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Unread 10-04-2005, 08:44 AM   #1
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Holy Spirit in the OT vs. Today

I have been studying the work of the H.S. in the OT and this has led me to several questions.

How is the relationship between believers and the H.S. different in the OT than it is today. Or is it different at all?

What makes me wonder is Paul's insistance that believers in the OT were saved in the same way that believers are after the resurrection (Rom. 4). This would lead me to believe, along with many passages from the OT that the relationship is no different.

But then, this begs the question of what was so significant about Pentecost? In addition, we see in the OT that the HS comes upon some followers and later leaves them (look at King Saul). Do stories like Saul's have anything to teach us today about our relationship with the HS?

I'm a blank slate on this issue, and am looking forward to seeing the various answers and points that I know you will all post!

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Unread 10-04-2005, 06:56 PM   #2
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I can't add a whole lot, but I believe the church age began on the day of Pentecost.
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Unread 10-04-2005, 07:23 PM   #3
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Actually, the Holy Spirit wasn't in the Old Testament. The Holy Spirit came in Acts after Jesus' death.
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Unread 10-04-2005, 07:39 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImOnFire
Actually, the Holy Spirit wasn't in the Old Testament. The Holy Spirit came in Acts after Jesus' death.
But in Psalms 55:11 it says Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.
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Unread 10-04-2005, 07:46 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burningtr33
But in Psalms 55:11 it says Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.
The Holy Spirit of God, Yes. But in the OS, the Holy Spirit wasn't present within us until after Jesus' death.
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Unread 10-04-2005, 08:27 PM   #6
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Could you please clarify "the holy spirit of God" for me?
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Unread 10-04-2005, 09:22 PM   #7
There. That's better.
 
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Might it be that in the OT our righteousness was external, whereas now our righteousness is INternal through the redemptive work of Christ, thus allowing the Holy Spirit a place of internal residence?
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Unread 10-05-2005, 08:33 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImOnFire
Actually, the Holy Spirit wasn't in the Old Testament. The Holy Spirit came in Acts after Jesus' death.
The Holy Spirit is talked about at great length in the OT.

Like I wrote before, I have been studying this issue and the Holy Spirit is found in nearly every book of the OT, 'dwelling with man and making his place with them,' to paraphrase a passage from Ezekiel.

My problem is that I'm still not sure what to make the relationship between man and the Holy Spirit. In most cases, the relationship is very similar to what we see in the NT and today, but in a couple cases, it appears to be somewhat different from what I believe I know about it in the NT. Unless I've always been mistaken before, which is a possiblity (and hence the reason for this thread).
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Unread 10-05-2005, 08:34 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImOnFire
The Holy Spirit of God, Yes. But in the OS, the Holy Spirit wasn't present within us until after Jesus' death.
I doubt that you can justify making a distinction between the "Holy Spirit of God," and the "Holy Spirit."
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"The details differ, but the essential elements in the astronomical and biblical accounts of Genesis are the same: the chain of events leading to man commenced suddenly and sharply at a definite moment in time, in a flash of light and energy ... For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountain of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries." - Robert Jastrow, Ph.D Theoretical Physics

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Unread 10-06-2005, 10:15 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narcil
How is the relationship between believers and the H.S. different in the OT than it is today. Or is it different at all?

What makes me wonder is Paul's insistance that believers in the OT were saved in the same way that believers are after the resurrection (Rom. 4). This would lead me to believe, along with many passages from the OT that the relationship is no different.

But then, this begs the question of what was so significant about Pentecost? In addition, we see in the OT that the HS comes upon some followers and later leaves them (look at King Saul). Do stories like Saul's have anything to teach us today about our relationship with the HS?
I'm no expert on this subject, but, in general, most Christians seem to miss the great continuity between the Old and New Testaments; I certainly think this includes the stuff about the Holy Spirit. Most Christians will say, "The Holy Spirit didn't come until Acts 2," but this is really just a regurgitation of what they've heard all their lives. The fact is, they were saved by grace through faith, by the blood of the coming Messiah, just like we are saved by grace through faith by the blood of the Christ who has already come. I think this would imply that the same things were present in the Old Testament believers that are in us today. Psalm 55:11 seems to imply that David had the Spirit continually--not just at certain times.

As far as Pentecost goes, I don't there is any problem with believing that, though the Spirit is always dwelling in believers, there are points of some sort of special "filling" or "movement" by the Spirit. And I think that is what happened here--maybe as the official sign that the Twelve and the other followers of Christ are the true Israel.

Either way, the main purpose of the spirit is to convict and to guide, not to cause us to do crazy things and speak in other languages--those seem to be things that happen during those special movements of the Spirit. But God certainly convicted and guided the saints of the OT, so its only natural to assume that he did so through His Spirit as he does today.

Anyway, this may not make any sense... and it may be completely false... so don't take my word for it...
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Unread 10-06-2005, 10:21 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mara's Mom
Might it be that in the OT our righteousness was external, whereas now our righteousness is INternal through the redemptive work of Christ, thus allowing the Holy Spirit a place of internal residence?
I could sort of see what your saying
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Unread 10-07-2005, 01:30 PM   #12
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Actually, brandontmilan, you make perfect sense.

What you wrote was my gut instinct, but I wanted to be sure that I wasn't completely off the wall.

It does leave me with one problem though, as someone who has always been a believer in 'eternal security,' which is that the Holy Spirit clearly leaves some people in the OT after being with them for a time.

And of course, I agree with your assessment of Pentecost, although Jesus does speak of 'going away so he can send the helper...,' which would seem to imply that the Holy Spirit hadn't come yet.

I will continue studying and thinking about these issues. And I would greatly value any more input you may have on the issue.
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"The details differ, but the essential elements in the astronomical and biblical accounts of Genesis are the same: the chain of events leading to man commenced suddenly and sharply at a definite moment in time, in a flash of light and energy ... For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountain of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries." - Robert Jastrow, Ph.D Theoretical Physics

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Unread 10-07-2005, 03:02 PM   #13
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Jesus said that the filling of the Holy Spirit after His ascension would be different then the work the Holy Spirit did before the ascension-- Specifially he stated that He must go so that the comforter could come and work and live in each of our lives. It seems that prior to this time the Holy Spirit came upon specific believers and empowered them for a time, but the indweeling of the Holy Spirit wasn't a continual thing, hence the psalms and prayers that decry the Spirit's absence. -----It seems evident that by Jesus very words the Holy Spirit's work is different after Pentecost then the work prior to Pentecost.
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Unread 10-07-2005, 03:57 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milkmandog
Jesus said that the filling of the Holy Spirit after His ascension would be different then the work the Holy Spirit did before the ascension-- Specifially he stated that He must go so that the comforter could come and work and live in each of our lives. It seems that prior to this time the Holy Spirit came upon specific believers and empowered them for a time, but the indweeling of the Holy Spirit wasn't a continual thing, hence the psalms and prayers that decry the Spirit's absence. -----It seems evident that by Jesus very words the Holy Spirit's work is different after Pentecost then the work prior to Pentecost.
This also flows from the fact that there was one temple before and that now we (Christians) are all temples of God.
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Unread 10-08-2005, 12:28 AM   #15
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I highly recommend a book by Andrew Murray titled: A Life of Power. I just finished reading it and he explains quite a bit.

From my understanding of it in the OT, the Holy Spirit was sent to help somebody (like a prophet) with a specific task and then left them. While in the NT, the Holy Spirit is actually sent to dwell in us. We are made into living temples. The signifience of pentecost was they were filled with the Holy Spirit. This was the first time that the Holy Spirit really entered into our "inner sanctuary" so to say. Murray goes on to explain that just like in the OT temple, we have an outer court, inner court, and inner sanctuary (think I said that right...). So instead of a temporary "enpowerment" we have the Holy Spirit of God living inside of us daily.

And about the righteousness in the OT: The law was created so that God could, in a sense, "give us a chance to achieve perfection." We couldn't, can, and never will be (until we reach heaven) able to reach sinlessness. (I'm having an extremely hard time finding words for explaining this.) The law was based not on just external righteousness, but a righteousness of the heart. (To be honest I can't think of how to explain this right now, so I'll get back to it again some other time.)

Well, I could be wrong, but that's my opinion. I will pray about it and do some research on it and share what I come up with. Have a good day/night everybody, I need to get some sleep!

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David
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