[Qingu]

Originally Posted by guitarmonkey<><

Republic means representative. Instead of every citizen going to vote every week. We elect people to do it for us. Representative Republic both mean exactly the same thing.
Our Government is a Bi-cameral Federal Republic. Federal meaning that the Government can do certain things that the states can't and vice versa. Bi-cameral means we have two houses. An upper house The Senate and a lower house The House of Represenatives.

I think the point is that we are "democratic" in a general sense of the word. "Republican" is a form of democracy, as the word "democracy" is commonly used. Obviously we are not a pure democracy where every citizen votes directly, but then Americans have always described ourselves as a democracy and Bush himself talks about "spreading democracy."

Of course ... this is not only off-topic but an argument about semantics.

[guitarmonkey<><]

I cannot believe I forgot about this.
The bill of rights was proposed bu James Madison, who was a professed Christian. The bill of rights was drafted by a clegeryman from Vriginia. He came up to Madison and said that we needed to protect the rights of religion and freedom. Madison said that he would propose this in congress as an election promise. By the way, Madison also is known as the "Father of the Constitution" and was the one who drafted it.

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by guitarmonkey<><

I cannot believe I forgot about this.
The bill of rights was proposed bu James Madison, who was a professed Christian. The bill of rights was drafted by a clegeryman from Vriginia. He came up to Madison and said that we needed to protect the rights of religion and freedom. Madison said that he would propose this in congress as an election promise. By the way, Madison also is known as the "Father of the Constitution" and was the one who drafted it.

James Madison:

What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.

[guitarmonkey<><]

Originally Posted by Qingu

James Madison:

What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.

Ironic.
James Madison (1751-1836) Attended Princeton which was at that time a Presbyterian College. Studied under Presbyterian president John Witherspoon, a signer of the Declaration of Independance.

The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries. -James Madison


What is government itself but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary.
James Madison

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]- James Madison

In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of
the Bible.
“ An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia” Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress
Sound like he believed in God to me. My God too, not the "Clock-work" God.

"...we have all been encouraged to feel in the guardianship and guidance of that Almighty Being whose power regulates the destiny of nations, whose blessings have been so conspicuously dispensed to this rising Republic, and to whom we are bound to address our devout gratitude for the past, as well as our fervent supplications and best hopes for the future."

Also, the only site I found your quote was an Atheist propganda site. Not too objective to say the least.
Seeing as that is the only site I found it on. It could very easily be misquoted.

[Qingu]

Quote fight!

Letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774:
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise"

Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, Section 7, 1785:
“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.”

Ibid, Section 8:
“What influence in fact have ecclesiastical establishments had on Civil Society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the Civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny: in no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty, may have found an established Clergy convenient auxiliaries”

James Madison, introducing the Bill of Rights at the First Federal Congress, Congressional Register, June 8, 1789:
"[The] civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner or on any pretext infringed."

James Madison, Detached Memoranda, believed to have been written circa 1817.
"The establishment of the chaplainship to Congress is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles: The tenets of the chaplains elected [by the majority] shut the door of worship against the members whose creeds and consciences forbid a participation in that of the majority. To say nothing of other sects, this is the case with that of Roman Catholics and Quakers who have always had members in one or both of the Legislative branches. Could a Catholic clergyman ever hope to be appointed a Chaplain? To say that his religious principles are obnoxious or that his sect is small, is to lift the evil at once and exhibit in its naked deformity the doctrine that religious truth is to be tested by numbers. or that the major sects have a right to govern the minor."

James Madison, letter to Robert Walsh, March 2, 1819
"The Civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the Church from the State."

James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822:
"I observe with particular pleasure the view you have taken of the immunity of Religion from civil jurisdiction, in every case where it does not trespass on private rights or the public peace. This has always been a favorite principle with me; and it was not with my approbation, that the deviation from it took place in Cong[ress], when they appointed Chaplains, to be paid from the Nat[ional] Treasury. It would have been a much better proof to their Constituents of their pious feeling if the members had contributed for the purpose, a pittance from their own pockets. As the precedent is not likely to be rescinded, the best that can now be done, may be to apply to the Const[itution] the maxim of the law, de minimis non curat."

All of the above are taken from
http://www.deism.org/foundingfathers.htm

I forgot where I got my original quote, but I think these will do. Notice that many of my cites are from private letters, while the quote you cited that best supports your position that Madison is a Christian (or at least favors Christian government) is taken from a public speech.

[guitarmonkey<><]

Originally Posted by Qingu

Quote fight!

Letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774:
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise"

Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, Section 7, 1785:
“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.”

Ibid, Section 8:
“What influence in fact have ecclesiastical establishments had on Civil Society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the Civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny: in no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty, may have found an established Clergy convenient auxiliaries”

James Madison, introducing the Bill of Rights at the First Federal Congress, Congressional Register, June 8, 1789:
"[The] civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner or on any pretext infringed."

James Madison, Detached Memoranda, believed to have been written circa 1817.
"The establishment of the chaplainship to Congress is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles: The tenets of the chaplains elected [by the majority] shut the door of worship against the members whose creeds and consciences forbid a participation in that of the majority. To say nothing of other sects, this is the case with that of Roman Catholics and Quakers who have always had members in one or both of the Legislative branches. Could a Catholic clergyman ever hope to be appointed a Chaplain? To say that his religious principles are obnoxious or that his sect is small, is to lift the evil at once and exhibit in its naked deformity the doctrine that religious truth is to be tested by numbers. or that the major sects have a right to govern the minor."

James Madison, letter to Robert Walsh, March 2, 1819
"The Civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the Church from the State."

James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822:
"I observe with particular pleasure the view you have taken of the immunity of Religion from civil jurisdiction, in every case where it does not trespass on private rights or the public peace. This has always been a favorite principle with me; and it was not with my approbation, that the deviation from it took place in Cong[ress], when they appointed Chaplains, to be paid from the Nat[ional] Treasury. It would have been a much better proof to their Constituents of their pious feeling if the members had contributed for the purpose, a pittance from their own pockets. As the precedent is not likely to be rescinded, the best that can now be done, may be to apply to the Const[itution] the maxim of the law, de minimis non curat."

All of the above are taken from
http://www.deism.org/foundingfathers.htm

I forgot where I got my original quote, but I think these will do. Notice that many of my cites are from private letters, while the quote you cited that best supports your position that Madison is a Christian (or at least favors Christian government) is taken from a public speech.

Gah, like I don't have enough research as it is. Letters it is then.

[Benny Hicks]

Originally Posted by Qingu

Quote fight!

Narcil, I am a conservative, evangelical Christian, but the truth is that the majority of founding fathers were, in fact, deists.

[cuziamthecaptai]

Originally Posted by guitarmonkey<><

Ironic.
James Madison (1751-1836) Attended Princeton which was at that time a Presbyterian College. Studied under Presbyterian president John Witherspoon, a signer of the Declaration of Independance.

So? A deist could do all these things

Originally Posted by guitarmonkey<><

The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries. -James Madison

This doesn't mean Madison is a Christian who wanted the nation founded on x-tian principles.

Originally Posted by guitarmonkey<><

What is government itself but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary.
James Madison

Irrelevant quote. He's saying people aren't angels. I say the same thing.

Originally Posted by guitarmonkey<><

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]- James Madison

Nothing to do with x-tianity. A diest can follow the 10 commandements as well as an x-tian. One god-- dont' steal, dont' kill, don't commit adultery.

Originally Posted by guitarmonkey<><

In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of
the Bible.
“ An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia” Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress

Originally Posted by guitarmonkey<><

Sound like he believed in God to me. My God too, not the "Clock-work" God.

This is the big one. Okay. - one point for mixing x-tianity with govt.

Originally Posted by guitarmonkey<><

"...we have all been encouraged to feel in the guardianship and guidance of that Almighty Being whose power regulates the destiny of nations, whose blessings have been so conspicuously dispensed to this rising Republic, and to whom we are bound to address our devout gratitude for the past, as well as our fervent supplications and best hopes for the future."

"almight being" doesn't sound very x-tian to me. No mention of Christ? Christ!

Looking at Q's:

Letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774:
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise"

Wow. Not indicitive directly for govt. but-- it's telling.

Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, Section 7, 1785:
“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.”

Also not commenting direct on govt but telling.

Ibid, Section 8:
“What influence in fact have ecclesiastical establishments had on Civil Society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the Civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny: in no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty, may have found an established Clergy convenient auxiliaries”

Point! Clearly extoling the dangers of mixing religion and govt.

James Madison, introducing the Bill of Rights at the First Federal Congress, Congressional Register, June 8, 1789:
"[The] civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner or on any pretext infringed."

Point!

James Madison, Detached Memoranda, believed to have been written circa 1817.
"The establishment of the chaplainship to Congress is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles: The tenets of the chaplains elected [by the majority] shut the door of worship against the members whose creeds and consciences forbid a participation in that of the majority. To say nothing of other sects, this is the case with that of Roman Catholics and Quakers who have always had members in one or both of the Legislative branches. Could a Catholic clergyman ever hope to be appointed a Chaplain? To say that his religious principles are obnoxious or that his sect is small, is to lift the evil at once and exhibit in its naked deformity the doctrine that religious truth is to be tested by numbers. or that the major sects have a right to govern the minor."

Point!

James Madison, letter to Robert Walsh, March 2, 1819
"The Civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the Church from the State."

Point!

James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822:
"I observe with particular pleasure the view you have taken of the immunity of Religion from civil jurisdiction, in every case where it does not trespass on private rights or the public peace. This has always been a favorite principle with me; and it was not with my approbation, that the deviation from it took place in Cong[ress], when they appointed Chaplains, to be paid from the Nat[ional] Treasury. It would have been a much better proof to their Constituents of their pious feeling if the members had contributed for the purpose, a pittance from their own pockets. As the precedent is not likely to be rescinded, the best that can now be done, may be to apply to the Const[itution] the maxim of the law, de minimis non curat."

Point!

So looks like you have to get some more quotes there, WJ.

It seems silly but hey-- if this is the way you want to discern the thoughts of the founding fathers. Also, if you want, I can e-mail a few history profes who have studied Madison. This, I believe, would be far more telling. But remember-- you have to accept their opinion.

[guitarmonkey<><]

Originally Posted by cuziamthecaptai

So? A deist could do all these things


This doesn't mean Madison is a Christian who wanted the nation founded on x-tian principles.


Irrelevant quote. He's saying people aren't angels. I say the same thing.


Nothing to do with x-tianity. A diest can follow the 10 commandements as well as an x-tian. One god-- dont' steal, dont' kill, don't commit adultery.


This is the big one. Okay. - one point for mixing x-tianity with govt.


"almight being" doesn't sound very x-tian to me. No mention of Christ? Christ!

Looking at Q's:

Wow. Not indicitive directly for govt. but-- it's telling.


Also not commenting direct on govt but telling.


Point! Clearly extoling the dangers of mixing religion and govt.


Point!


Point!


Point!


Point!

So looks like you have to get some more quotes there, WJ.

It seems silly but hey-- if this is the way you want to discern the thoughts of the founding fathers. Also, if you want, I can e-mail a few history profes who have studied Madison. This, I believe, would be far more telling. But remember-- you have to accept their opinion.

I don't mind emailing anyone. As long as they are unbaised and objective. They can have their own views. But, their report must be completely based on fact. Not, "well since I am a christian/atheist, I think."
If you can do that, go for it.

[cuziamthecaptai]

Originally Posted by guitarmonkey<><

I don't mind emailing anyone. As long as they are unbaised and objective. They can have their own views. But, their report must be completely based on fact. Not, "well since I am a christian/atheist, I think."
If you can do that, go for it.

Well, here's what I want. I want an OBJECTIVE STANDARD that, if it goes my way, means unequivically that the U.S. was founded with secular intentions. No more "this nation was founded as a Christian nation" nonsense.

So if I take the time to ask a biographer of Madison, and said expert takes the time to respond, and that expert's opinion was that either Madison was a Deist/made the constituion be based on secular principles, end of debate. No more fundy nonsense about this being a 'christian nation.' Understood?