[OneHope]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper359

Crap. That means that I'd be going to jail. And so would Britney Spears. Now, to be honest, I'd really like to see Britney head off to the clink. That would be great. That would make my day. But I also like my freedom. We have to come up with something else.

*snaps*

Got it. We'll lock up all the stupid politicians who are fuelling terrorism with bad foreign policy. And we'll make them watch Good Will Hunting three times a day, and read "Shake Hands With the Devil", "A Continent for the Taking" and "King Leopold's Ghost" once a week as part of their "re-education". In addition to this, they will be required to interview in person a coltan miner from the Democratic Republic of the Congo, a Chechnyean refugee, a Chinese political prisoner, a Mexican immigrant, and a Chilean farmer who survived Pinochet's rule, and write an 800-page biography on each, followed by an 800-page analysis each month on a major MSF or Red Cross international aid mission. And if John Ashcroft bursts into a round of "The Mighty Eagle Soars" I'll kick his arse. Personally. How's THAT for a Patriot Act? Ladies and Gentlemen, to education over mindless rhetoric.

I'd vote for that.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

This is the trading of liberty for a false pretense of safety. I will tell you how good airline security is. I accidently walked through LAX airport security checkpoints by accident with a loaded 25/22 clip for a ruger 10/22. I dumped the bullets in the bathroom trashcan when I panniced when the clip clattered to the bathroom floor. It was an accident on my part, but still... Somebody should have noticed.

i find this incredibly hard to believe. i can't even walk through airport security without taking my watch off, otherwise the metal detectors go off.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by Insane Drummer

Let's see... Bush calls it a " Global War on Terror"... I think that makes any Terrorists detained POWs in my eyes.

I had this same thought the other day.

[Kiss the Son]

Originally Posted by Bryan

i find this incredibly hard to believe. i can't even walk through airport security without taking my watch off, otherwise the metal detectors go off.

You are allowed to carry a handgun, under certain conditions. One is that is must be in your travel case (not carry-on). And you're not allowed to have it loaded. At least, that's how things went down back in April when I flew. Things might've changed.

[Grasshopper359]

i find this incredibly hard to believe. i can't even walk through airport security without taking my watch off, otherwise the metal detectors go off.

I don't find it very difficult to believe at all. Airport security can be extremely easy to beat if you understand how it's set up. You can get a loaded subcompact pistol (say, a Glock 27, Beretta 9000 or Springfield XD98) through security checkpoints quite easily if you know how to hide it properly and how to act. With a good knowledge of airport security and some creativity, the sky's the limit as to what you can get through without them nicking you. That Bill accidently walked through LAX with a magazine full of .22 rounds is very easy for me to believe. Now if they put more effort into actual security than they put into stupid legislation, then they may be able to catch actual criminals.

And if they didn't have such a poor foreign policy, then they wouldn't have much of a problem with international terrorism. I really don't see the US becoming a safer place because government agencies have been granted more power to listen in on your phone conversations and read your mail.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper359

I don't find it very difficult to believe at all. Airport security can be extremely easy to beat if you understand how it's set up. You can get a loaded subcompact pistol (say, a Glock 27, Beretta 9000 or Springfield XD98) through security checkpoints quite easily if you know how to hide it properly and how to act. With a good knowledge of airport security and some creativity, the sky's the limit as to what you can get through without them nicking you. That Bill accidently walked through LAX with a magazine full of .22 rounds is very easy for me to believe. Now if they put more effort into actual security than they put into stupid legislation, then they may be able to catch actual criminals.

These don't set off the 'Everyone walks through' metal detectors?

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by JerryLove

These don't set off the 'Everyone walks through' metal detectors?

No, they don't. I thought that was the primary reasons for Glock using a high density plastic instead of metal.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

No, they don't. I thought that was the primary reasons for Glock using a high density plastic instead of metal.

No.

The majority of the frame (note that the slide, barrel, and spring are still fully metal) is made of a polymer called "Nylon 6". This was used because it offers high strength, wear resistance, abrasion resistance, and good resiliency, good ductility and toughness. Fracture mechanics are excellent with defect ratios below 1. It offers long term performance at elevated and depressed temperatures. Chemically stable in a majority of environments, attacked directly by strong acids and bases (better than steel actually). UV exposure results in degradation over an extended period of time. 2-3% carbon black virtually eliminates UV degradation and Carbon-Black does not become readily absorbed in Nylons offering higly increased useful life spans. Loss of mechanical properties with 2% Carbon-Black is less than 0.05% on an elevated UV exposure test equivalent to approximately 100 years. Hyrdolytically attacked by water in excess of 120 degrees. Basically, no hot-tubbing with your Glock and you will be fine.

That said, I can assure you that every glock on the market will set-off your standard metal detector (my primary carry is a Glock 23). Considering that I have metal loops on my boots that set off the metal detectors, I'm highly dubious that the casings and bullets from a magazine full of rounds would not set one off, particularly the reasonably high-end units that are supposed to be at airports; though I suppose you could deliberately hide it under a belt-buckle or some other thing that a screener is supposed to have you remove but may not.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by JerryLove

No.

The majority of the frame (note that the slide, barrel, and spring are still fully metal) is made of a polymer called "Nylon 6". This was used because it offers high strength, wear resistance, abrasion resistance, and good resiliency, good ductility and toughness. Fracture mechanics are excellent with defect ratios below 1. It offers long term performance at elevated and depressed temperatures. Chemically stable in a majority of environments, attacked directly by strong acids and bases (better than steel actually). UV exposure results in degradation over an extended period of time. 2-3% carbon black virtually eliminates UV degradation and Carbon-Black does not become readily absorbed in Nylons offering higly increased useful life spans. Loss of mechanical properties with 2% Carbon-Black is less than 0.05% on an elevated UV exposure test equivalent to approximately 100 years. Hyrdolytically attacked by water in excess of 120 degrees. Basically, no hot-tubbing with your Glock and you will be fine.

That said, I can assure you that every glock on the market will set-off your standard metal detector (my primary carry is a Glock 23). Considering that I have metal loops on my boots that set off the metal detectors, I'm highly dubious that the casings and bullets from a magazine full of rounds would not set one off, particularly the reasonably high-end units that are supposed to be at airports; though I suppose you could deliberately hide it under a belt-buckle or some other thing that a screener is supposed to have you remove but may not.

As I understand it... the best conclusion I came to is,

1) Lead and brass take more than steel to set off a metal detector.
2) The fact that it was in my lower fatigue pockets probably gave it a less dense cross section.
3) It could have been a lucky (for me) malfunction.
4) At Ohare I saw some very inept screeners this year...

All I really know is I ended up in the LAX terminal bathroom, and when I dropped my pants the clip popped out and I panniced. I quite clearly remember carefully emptying the clip trying to avoid being seen, into a bathroom paper towel trash can, while trying to keep what I was doing unseen. It is one of the scaredest times of my life, because once I knew, I was acting suspicious, because I was scared, and I knew I was acting suspicious.

I have it on good authority that some of the glocks will go through metal detectors quite well. I have not, and cannot forsee myself trying this in any set of circumstances I can imagine. But I have heard it is possible with at least 2 models of glocks.

[JerryLove]

I have it on good authority that some of the glocks will go through metal detectors quite well. I have not, and cannot forsee myself trying this in any set of circumstances I can imagine. But I have heard it is possible with at least 2 models of glocks.

Which models? I've got access to both metal detectors and most variaties of Glock. Even on the smallest models (the 9mm subcompacts), there is substantially moer steel than in a modest knife, and an order of magnitude more than in my shoes.

http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...nt072700a.html
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3980
http://www.capmag.com/articlePrint.asp?ID=3980
http://remtek.com/arms/glock/model/9/19/

"Contrary to early reports, GLOCKS certainly do set off metal detectors and can indeed be detected by X-ray machines, due to their heavy metal barrels and slides." - http://www.answers.com/topic/glock

Contrary to early reports, GLOCKs certainly do set off metal detectors and can indeed be detected by X-ray machines, due to their metal barrels and slides. The claim that they could not was first made in an article published in the Washington Post on January 13, 1985, entitled, "Quaddafi Buying Austrian Plastic Pistol." In this article, vocal gun control advocate Jack Anderson made the allegations, which were then reported without fact-checking by the Associated Press and further reported by many United States television news stations and newspapers. It has since become an urban legend that to this day continues to appear in news reports and movies, and has even been a topic of debate in the United States Congress. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLOCK

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by JerryLove

Which models? I've got access to both metal detectors and most variaties of Glock. Even on the smallest models (the 9mm subcompacts), there is substantially moer steel than in a modest knife, and an order of magnitude more than in my shoes.

http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...nt072700a.html
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3980
http://www.capmag.com/articlePrint.asp?ID=3980
http://remtek.com/arms/glock/model/9/19/

"Contrary to early reports, GLOCKS certainly do set off metal detectors and can indeed be detected by X-ray machines, due to their heavy metal barrels and slides." - http://www.answers.com/topic/glock

Contrary to early reports, GLOCKs certainly do set off metal detectors and can indeed be detected by X-ray machines, due to their metal barrels and slides. The claim that they could not was first made in an article published in the Washington Post on January 13, 1985, entitled, "Quaddafi Buying Austrian Plastic Pistol." In this article, vocal gun control advocate Jack Anderson made the allegations, which were then reported without fact-checking by the Associated Press and further reported by many United States television news stations and newspapers. It has since become an urban legend that to this day continues to appear in news reports and movies, and has even been a topic of debate in the United States Congress. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLOCK

I heard it from a Sheriff on the LAPD. I figured he was speaking correctly. I'll try to get hold of him, but it was a model that supposedly isn't very common. He had one and it was the lightest gun I have ever held, but the number escapes me. It could be an urban legend, though I certainly found it plausible as it was lighter than my knife. I was thinking it was a model with a barrel that was non-metal, not legal in the us, and not long term serviceable that was produced a while back. The one that was supposedly capable was siezed from a drug raid, along with teflon (aka cop-killers) bullets.

Now, the officer could have been mistaken and that was just one light gun, but knowing how to make a variety of zip guns and other items, the thought of retrofitting a glock with a basically disposable composite barrel seems likely to me for criminal usage. The technology is there.

[Grasshopper359]

Originally Posted by Jerry

These don't set off the 'Everyone walks through' metal detectors?

Yes, by themselves, they do. But with some clever stashing, they can be carried through without setting off the metal detector.

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

No, they don't. I thought that was the primary reasons for Glock using a high density plastic instead of metal.

The Glock is 87-93% (depending on the model) metal by weight (the barrel, slide, action and springs are all steel - it's just the frame that's plastic), and it will set off a metal detector like any other pistol. But there are several ways to carry a pistol through a metal detector without setting it off. And that's about all I'll say. Heck, if you're creative enough, you can get anything you want through airport security. When I flew back from Paris last fall, I realised that I could have taken an Uzi through security in my backpack. ADP security searched through it, but not very thoroughly. And this was fifteen minutes after a passanger left their baggage unattended, and the GIGN EOD section came in and blew it up, in an airport where the corridors were being patrolled by the Army. I had a pair of scissors in my first aid kit (I forgot that they were there - when I left home, I just grabbed my first aid kit and threw it into my backpack). In Toronto when I flew out, they made me take my belt buckle off, but my backpack went though the x-ray machine with scissors in it, and nobody stopped to ask any questions. When I flew back to Ontario for my brother's wedding, they made me take my beret, boots and tunic off (I was wearing my service-dress uniform), but they just opened up my carrying case for my computer, looked at it, then zipped it back up and nodded. I didn't have to turn it on or anything. For all they knew, I could have gutted my computer and filled it with magnesium powder and thermite and been up to all kinds of nastiness. That was in Quebec City. I see things with security that worry me every time I fly - and that was eight times last year - four of which were international flights.

Zip guns are also pretty easy to get through security by taking them apart and hiding the pieces in carry-on luggage, then carrying the ammunition on your person. Knives are dead easy, and don't even require any special measures as long as they're not made of a magnetic substance. Brass, nickel, aluminium - all are readily available, and easy to work into deadly weapons, as are many high-density thermoplastics, such as polyester resin and DuPont kevlar, which are readily available in the marine industry. Explosive compounds like ammonia phosphate mixed with ASA extracted from Aspirin to bind it can be pumped into a 10ml toothpaste tube and used to blow cockpit door locks open, and then you have free reign to do whatever you want.

These are just things that I noticed while travelling - what worries me is that there are people who sit around thinking up ways of beating security in order to make their point. And I'm not thinking of Middle-Eastern terrorists, I'm thinking of the home-grown brand - the anarchists, the paramilitaries, the right-wing Liberty movement - the ones who could dress like you or me and not raise any suspision, while anyone with olive skin or an even remotely Arab-sounding name automatically gets the suspisous twice-over. Now what I don't understand is why the Republicans would go and pass this stupid USA Patriot Act, right on the heels of having made it easier to acquire assault-type rifles, by reversing Clinton's ban on importing them. They talk about national security, but I can go to a gun show and buy myself a Galil ARM with the full-auto conversion kit (yep - I saw it in Wisconsin in 2003) for $600. AR-15 A2 with the automatic sear and unmachined bolt carrier - $700. A friend of mine was at a gun show in Tulsa, OK and saw a guy selling an SKS with a detatchable GP-25 40mm grenade launcher. Oh, no, sorry, it was a "flare cannon". I'd like to know why, if he's so interested in national security and safer streets, Bush doesn't take a firmer stance on assault weapons. Oh yeah, because then the Republicans would lose the NRA's campaign contributions.

[JerryLove]

Oh, I have no doubt things can be deliberately snuck.

This reminds me of why my response has usually been "arm everyone". Imagine if every passenger was issued a tazer.

[Than]

Hahaha the stewards/stewardesses would have to be impeccably polite all of the time, that's for damn sure.

[PaidInFull]

Originally Posted by JerryLove

Imagine if every passenger was issued a tazer.

For some reason I laughed when I read this....