[Yojimbo]

The WaPo has an indepth story of how the Patriot Act has invaded normal citizens' lives. I'll have to say that I don't know much indepth about the Act, but this article is extremely disturbing. It's long, so I'll just quote the most interesting parts...although all of it is very interesting.

The Connecticut case affords a rare glimpse of an exponentially growing practice of domestic surveillance under the USA Patriot Act, which marked its fourth anniversary on Oct. 26. "National security letters," created in the 1970s for espionage and terrorism investigations, originated as narrow exceptions in consumer privacy law, enabling the FBI to review in secret the customer records of suspected foreign agents. The Patriot Act, and Bush administration guidelines for its use, transformed those letters by permitting clandestine scrutiny of U.S. residents and visitors who are not alleged to be terrorists or spies.

The FBI now issues more than 30,000 national security letters a year, according to government sources, a hundredfold increase over historic norms. The letters -- one of which can be used to sweep up the records of many people -- are extending the bureau's reach as never before into the telephone calls, correspondence and financial lives of ordinary Americans.

Issued by FBI field supervisors, national security letters do not need the imprimatur of a prosecutor, grand jury or judge. They receive no review after the fact by the Justice Department or Congress. The executive branch maintains only statistics, which are incomplete and confined to classified reports. The Bush administration defeated legislation and a lawsuit to require a public accounting, and has offered no example in which the use of a national security letter helped disrupt a terrorist plot.

The burgeoning use of national security letters coincides with an unannounced decision to deposit all the information they yield into government data banks -- and to share those private records widely, in the federal government and beyond. In late 2003, the Bush administration reversed a long-standing policy requiring agents to destroy their files on innocent American citizens, companies and residents when investigations closed. Late last month, President Bush signed Executive Order 13388, expanding access to those files for "state, local and tribal" governments and for "appropriate private sector entities," which are not defined.

Career investigators and Bush administration officials emphasized, in congressional testimony and interviews for this story, that national security letters are for hunting terrorists, not fishing through the private lives of the innocent. The distinction is not as clear in practice.

Under the old legal test, the FBI had to have "specific and articulable" reasons to believe the records it gathered in secret belonged to a terrorist or a spy. Now the bureau needs only to certify that the records are "sought for" or "relevant to" an investigation "to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities."

That standard enables investigators to look for conspirators by sifting the records of nearly anyone who crosses a suspect's path.

"If you have a list of, say, 20 telephone numbers that have come up . . . on a bad guy's telephone," said Valerie E. Caproni, the FBI's general counsel, "you want to find out who he's in contact with." Investigators will say, " 'Okay, phone company, give us subscriber information and toll records on these 20 telephone numbers,' and that can easily be 100."

So are there really 30,000 clandestine agents in the U.S.? Or is the FBI abusing just a tad their powers here?

On a side note, this is tangentally related to the torture debate. Just as these investigators net in thousands of people because they happen to be on the phone records of suspects, interrogators rope in people whose names are "confessed," so that the beating of one suspect turns into the torture of many.

[Than]

I take solace when I read stuff like this because eventually, the ludicrousness of these abuses is going to reverse in a storm of civil-liberty loving backlash and we'll be free. At least I keep telling myself that...

[Grasshopper359]

Originally Posted by Yojimbo

The WaPo has an indepth story of how the Patriot Act has invaded normal citizens' lives. I'll have to say that I don't know much indepth about the Act, but this article is extremely disturbing. It's long, so I'll just quote the most interesting parts...although all of it is very interesting.



So are there really 30,000 clandestine agents in the U.S.? Or is the FBI abusing just a tad their powers here?

On a side note, this is tangentally related to the torture debate. Just as these investigators net in thousands of people because they happen to be on the phone records of suspects, interrogators rope in people whose names are "confessed," so that the beating of one suspect turns into the torture of many.

If only George Orwell were alive today...

[jfahler03]

Originally Posted by Yojimbo

The WaPo has an indepth story of how the Patriot Act has invaded normal citizens' lives.

Originally Posted by WackyNeoCon

That's what the terrorists (and liberals!) want you to believe!!!

*ahem...*... I meant to say:

Yeah... I agree with you.

I'm taking a Political Thought course right now and I think the only one that would fully back the U.S. Patriot Act would be Niccolo Machiavelli himself - author of The Prince and father of giving us tips on how to let government fully control its domain (including citizen's lives). It's kind of sad to say that, isn't it?

Both Bush's seem quite Machiavellian to me. Maybe it's just because I'm a liberal loser though.

[Ryan Freeland]

There shouldn't only be a Patriot Act, but racial profiling as well. I want every person who looks like a terrorist checked. Also, people complain about us not treating detainees under the Geneva Convention... Just to let you know, these people are not POW's, but *terrorists.* The Geneva Convention does not apply to them.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by Building429_Boy

There shouldn't only be a Patriot Act, but racial profiling as well. I want every person who looks like a terrorist checked. Also, people complain about us not treating detainees under the Geneva Convention... Just to let you know, these people are not POW's, but *terrorists.* The Geneva Convention does not apply to them.

I hope this is a joke. Our country was founded on "terrorism" at the revolutionary war. "Terrorists" deserved the Geneva convention in the 40's when they were members of the french resistance.

Racial profiling is useless. Muslims are not all arabs, and Islam seems equated with terrorism. It is not. Guess what, Timothy McVeigh was a white guy, Kasynski (sp) was a white man. McVeigh would have have never been caught by racial profiling. The two most lethal terrorists (individuals) in our country's history would never have been caught.

This is the trading of liberty for a false pretense of safety. I will tell you how good airline security is. I accidently walked through LAX airport security checkpoints by accident with a loaded 25/22 clip for a ruger 10/22. I dumped the bullets in the bathroom trashcan when I panniced when the clip clattered to the bathroom floor. It was an accident on my part, but still... Somebody should have noticed.

[jfahler03]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

I accidently walked through LAX airport security checkpoints by accident with a loaded 25/22 clip for a ruger 10/22. I dumped the bullets in the bathroom trashcan when I panniced when the clip clattered to the bathroom floor. It was an accident on my part, but still... Somebody should have noticed.

Wow. Thankfully nobody noticed while at the same time I wish they would've. If you weren't white (I'm assuming you are) I wonder if that would be the case...

[Grasshopper359]

Originally Posted by Building429_Boy

There shouldn't only be a Patriot Act, but racial profiling as well. I want every person who looks like a terrorist checked. Also, people complain about us not treating detainees under the Geneva Convention... Just to let you know, these people are not POW's, but *terrorists.* The Geneva Convention does not apply to them.

Keep on rockin' in the Free World!

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by jfahler03

Wow. Thankfully nobody noticed while at the same time I wish they would've. If you weren't white (I'm assuming you are) I wonder if that would be the case...

probably... since then, Ive gotten on somebody's watch list or something... I can't go through an airport without a search. It is probably because my first name is apparently common among Iranians.

[adamwagg]

Bill is common? Hehe

You just gave us a clue about your real name. If I were really sad I could go through all your posts and get a profile of who you really are. It probably wouldnt tell us that much though plus I really couldnt be bothered!

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by adamwagg

Bill is common? Hehe

You just gave us a clue about your real name. If I were really sad I could go through all your posts and get a profile of who you really are. It probably wouldnt tell us that much though plus I really couldnt be bothered!

actually, I know a few ways to find my real identity on here. However, I don't really know the standing of my name in Iran, I have just heard from several Iranians thats why I seem to have so much trouble in air ports anymore.

[Grasshopper359]

...racial profiling

Now here's the problem: what does a terrorist look like? How about this:




Or like this:




Or like this, maybe:




Or this:




Or how about this:




This?




Does this guy look like the most notorious assasin in modern history? He's had five novels written and four movies made about him.




What about this guy? He's the leader of a terrorist group and has been arrested by the FBI.




Or this guy:




Would racial profiling spot this guy?




Or this guy?




Or him?




This guy's group has caused a fair bit of mayhem.




As has his:




And his:



No, sir, I don't think that racial profiling would be any more successful at snagging terrorists than the McCarthy Hearings were in finding Communists.

[adamwagg]

Hey Grasshopper!

Racial profiling wont work for those people. But I know something that will:

It is clear to me that all those peoples are ugly! We should just lock up the ugly people!

[Grasshopper359]

Originally Posted by adamwagg

Hey Grasshopper!

Racial profiling wont work for those people. But I know something that will:

It is clear to me that all those peoples are ugly! We should just lock up the ugly people!

Crap. That means that I'd be going to jail. And so would Britney Spears. Now, to be honest, I'd really like to see Britney head off to the clink. That would be great. That would make my day. But I also like my freedom. We have to come up with something else.

*snaps*

Got it. We'll lock up all the stupid politicians who are fuelling terrorism with bad foreign policy. And we'll make them watch Good Will Hunting three times a day, and read "Shake Hands With the Devil", "A Continent for the Taking" and "King Leopold's Ghost" once a week as part of their "re-education". In addition to this, they will be required to interview in person a coltan miner from the Democratic Republic of the Congo, a Chechnyean refugee, a Chinese political prisoner, a Mexican immigrant, and a Chilean farmer who survived Pinochet's rule, and write an 800-page biography on each, followed by an 800-page analysis each month on a major MSF or Red Cross international aid mission. And if John Ashcroft bursts into a round of "The Mighty Eagle Soars" I'll kick his arse. Personally. How's THAT for a Patriot Act? Ladies and Gentlemen, to education over mindless rhetoric.

[Insane Drummer]

Originally Posted by Building429_Boy

There shouldn't only be a Patriot Act, but racial profiling as well. I want every person who looks like a terrorist checked. Also, people complain about us not treating detainees under the Geneva Convention... Just to let you know, these people are not POW's, but *terrorists.* The Geneva Convention does not apply to them.

Let's see... Bush calls it a " Global War on Terror"... I think that makes any Terrorists detained POWs in my eyes.

I am not even going to comment on racial profiling. It would lead to post deletion.