[Qingu]

Originally Posted by Gsus_Rawks

Wow! I’m really an extremely brilliant mathematician/scientist!?!

Sorry, I missed this post.

You may be an extremely brilliant 13-year old but I was not referring to you.

It is not clear that there is such a thing as "randomness." Your computer cannot come up with a random number, for example.

What we call "randomness" is actually just "stuff we can't predict with known laws." For example, in a thunderstorm, lightning appears to strike "randomly." But actually, lightning follows very specific chemical and physical laws. It is not random at all.

Can you show that there is such a thing as randomness?

(Chances of planets spinning different directions, chances that all the material in the universe could just be here... etc are not discussed, for it is impossible...)

It's impossible that the universe "could just be here"? Why do you make this claim? (Don't you believe the same thing about God?)

At this point, you seem to make up a bunch of random statistics with a lot of zeros after them. Rather than respond directly, I'll ask you a question:

What are the chances that you, our of all the people and possibilities in history, were born, grew up, became a Christian and are currently reading these exact words I am typing to you now?

[Gsus_Rawks]

Originally Posted by grand_master_d

Believing in evolution sounds one to hell?!?! Oh $*@#!

Two things: It doesnt sound you to hell. It sends you to hell, and yes, it does, according to my studies and my beliefs. I'm 100% sure, I bet my life on it. No really, I do bet my life on it.

But thats only if you are from an athesitic point of view, if you are just decieved but you "believe in the Lord Jesus you will be saved"

[Gsus_Rawks]

Originally Posted by Qingu

Sorry, I missed this post.

You may be an extremely brilliant 13-year old but I was not referring to you.

I was being sarcastic, incase you didnt notice. Im not dull, but im no genious.

It is not clear that there is such a thing as "randomness." Your computer cannot come up with a random number, for example.

What we call "randomness" is actually just "stuff we can't predict with known laws." For example, in a thunderstorm, lightning appears to strike "randomly." But actually, lightning follows very specific chemical and physical laws. It is not random at all.

Can you show that there is such a thing as randomness?

Of course, you could always justify somthing. Like me hitting the keys "jsdhguirshnvjklbpspwks" I could say is totally random. But you could say somthing in my brina triggered my hands to hit those keys. I could say that a genetic mutation is random, but you could say, there is a way to predict a genetic variation 10 years in advance if you examined the data.

It's impossible that the universe "could just be here"? Why do you make this claim? (Don't you believe the same thing about God?)

Yes, it is impossible that the universe could "just be here". The matter has to be created at one time or another. It cant just be here. It had to originate from somthing. If there was eternity past. what triggered the big bang? It couldnt of just happened unless there was somekind of perfect power.

Why do you make this claim?

I make this claim because it had to originate at one time or another

(Don't you believe the same thing about God?)

God isnt physical, God is spiritual. God could have been here all along because he didnt just appear as matter. He has always been physical, invisible.

At this point, you seem to make up a bunch of random statistics with a lot of zeros after them. Rather than respond directly, I'll ask you a question:

What are the chances that you, our of all the people and possibilities in history, were born, grew up, became a Christian and are currently reading these exact words I am typing to you now?

Well, theres about a 1 in 1 trillion chance, due to the genetic makeup of us, You could only be born to your parents and that of mine. The the probablitity that I am the combination of my parents that I am is about 1/1,000,000 and same with you. so about 1 in 1billion, but I believe that God destined me to be the 1 in 1,000,000 possible choices and same with you.

Im sure there is somthing here u didnt undersatnd. But i do things and go places on a regular basis. Im a fairly slow typer (about 40wpm) and it will take me a while to respond.

[Gsus_Rawks]

Originally Posted by grand_master_d

Hmmm... doesn't sound very "direct" to me. It sounds more like twisting... manipulating... random interpretating...

No, it would be more like taking geneologies and ages of births etc. and showing the time gap.

[Gsus_Rawks]

Originally Posted by Qingu

Thinking requires a brain. Many animals do not have a brain, not to mention all plants, fungi, protists, eubacteria and archaeabacteria.

Are you seirously saying the only things that are alive are animals with a brain? (What about starfish? They don't have a brain but they have a rudimentary nervous system)

Sorry. I thought you were rephering to complex lifeforms, humans mostly.

The dictionary defines life as:
"the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body b : a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings -- compare VITALISM 1 c : an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction
2 a : the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individual b : one or more aspects of the process of living
3 : BIOGRAPHY 1
4 : spiritual existence transcending physical death
5 a : the period from birth to death b : a specific phase of earthly existence c : the period from an event until death d : a sentence of imprisonment for the remainder of a convict's life
6 : a way or manner of living
7 : LIVELIHOOD
8 : a vital or living being; specifically : PERSON
9 : an animating and shaping force or principle
10 : SPIRIT, ANIMATION
11 : the form or pattern of something existing in reality
12 : the period of duration, usefulness, or popularity of something
13 : the period of existence (as of a subatomic particle) -- compare HALF-LIFE
14 : a property (as resilience or elasticity) of an inanimate substance or object resembling the animate quality of a living being
15 : living beings (as of a particular kind or environment)
16 a : human activities b : animate activity and movement c : the activities of a given sphere, area, or time
17 : one providing interest and vigor
18 : an opportunity for continued viability
19 capitalized, Christian Science : GOD 1b
20 : something resembling animate life "

Source "http://www.m-w.com", (merriam-webster dictionary)

Okay, what does this have to do with (1) evolution, or (2) the topic of this thread (the age of the earth)?

I was just saying that life doesnt make sense without God. So I was trying to find out how evolution explains it

[JerryLove]

*yawn*

[Wesley7777]

I have always wondered doesn't science break its own rules about the big bang.

We learned in chemistry matter cannot be made or destroyed, in the big bang matter was created from nothing. I see some scientist saying they can make dirt and other stuff you would need to make a universe.

AS soon as i see a guy take a empty box, completely empty of everything no oxygen. and makes matter from completely nothing i will rethink my reasoning. I would love to see someone prove that this can be done.

[JerryLove]

I have always wondered doesn't science break its own rules about the big bang.

We don't know. If so, the rule is inadequate.

We learned in chemistry matter cannot be made or destroyed

That's an odd place to learn it, it's not part of chemestry but of physics.

in the big bang matter was created from nothing.

That's not part of the Big Bang theory. Please critique the actual theory rather than a straw-man parody of it.

AS soon as i see a guy take a empty box, completely empty of everything no oxygen. and makes matter from completely nothing i will rethink my reasoning. I would love to see someone prove that this can be done.

I've never seen God perform that either... interesting 'neh?

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by Gsus_Rawks

Yes, it is impossible that the universe could "just be here". The matter has to be created at one time or another. It cant just be here. It had to originate from somthing.

God isnt physical, God is spiritual. God could have been here all along because he didnt just appear as matter. He has always been physical, invisible.

So basically you're saying that the universe cannot be eternal but God can be eternal. The reason for this is that God is invisible.

...?

Would you care to explain this reasoning to the body of scientists that believe the universe is eternal?

Well, theres about a 1 in 1 trillion chance, due to the genetic makeup of us, You could only be born to your parents and that of mine. The the probablitity that I am the combination of my parents that I am is about 1/1,000,000 and same with you. so about 1 in 1billion, but I believe that God destined me to be the 1 in 1,000,000 possible choices and same with you.

The point I was making is that you are not calculating the odds right. If there's a 1 in 1 trillion chance of you reading these words at this moment in history, by your logic, you would say that it's impossible. The problem is with your logic.

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by wesley7777

We learned in chemistry matter cannot be made or destroyed, in the big bang matter was created from nothing.

No. The Big Bang is a description of the earliest known point of the universe. It is not "creation from nothing." Not even God does this in the Bible.

There is no such thing as "before the Big Bang." Time did not exist "before the big bang."

In the same way, from your perspective, there is no such thing as "before God," is there?

Scientists believe the matter/energy in the Big Bang singularity has simply always existed. Since the net energy of the universe is zero, this brings up interesting philosophical questions of what it means to exist in the first place.

[Gsus_Rawks]

Originally Posted by Qingu

So basically you're saying that the universe cannot be eternal but God can be eternal. The reason for this is that God is invisible.

...?

Would you care to explain this reasoning to the body of scientists that believe the universe is eternal?

No, thats not what Im saying. God could have been here all along, He is not physical (i.e. made of atoms) And yes, God is invisible.

The point I was making is that you are not calculating the odds right. If there's a 1 in 1 trillion chance of you reading these words at this moment in history, by your logic, you would say that it's impossible. The problem is with your logic.

No, although I do belive that is rare that would happen, I believe in God and therefore believe there is about a 1:1 chance that This would happen. To a secular scientist, There is about a 1:1,000,000,000 chance this would happen. But you think that there is a 1:1 chance too? ... you said, "there is no randomness in the universe"?

[Gsus_Rawks]

Originally Posted by Qingu

No. The Big Bang is a description of the earliest known point of the universe. It is not "creation from nothing." Not even God does this in the Bible.

There is no such thing as "before the Big Bang." Time did not exist "before the big bang."

In the same way, from your perspective, there is no such thing as "before God," is there?

There is "before God" it was pretty much left undescibed and It was God hanging out for all eternity , to complex for the human mind to fathom.

Time had to exist before the "big bang" When did all the matter in that "swirly period" get there? What made that matter?

Scientists believe the matter/energy in the Big Bang singularity has simply always existed. Since the net energy of the universe is zero, this brings up interesting philosophical questions of what it means to exist in the first place.

Matter cant "always exist" that just doesnt make sense. What keeps it from explosing 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 quadrilian years earlier?

Or does it take all of eternity to finally explode?

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by Gsus_Rawks

No, thats not what Im saying. God could have been here all along, He is not physical (i.e. made of atoms) And yes, God is invisible.

Why do you believe physical things cannot be eternal? Are you aware that matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed? Isn't that the same thing as "eternal"?

No, although I do belive that is rare that would happen, I believe in God and therefore believe there is about a 1:1 chance that This would happen. To a secular scientist, There is about a 1:1,000,000,000 chance this would happen. But you think that there is a 1:1 chance to... you said, "there is no randomness in the universe"?

Yes, this is what I think. Remember how I asked you to prove there is such a thing as randomness or chance? I think the course of the universe is set in stone; "randomness" only exists from our perspective.

There is "before God" it was pretty much left undescibed and It was God hanging out for all eternity , to complex for the human mind to fathom.

So before God there was God?
So there was not actually a "before God." God encompasses time, so you cannot say there's a before God, right? It's like saying something is north of the north pole.

This is what many prominent scientists, such as Stephen Hawking, believe about the universe.

Time had to exist before the "big bang"

No, it really didn't. According to relativity, time and space are part of the same fabric. All of space and all of time were contained in the Big Bang singularity.

When did all the matter in that "swirly period" get there?

It was always there. There was never a point in time when it did not exist. Just like your God.

What made that matter?

The same thing that made your God.

Matter cant "always exist" that just doesnt make sense. What keeps it from explosing 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 quadrilian years earlier?

Can you explain what you are talking about here? Matter exploding? By the way, the Big Bang was 14 billion years ago ... you need to stop adding zeros to your figures

[Gsus_Rawks]

There is this really cool law of physics called angular momentum. There is also another cool law called Inertia.

So if the small rotating speck was rotating counter clockwise, everything in the universe would be going counterclockwise.

Let me explain in this diagram:
The red speck in the middle is the whole universe before the big bang. The blue "planets" are everything in the universe. All would be spinning the same direction. (as you can see if you use your imagionation)

[Silent One]

Originally Posted by Qingu

The Big Bang is a description of the earliest known point of the universe.

First of all, the big bang is not known, its a theory. Or were you there to witness it?

Originally Posted by Qingu

There is no such thing as "before the Big Bang." Time did not exist "before the big bang."

What is time? To me, time began the moment I was born. Before I was born time didn't exist.

Originally Posted by Qingu

In the same way, from your perspective, there is no such thing as "before God," is there?

There is no before God because God always was.

Originally Posted by Qingu

Since the net energy of the universe is zero

I'd love to know how anyone can even try to prove that.