[cuziamthecaptai]

Originally Posted by Narcil

(If you atheists out there want to discuss the myth that the founders were mostly diests, I would be happy to discuss that with you in a thread in the history forum perhaps )

I'll bite. How are we going to measure the belief system of the founding fathers?
Quotes? Historical consensus? Treaties/signed documents? Whatever the standard, it has to be objective and standardized.

We have to decide who is a 'founding father' and make a point system.

This isn't fundy-land where something is true because you want it to be true. Check your sources before you say something as foolish as the founding fathers weren't mostly deists.

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by Narcil

It depends on what you mean by "christian nation." If you mean a nation that has made the Bible law, then of course I agree with you.

However, when I, and most others, speak of the United States being a "christian nation," we mean that it was founded by Christians, built up by christians, and a sense of "civic christianity" has always existed in this country.
(If you atheists out there want to discuss the myth that the founders were mostly diests, I would be happy to discuss that with you in a thread in the history forum perhaps )

There is nothing to discuss, Narcil. Many of them were deists, including the author of the Declaration of Independence. I have provided many quotes that prove this fact. If you wish to continue to argue that they were Christians, you clearly do not have any grasp of reality, or perhaps you're in some strange sort of denial.

You are right again! But it is the court's job to be the referees of the nation. It is congress' job to make the rules. What I was refering to when I wrote about 220+ years of tradition was the congress and the supreme court openning every morning with a prayer to God. So far, every court and every congress since the very beginning of this nation has not had a problem with acknowledging God. That is an established tradition of assent that the Court must take into consideration in it's ruling and should bear a great deal of weight.

Acknowledging God is different from endorsing God in a public classroom. Again, if you are ignorant of this crucial distinction I suggest you study your material more.

From the very beginning of this country, there has always been an entanglement of God and government, just not between organized religion and government. There is a big difference.

Rhetoric. And most of the founding fathers did not believe in the same God as you. Honestly, Narcil, if you are going to continue to appeal to "Christian principles" this nation was supposedly founded on, I am going to call you on dishonesty. Your fabricated revisionist history is not an argument.

[Narcil]

Originally Posted by cuziamthecaptai

I'll bite. How are we going to measure the belief system of the founding fathers?
Quotes? Historical consensus? Treaties/signed documents? Whatever the standard, it has to be objective and standardized.

We have to decide who is a 'founding father' and make a point system.

This isn't fundy-land where something is true because you want it to be true. Check your sources before you say something as foolish as the founding fathers weren't mostly deists.

Sorry I haven't replied sooner, I've been at work all day, plus I have a family that likes to see me occasionally.

I would say that their beliefs could easily be established through speeches, writings, letters, associations and groups established by them. Remember, you claimed that nearly all the founders were deists at best.

For all of our edification, what is a deist? A deist is someone who believes that there is a God, but that that God is impersonal, and does not care about what goes on here in it's creation. Essentially, that God created then walked away and no longer get's involved.

As far as who the founders are: specifically, any signer of the Declaration of Independence, anyone involved in creating the Constitution, or anyone who had significant input in the first continental congress. Obiviously wieghted to the biggest names from the time period.

If you find this agreeable, just let me know and I will be happy to create a new thread in "History." If you have anything to add or amend to anything I have said, please let me know.

Finally, have patience with me. I don't get a lot of time to post, but I will respond when I can.

[JerryLove]

http://www.christianguitar.org/forum...unding+fathers

http://www.christianguitar.org/forum...unding+fathers

[cuziamthecaptai]

Originally Posted by Narcil

Sorry I haven't replied sooner, I've been at work all day, plus I have a family that likes to see me occasionally.

I would say that their beliefs could easily be established through speeches, writings, letters, associations and groups established by them. Remember, you claimed that nearly all the founders were deists at best.

For all of our edification, what is a deist? A deist is someone who believes that there is a God, but that that God is impersonal, and does not care about what goes on here in it's creation. Essentially, that God created then walked away and no longer get's involved.

As far as who the founders are: specifically, any signer of the Declaration of Independence, anyone involved in creating the Constitution, or anyone who had significant input in the first continental congress. Obiviously wieghted to the biggest names from the time period.

If you find this agreeable, just let me know and I will be happy to create a new thread in "History." If you have anything to add or amend to anything I have said, please let me know.

Finally, have patience with me. I don't get a lot of time to post, but I will respond when I can.

Okay, I agree with what a 'deist' is.

Let's use the top ten 'founding fathers' as agreed upon by the consensus in the recognized experts in the revolutionary war time period.
Then, for each top ten, we'll see what the primary historian / biographer assess as the religious type of the founding father.

So for Thomas Jefferson, we'd have historians who would agree that's he's one of the top ten founding fathers and we'd see what his biographer asserts as his religious preference.

That way, there's some authenticity and we don't have to wade through various quotes. Comes right from the hourses mouth.

Remember-- recognized experts and biographers-- not what some self-appointed 'expert' from Bible Patriot University says.

Majority equals 6 of 10

alternatively, for times sake-- we could do top 5. I would assert the top five would be:
Jefferson
Franklin
Madison
Adams
Hamilton
Maybe best 3 out of five?

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by Narcil

Sorry I haven't replied sooner, I've been at work all day, plus I have a family that likes to see me occasionally.

I would say that their beliefs could easily be established through speeches, writings, letters, associations and groups established by them. Remember, you claimed that nearly all the founders were deists at best.

For all of our edification, what is a deist? A deist is someone who believes that there is a God, but that that God is impersonal, and does not care about what goes on here in it's creation. Essentially, that God created then walked away and no longer get's involved.

As far as who the founders are: specifically, any signer of the Declaration of Independence, anyone involved in creating the Constitution, or anyone who had significant input in the first continental congress. Obiviously wieghted to the biggest names from the time period.

If you find this agreeable, just let me know and I will be happy to create a new thread in "History." If you have anything to add or amend to anything I have said, please let me know.

Finally, have patience with me. I don't get a lot of time to post, but I will respond when I can.

There are shades of deism. What I'm more interested in is how in the hell you can maintain with a straight face that these people are Christians. There is absolutely nothing to debate here, Narcil; we have quotes by them denying that Jesus is the son of God and calling the Bible a dung-heap. Just give it up. You are verging on bearing false witness.

[guitarmonkey<><]

Originally Posted by Qingu

There are shades of deism. What I'm more interested in is how in the hell you can maintain with a straight face that these people are Christians. There is absolutely nothing to debate here, Narcil; we have quotes by them denying that Jesus is the son of God and calling the Bible a dung-heap. Just give it up. You are verging on bearing false witness.

You do realize that your key player of Deism, Thomas Jefferson. Was not at the drafting, nor the Signing of the Constitution. Neither was Adams, or Hancock. Thomas Jefferson was not elected as the Representative for Virgina, Washington was. Hancock and Adams were both in England.

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by guitarmonkey<><

You do realize that your key player of Deism, Thomas Jefferson. Was not at the drafting, nor the Signing of the Constitution.

He was in France at the time, acting as secretary of state. James Madison sent Jefferson a draft of the constitution, which he approved with the caveat that it should have a bill of rights. I don't think this is a valid point to make on your part.

Neither was Adams, or Hancock. Thomas Jefferson was not elected as the Representative for Virgina, Washington was. Hancock and Adams were both in England.

I don't remember bringing up Hancock, and I don't see why this matter for Adams, who was also very influential in buidling the government of early America.

[guitarmonkey<><]

Originally Posted by Qingu

He was in France at the time, acting as secretary of state. James Madison sent Jefferson a draft of the constitution, which he approved with the caveat that it should have a bill of rights. I don't think this is a valid point to make on your part.

That does not make sense, Jefferson was Anti-Feralist. He oppossed most of the Constitution.

I don't remember bringing up Hancock, and I don't see why this matter for Adams, who was also very influential in buidling the government of early America.

I was under the impression Hancock was agnostic, and Adams was a deist. I could be mistaken.

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by guitarmonkey<><

That does not make sense, Jefferson was Anti-Feralist. He oppossed most of the Constitution.

Not true. The constitution by its nature is not federalist. Also, Jefferson urged a Bill of Rights ... for several reasons, including his anti-federalist stance (see Amendment #10).

I was under the impression Hancock was agnostic, and Adams was a deist. I could be mistaken.

I actually don't know about Hancock. Adams appears to be a deist/atheist.

[guitarmonkey<><]

Originally Posted by Qingu

Not true. The constitution by its nature is not federalist. Also, Jefferson urged a Bill of Rights ... for several reasons, including his anti-federalist stance (see Amendment #10).

The Constitution is completely Federalist. Federalism is where the states and the government share the power. This is clearly enumered in the Constitutuion by what the Government can do, and what the states can do. Neither can overstep what was layed out in the Constitution.
Amendment 10 was a compromise in order to ratify the Constitution. This is still Federalist in nature, all it says is that, the Government has no Grey area, and if it is in question, the power in question falls to the States and the People to fufill.


"The Powers not delegated (Federalist) to the United States by the Constiution, nor prohibited (Federalist) by it to the States, (Compromise) are reserved to the States respectively,(Anti-Federalist) or to the People (Compromise)"
As you can see, the Federalist pretty much won on that. I don't know how that happened, but, it succeded in calming the Anti-Federalists.

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by guitarmonkey<><

The Constitution is completely Federalist. Federalism is where the states and the government share the power. This is clearly enumered in the Constitutuion by what the Government can do, and what the states can do. Neither can overstep what was layed out in the Constitution.
Amendment 10 was a compromise in order to ratify the Constitution. This is still Federalist in nature, all it says is that, the Government has no Grey area, and if it is in question, the power in question falls to the States and the People to fufill.

Okay, okay, let's step back. America is federalist, democratic and republican ... with lowercase letters. However, we have Federalists, Democrats and Republicans (with capital letters) that represent specific party ideologies.

Jefferson was indeed anti-Federalist—and here I'm talking about Hamilton's political party/ideology that very loosely interpreted the constitution and granted very broad powers to the federal government.

Jefferson was not against the existence of a federal government (obviously not ... he was president of it). He was for limiting this federal government's authority to those powers expressly granted (that is, not implied) by the Constitution.

"The Powers not delegated (Federalist) to the United States by the Constiution, nor prohibited (Federalist) by it to the States, (Compromise) are reserved to the States respectively,(Anti-Federalist) or to the People (Compromise)"
As you can see, the Federalist pretty much won on that. I don't know how that happened, but, it succeded in calming the Anti-Federalists.

I don't see how you're getting this. I think the problem is that you are confusing the political party (the Federalists) with the federal system of government.

[guitarmonkey<><]

Yes, somewhat true. However we are not a "democratic" nation. We are a Federal Republic. That is what I was saying, this went really off subject though, so I am going to drop it.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by guitarmonkey<><

Yes, somewhat true. However we are not a "democratic" nation. We are a Federal Republic. That is what I was saying, this went really off subject though, so I am going to drop it.

actually, we are a representative republic, which is a form of democracy.

[guitarmonkey<><]

Originally Posted by Bryan

actually, we are a representative republic, which is a form of democracy.

Republic means representative. Instead of every citizen going to vote every week. We elect people to do it for us. Representative Republic both mean exactly the same thing.
Our Government is a Bi-cameral Federal Republic. Federal meaning that the Government can do certain things that the states can't and vice versa. Bi-cameral means we have two houses. An upper house The Senate and a lower house The House of Represenatives.