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Unread 10-19-2005, 03:26 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qingu
There's not much merit to the skeptic's side? You mean the side that claims the prophecy is false because the above city, with a population of 80,000 people, is not destroyed and is not a "bare rock"?

Would you care to debate the existence of this city, BurntHombre?

This is not even to mention that the Bible is wrong about history and Neb did not, in fact, succeed in taking the city.
So you haven't read the counter-refutations, I take it?

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Unread 10-19-2005, 03:44 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by BurntHombre
So you haven't read the counter-refutations, I take it?
I skimmed the site whats-his-name linked to, which contained among other things a history of this city that by virtue of having a history to discuss must still exist in the author's mind.

What are the counter-refutations you're talking about? God maintains Tyre with an "appearance of existence"? It's an internet hoax perpetrated by unrepetant skeptics? The Bible says quite clearly that Tyre was supposed to have been completely destroyed. By Nebechadnezzer. Which part of the city's continued existence do you feel is a failure to invalidate this prophecy?
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Unread 10-19-2005, 03:56 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Qingu
There's not much merit to the skeptic's side? You mean the side that claims the prophecy is false because [Tyre], with a population of 80,000 people, is not destroyed and is not a "bare rock"?

Would you care to debate the existence of this city, BurntHombre?
Again, Qingu, you make an extremely basic mistake in interpreting prophesy. You are reading it from the perspective of a modern-western reader, not through the eyes of an ancient near-easterner (ANE). The prophesy does not claim that Tyre will never-ever-again be built in any form. This is a common form of hyperbole engaged in regularly during this time period. It is simply meant to communicate the dire situation that Tyre finds itself in.

Example - from Ramssses III:
I slew the Denyon in their islands, while the Tjekker and Philistines were made ashes. The Sherden and the Washesh of the sea were made non-existent, captured all together and brought on captivity to Egypt like the sands of the shore.
Here Ramesses says in the same sentence that Sherden and the Washesh were "made non-existent", and then he says they were all captured. Which is it? The "non-existent" phrase he makes is clearly ANE hyperbole, stated to paint a picture of the dire straights that the Sherden and the Washesh find themselves in.

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Originally Posted by Qingu
This is not even to mention that the Bible is wrong about history and Neb did not, in fact, succeed in taking the city.
You have attempted to make the Bible say something it does not. The Bible says that Tyre will be destroyed by "the Nations," of whom the Babylonians were only the first shot. The prophesy attributes certain actions to Nebuchadrezzar and other actions to "the Nations."
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Unread 10-19-2005, 05:36 PM   #34
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I read ina Josh McDowell book, if I remember correctly, that Tyre, a city on an island if I am not mistaken, was razed to the ground, but Tyrians rebuilt another Tyre elsewhere, and the original site is till bare rock to this day.
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Unread 10-19-2005, 11:02 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narcil
Again, Qingu, you make an extremely basic mistake in interpreting prophesy. You are reading it from the perspective of a modern-western reader, not through the eyes of an ancient near-easterner (ANE). The prophesy does not claim that Tyre will never-ever-again be built in any form. This is a common form of hyperbole engaged in regularly during this time period. It is simply meant to communicate the dire situation that Tyre finds itself in.
So it's not an actual prophesy, it's a hyperbole describing the seige of Nebuchadnezzer?

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You have attempted to make the Bible say something it does not. The Bible says that Tyre will be destroyed by "the Nations," of whom the Babylonians were only the first shot. The prophesy attributes certain actions to Nebuchadrezzar and other actions to "the Nations."
Ezekial 26:7
For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar [a] king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you. 9 He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons. His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the war horses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through. The hoofs of his horses will trample all your streets; he will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea. I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more. I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.
Two questions:
1. Why do you think the latter part of this passage is talking about anyone other than Neb's army?
2. Was God lying when he said "you will never be rebuilt"? Because that's what he said--hyperbole or not--and Tyre is doing just fine today.
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Unread 10-19-2005, 11:03 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Link H
I read ina Josh McDowell book, if I remember correctly, that Tyre, a city on an island if I am not mistaken, was razed to the ground, but Tyrians rebuilt another Tyre elsewhere, and the original site is till bare rock to this day.
Nope, not true. Nebechadnezzer failed to conquer it. Alexander built a causeway to the island, conquered it, but didn't destroy it. It's been conquered several times but never destroyed, since it's an important city for trade.
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Unread 10-20-2005, 07:08 AM   #37
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Facts are facts.

A history of Tyre and Sidon.
http://phoenicia.org/cities.html

Facts are facts. The island portion of Tyre is populated today, at least in part, with some 135,000 people ( http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.ph...&geo=443829521 ). It is no longer a sovereign city state or an empire as it once was. It is a part of Lebanon.

It no longer is the center of politics, military might, or commerce; and kings do not rule from there. It is primarily a tourist destination for those curious souls who wish to view what the once-powerful ancient city was like. About 50% of the island is dedicated as a preserve for the ruined ancient city.

Was the state of Tyre rebuilt, walled fortifications and all? No. Is it inhabited? Yes, and always has been. Was it destroyed? Well, duh, that's what all the tourists are going to visit. Is it used by fisherman for net repair? Yes, the tourists will tell you this.
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Unread 10-21-2005, 06:58 AM   #38
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[QUOTE=0000]
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2_da_k
I can go on for days about how many prophecys in our church have come true, but don't ask me too because I am a slow typer.


Take your time typing. Please provide some examples of prophecy in your local church. Thanks.

No. I am not going to waste my time when all that is going to happen is someine will come up with some garbage to "disprove" everything I say. People are so prideful that I could make a million valid points, use a million different examples and still get people trying to make me look wrong.
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Unread 10-21-2005, 07:21 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by j2_da_k
No. I am not going to waste my time when all that is going to happen is someine will come up with some garbage to "disprove" everything I say. People are so prideful that I could make a million valid points, use a million different examples and still get people trying to make me look wrong.

it is okay if someone does refute what you say. if you think it is the truth than speak it. it is pretty prideful to say "i've got the truth but it is a waste of my time to share it if other people will try to disprove it".
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Unread 10-21-2005, 07:22 AM   #40
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anyone else with examples of prophecy in their local church?
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Unread 10-21-2005, 08:44 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swordfish7
Was the state of Tyre rebuilt, walled fortifications and all? No. Is it inhabited? Yes, and always has been. Was it destroyed? Well, duh, that's what all the tourists are going to visit. Is it used by fisherman for net repair? Yes, the tourists will tell you this.
You could make the same statements about pretty much any coastal city over 500 years old.

Regardless, God said it would be destroyed for all time, a ruin forever, and names the person who would bring it to ruin. It didn't happen.
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Unread 10-21-2005, 10:47 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qingu
So it's not an actual prophesy, it's a hyperbole describing the seige of Nebuchadnezzer?
No, it is an actual prophesy. However it is a prophesy with some apocalyptic stylings. God said that the city would be destoryed by the nations, (it was), that the Babylonians would be the first shot (they were).

[QOUTE=Qingu]
1. Why do you think the latter part of this passage is talking about anyone other than Neb's army?[/QUOTE]
I could ask you the same question, "What makes you think that the passage says the Babylonians would detroy Tyre?"

But I won't.

The reason is very simple, passage by passage:

I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves. Who is against Tyre? God is. Who will He bring against the City? The Nations. (note the I/They relationship here)

They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock. The I/They relationship again. The Nations are the tools used by God.

Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD. She will become plunder for the nations, and her settlements on the mainland will be ravaged by the sword. Then they will know that I am the LORD. Again, God is the author of the destruction, the nations are His tool.

"For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you. The relationships have changed in this passage. God mentions one of the 'nations' specifically. Who is he? Nebuchadnezzar. What are his tools? Siege works, chariots, horsemen and a great army.

He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons. Now Nebby is doing the directing with the weapons under his command.

His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the war horses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through. The hoofs of his horses will trample all your streets; he will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. Nebbies horses, chariots, men, etc. are doing all of these things. Note that the Babylonian force is always named in this passage through Nebuchadnezzar. It is 'he' who is doing all these things.

They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea. I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more. I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD. Note that this passage has gone back to using the I/they relationship, which was not used previously when taking about the Babylonian force. Clearly, the prophesy has shifted back to speaking generally about God and the 'Nations.'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qingu
2. Was God lying when he said "you will never be rebuilt"? Because that's what he said--hyperbole or not--and Tyre is doing just fine today.
This is the portion that I would refer to as hyperbole. This passage appears to be written in an apocalyptic style which regularly uses dramatic language, such as we find here, to paint a word picture for the people the prophesy is directed at. Don't try to force a woodenly literal interpretation onto this portion of the prophesy, you would just be laughed at by the author and the ANE readers of this prophesy, who wouldn't have had any problem with this fulfillment of the prophesy (They would most likely be standing around, scratching their collective heads trying to figure out what you're making such a big deal about).
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Unread 10-21-2005, 11:00 PM   #43
Now what'd you break?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narcil
They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea. I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more. I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD. Note that this passage has gone back to using the I/they relationship, which was not used previously when taking about the Babylonian force. Clearly, the prophesy has shifted back to speaking generally about God and the 'Nations.'
In the Hebrew, is the "they" more specific. In English, the they doesn't really mean a whole lot as far as shifting to and frow. They could be the horses and chariots and army that "Nebbie" brought with him.

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Unread 10-23-2005, 10:17 AM   #44
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Has anyone else noticed that this thread has drifted way off topic? I find the original topic quite interesting. Can't we start another thread about Tyre?
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