church and away from any relationship with God, permanently.

As a lawyer, that's the evidence on my side. Inevitably, the best the alcohol advocates can do is "yeah but peanut butter, yeah but Dr. Pepper" kind of thing. Can I conclusively "prove" that drinking is "wrong?" Maybe not, but given the heavy weight of evidence on one side and the relatively few, weak, hyper-technical arguments on the other, I can make a pretty strong case that it's not in the best interests of a Christian's relationship with God to do it.

USGold · 06-23-2006, 03:52 PM

Can we agree that Christ was sinless? Didn't our Lord not only drink wine but also make it from water for the wedding party?

**thesteve** · 06-23-2006, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USGold

Can we agree that Christ was sinless? Didn't our Lord not only drink wine but also make it from water for the wedding party?

did you read any of the thread?

USGold · 06-23-2006, 04:07 PM

whats that mean , did I read any--yes I read many of the posts to the thread---the discussion related to wether or not drinking is ok (in moderation of course) it's not my problem that the thread changed from it's beginning to where it's at now--I was merely returning to the original part of the thread that dealt with the question as a biblical question, not going to go into all the NTSB report garbage--if this reply gets removed by a MOD so be it.