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Unread 10-08-2005, 02:25 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenchild
I'm all for Sola Christus in the sense that we believe His word. I just happen to believe that Scripture(and Tradition - always gotta throw that monkey wrench in ) are Christ's words to us.
I've wondered....what truth is the Traditon based on? I mean I can understand you believing in Tradition (i don't believe it), but where did those teachings come from?

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Unread 10-08-2005, 08:56 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by goldenchild
I'm all for Sola Christus in the sense that we believe His word.
Sola Christus does not mean merely that "we believe His word", otherwise there would have been no point in the Reformers using it to seperate themselves from Rome.
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Unread 10-08-2005, 09:48 AM   #18
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This whole thing seems to be an effort to get those who are willing to stand for truth to all get together and hug. "Can't we all just get along?" The problem is that to "get alnong one must compromise his standards. Tolerance is fine if you are tolerating without condoning but to be silent against error and heresy is to condone it. Personally I will not be toloerant of anything that diminshes the truth of God.
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Unread 10-08-2005, 09:54 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadence
I've wondered....what truth is the Traditon based on? I mean I can understand you believing in Tradition (i don't believe it), but where did those teachings come from?
Tradition is God's teaching through the Apostles. Think of it this way, without God's Tradition we could never know which books of the Bible were Scripture. We need Tradition, Scripture needs Tradition. Tradition needs Scripture. Neither can be ignored. Both are God's word and are infallible and do not contradict each other in any way. What it does it give us insight as to what Scripture says and also gives us insight to teachings of Christ's that aren't made "obvious"(though can still be found) in Scripture(ie. Mary for an example).
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Unread 10-08-2005, 09:56 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by onelasttime
Sola Christus does not mean merely that "we believe His word", otherwise there would have been no point in the Reformers using it to seperate themselves from Rome.
So what does this mean then? We accept Christ but reject the greatest source we have to know about Him? How can we accept Christ if we don't know about Him and His teachings?
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Unread 10-08-2005, 09:57 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlqurgw
This whole thing seems to be an effort to get those who are willing to stand for truth to all get together and hug. "Can't we all just get along?" The problem is that to "get alnong one must compromise his standards. Tolerance is fine if you are tolerating without condoning but to be silent against error and heresy is to condone it. Personally I will not be toloerant of anything that diminshes the truth of God.
Amen
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Unread 10-08-2005, 10:14 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by goldenchild
So what does this mean then?
In the context it arose from, I believe it referred to the Reformers belief the the so-called "dulia" given to saints and the so-called "hyperdulia" given to Mary by Roman Catholics took glory away from Christ.

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We accept Christ but reject the greatest source we have to know about Him?
No, that's not what it means, but you're simply begging the question.

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How can we accept Christ if we don't know about Him and His teachings?
Same point as above.
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Unread 10-08-2005, 10:18 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by onelasttime
In the context it arose from, I believe it referred to the Reformers belief the the so-called "dulia" given to saints and the so-called "hyperdulia" given to Mary by Roman Catholics took glory away from Christ.
That's because they, and the vast majority of Protestantism has no idea what these things mean. Of course they think it takes glory away from God because people are always looking for faults in the Catholic Church that do not exist.



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No, that's not what it means, but you're simply begging the question.



Same point as above.
So this has nothing to do with Scripture then?
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Unread 10-08-2005, 10:24 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by goldenchild
That's because they, and the vast majority of Protestantism has no idea what these things mean. Of course they think it takes glory away from God because people are always looking for faults in the Catholic Church that do not exist.
Yes, of course, because it's always that people are "looking for faults in the Catholic Church that do not exist" and never that they are "examing the Roman Catholic Church and (at least attempt to) discern truth from falsity."

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So this has nothing to do with Scripture then?
Originally, I do not believe the phrase did.
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Unread 10-08-2005, 11:45 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbadon
This was an idea from another forum I'm on, and I like it.

(Originally written by Rev. Smith on ChristianForums.com):


I think that it's not a bad idea. I've seen the argument that "Oh, well, how would you know about Jesus if it weren't for the scriptures?", and "What's the point if you don't have faith, cause that's how you're saved.", and so on, but really, the idea would be the scriptures are a very important starting point and reference point, and it's faith in Christ is what we're talking about.
The entire bible is Gods word. It is theopneustos, it is God breathed (2nd Tim 3:16). Jesus is the Word made Flesh (John 1:1) So therefor, The Five Solas (Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Solus Crustus, Sola Scriptura, and Sola Deo Gloria) are based on Christ.
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Unread 10-08-2005, 12:36 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbadon
I believe that God's message was perfect, but that humans can screw it up just as we have screwed ourselves up. If the first copy was perfect, further copies could have been copied imperfectly, and translations could be imperfect. But I believe that, it's not the letter that matters, it's the message.

If I were to go with the idea that all scripture is God breathed, then I'd be at a conflict. The apocrapha is considered by some scripture, but by others it isn't. The book of Enoch is considered by some scripture, and others it isn't.

What does it hurt our faith as Christians to admit that there may be errors in the Bible? Nothing, if your faith is in God and not in the Bible as an idol.

Unfortunatly, it's 1:14 where I am, so I must leave now.
The big hole in all of this is that Jesus, as far as we know, never wrote a book or letter in His life. If He did, it hasn't survived til today. The same peopel that wrote biographies of His life are the same people that supported Paul's writings and Peter's and John's and James. The imperfect humans would have also and messed up what we know about Jesus as well. Therefore, WE CAN'T just go back to what Jesus said, IF you believe flawed humans left errors in the Bible.

For this exact same reason the entire Sola Christos idea is rather silly. Jesus didn't pen four auto-biographies. If Paul's writing are merely being considered human tradition being tacted on after Jesus's teachings, then we must also assume that the gospel writers similiarly would be influenced when writing the gospels. The gospels don't have a magic shield around them that makes them invulnerable to corruption (if we're following your understanding of inspiration). If the rest of the new testament is corrupted then so is Jesus teachings because they were all suported by the same people.
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Unread 10-08-2005, 10:33 PM   #27
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I have returned to CGR briefly because I've seen some things in this thread which I think demand my attention.

Quote:
I believe that God's message was perfect, but that humans can screw it up just as we have screwed ourselves up. If the first copy was perfect, further copies could have been copied imperfectly, and translations could be imperfect. But I believe that, it's not the letter that matters, it's the message.

If I were to go with the idea that all scripture is God breathed, then I'd be at a conflict. The apocrapha is considered by some scripture, but by others it isn't. The book of Enoch is considered by some scripture, and others it isn't.
If we can't trust the Word of God, whom can we trust? In your position, God isn't capable of preserving His Word.

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What does it hurt our faith as Christians to admit that there may be errors in the Bible? Nothing, if your faith is in God and not in the Bible as an idol.
My faith is in the God of the Bible. If there are errors in His self revelation, what trustworthy way of knowing Him do I have?

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The Protestants have their solas - sola scriptura, sola filde, sola grace and so on. The further I get into the tensions in the New Testament, the thesis length dissertations needed to reconcile Paul with Jesus, James and Peter and the weight we all carry of the complexity of a religion whose Master summed it up with : Love God, Love your neighbor, keep the commandments I have come to wonder, is there any value in this complexity.
This pastor puts forward the most asinine argument I've ever heard. "Let's love our neighbor and love God, but ignore the rest of the Bible which tells us how we may know God and how we, as guilty, wretched sinners, may be right with a holy God."

Who is this man? I am on Christianforums.com too - username FivePointCalvinist.

As an aside, Protestants have already coined the phrase "Solus Christus" - Christ alone. It means that Christ and His atoning sacrifice is the alone cause of our justification.



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Unread 10-09-2005, 12:31 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by ICTHUS
I have returned to CGR briefly because I've seen some things in this thread which I think demand my attention.



If we can't trust the Word of God, whom can we trust? In your position, God isn't capable of preserving His Word.

My faith is in the God of the Bible. If there are errors in His self revelation, what trustworthy way of knowing Him do I have?

This pastor puts forward the most asinine argument I've ever heard. "Let's love our neighbor and love God, but ignore the rest of the Bible which tells us how we may know God and how we, as guilty, wretched sinners, may be right with a holy God."
Who is this man? I am on Christianforums.com too - username FivePointCalvinist.

As an aside, Protestants have already coined the phrase "Solus Christus" - Christ alone. It means that Christ and His atoning sacrifice is the alone cause of our justification.



This is what I got from the argument as well... and strangely I agree with Ryan.
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Unread 10-09-2005, 03:13 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbadon
I believe that God's message was perfect, but that humans can screw it up just as we have screwed ourselves up. If the first copy was perfect, further copies could have been copied imperfectly, and translations could be imperfect. But I believe that, it's not the letter that matters, it's the message.
but how do you know that the teachings of Jesus that we have in the Bible have been copied perfectly? And is God not powerful enough to overcome our shortfalls to preserve His word the way He wanted it? Ideas like these are just different ways to justifiy sinful lifestyles. Jesus never tought it was wrong to do "X" so if we ignore what Paul said about "X" then it is not sinful if I do "X".
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