how old is the earth?

Qingu · 10-05-2005, 11:45 PM

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Originally Posted by Gsus_Rawks

Give me a direct verse that says "the earth is flat" or "the sun revolves around the earth"

See post #43 on this thread. (it's on page 3)

Gsus_Rawks · 10-06-2005, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qingu

Also, how many protestants supported heliocentrism? Well, let's look at what certain prominent ones had to say about the subject...

This fool [Copernicus] wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred scripture tells us that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth.
—Martin Luther

Who will venture to place the authority of Copernicus above that of the Holy Spirit?' Do not Scriptures say that Joshua commanded the sun and not the earth to stand still? That the sun runs from one end of the heavens to the other?
—John Calvin

You must concider one thing:

This was during a time period where the geocentric theory was the only theory that was concidered with merit. This was a time where the (corrupt) Roman Catholic Church was extremely corrupt, powerful, rich, and decietful. Most Christians disagee with how the cRCC taught their preachers. You may say, "Martin Luther is not of the cRCC" But he was taught by the cRCC, he was a monk of the cRCC, They taught him this. He didnt think it up himself. Its just like you Quingu, You are taught Evolution, You relay evolution. You didnt think up evolution, you dont know that evolution is totally false...

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You are simply ignorant if you think that the Roman Catholic church was alone in placing the scriptures over science regarding heliocentrism. And you are ignorant if you think creationists are not doing the exact same thing the anti-heliocentrist Christians did regarding evolution.

I totally disagree with that state ment and here is Why:
The Roman Catholic Church was stubborn did not look at acual resonable evidence

The Evolutionary Theory has absolutely no resonable evodence

It is from a very rebellious point of view that you come from

The Bible does not say "God made the Sun revolve around the earth"

The Bible does say "God created the heavens and the earth"

The evolutionary theory has about a 10^26^14 chance of working, without complex life, the other 99.9999999... percent is that of Intelegent Design

Im trailing off so Im stopping

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You will? Then why are you not a geocentrist like Calvin and Luther? After all, the Bible says:

Gen 1:6
And God said, ‘Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.’ So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so. God called the dome Sky.

And God said, ‘Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, and let them be lights in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth.’ And it was so. God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. God set them in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth, to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness.

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The Bible says in plain Hebrew that there is a solid dome (heb. raqia, which literally means "that which is hammered out") that covers the earth. God set the sun, moon, planets and stars in this dome and called it "Sky." There is water above this solid dome as well. Of course, unreliable science contradicts this--let's see if you'll stick with what the Bible says.

I will stick with what the Bible says. For what the bible says, Has proven to be true many times over.

In my image, "A" Is the dome. The dome is the atmosphere. There are two ways I have seen this explained.

The water is that as in the clouds.
The water was to be kept in the upper part of the atmosphere until the flood, then it would be released as rain.

If you would like more depth I will share it later. Im pretty tired and am gonna sleep soon.

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Job 9
he who removes mountains, and they do not know it, when he overturns them in his anger; who shakes the earth out of its place, and its pillars tremble; who commands the sun, and it does not rise; who seals up the stars; who alone stretched out the heavens and trampled the waves of the Sea;

Do you believe the earth has pillars? The Bible says it does, Daniel. Science contradicts it, but who really trusts science?

Im sorry to Hear that you've never heard of a Metaphor...

The Bible is very poetic you know... Just read Psalms...

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Isaiah 40:22
It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;

Do you believe the earth is a "circle," Daniel? Note that the Hebrew word is circle, not sphere or ball. Note also that God stretches out the heavens like a tent--the same raqia which divides the earth below from the waters that Gen 1 says lurk above the sky. Of course, science says the earth is not really flat. But why trust science over God's word, Daniel?

Note that there is no Hebrew word for sphere or ball, Note also that "stretches out the heavens like a tent" That is true, That is an interesting similie. The universe is growing larger as we know it, Rapidly expanding, that is absolutly true.

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So much for believing what the Bible says about the world. Now if anyone would actually like to mount a scientific critique of evolution, or the age of the world (two separate issues), bring it on. If, on the other hand, you would like to continue to assert that the literal Bible trumps science, please address why you do not believe the world is flat and the sun revolves around the earth, like the Bible says it does.

Mabye if the world didnt have bais, We could all learn so much more, both false things and true things.

I totally understand where you are coming from. If I had more faith I'd beleive it too. But personally, I choose to go with an idea that the Earth was created intelegently, just take a look outside!

...

That could be created by chance?!!?

Good nite, its sleep time

Qingu · 10-06-2005, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gsus_Rawks

You must concider one thing:
This was during a time period where the geocentric theory was the only theory that was concidered with merit. This was a time where the (corrupt) Roman Catholic Church was extremely corrupt, powerful, rich, and decietful. Most Christians disagee with how the cRCC taught their preachers. You may say, "Martin Luther is not of the cRCC" But he was taught by the cRCC, he was a monk of the cRCC, They taught him this. He didnt think it up himself. Its just like you Quingu, You are taught Evolution, You relay evolution. You didnt think up evolution, you dont know that evolution is totally false...

You're wrong. Both Protestants and Catholics opposed heliocentrism in equal numbers for a very long time.

The reason both groups opposed heliocentrism is because it contradicts the scriptures.

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I totally disagree with that state ment and here is Why:[list=1][*]The Roman Catholic Church was stubborn did not look at acual resonable evidence

Same with protestants, then and today.

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The Evolutionary Theory has absolutely no resonable evodence

I disagree; so do most Christians and 99% of biologists.

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It is from a very rebellious point of view that you come from

???

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The Bible does not say "God made the Sun revolve around the earth"

It says God stopped the sun and the moon in mid-heaven (Josh 10). It says God set the sun, the moon, and the stars in the dome of the sky (Gen 1), above which there is water.

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The Bible does say "God created the heavens and the earth"

Yes, and it details how he creates them, which is exactly the same way they are created in many Mesopotamian mythologies with a flat earth and a sun that moves accross a solid dome-sky.

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The evolutionary theory has about a 10^26^14 chance of working, without complex life, the other 99.9999999... percent is that of Intelegent Design
Im trailing off so Im stopping

I'll take the second sentence as a justification for the nonsense of the first.

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I will stick with what the Bible says. For what the bible says, Has proven to be true many times over.

Really? Show me the raqia. Show me the water above the stars that are set in the raqia. It seems the space shuttles would have encountered some trouble flying to the moon.

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In my image, "A" Is the dome. The dome is the atmosphere. There are two ways I have seen this explained.

The water is that as in the clouds.
The water was to be kept in the upper part of the atmosphere until the flood, then it would be released as rain.

This contradicts the Bible. The word "raqia" (translated as "dome") denotes a solid object. We know it's solid because God makes it to keep the waters above it from falling to earth. This is what happens int he flood, after all—God opens the windows in this raqia.

The problem is that the Bible also says God puts the sun, moon, planets and stars INSIDE the raqia. (This was a very common belief in the Hebrews' day).

Also, i'm curious as to why you are calling a sphere (the sky is a sphere that encompasses the earth) a dome.

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If you would like more depth I will share it later. Im pretty tired and am gonna sleep soon.

I would. Explain where the stars, sun, moon and planets are in relation to the waters that are above the raqia.

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Im sorry to Hear that you've never heard of a Metaphor...

The Bible is very poetic you know... Just read Psalms...

You think the pillars are metaphorical? Why? Perhaps the 7 days in Genesis are metaphorical. Genesis is also poetic.

Perhaps Jesus' resurrection is metaphorical.

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Note that there is no Hebrew word for sphere or ball,

duwr
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_d...0494-5960.html

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Note also that "stretches out the heavens like a tent" That is true, That is an interesting similie. The universe is growing larger as we know it, Rapidly expanding, that is absolutly true.

Except that "heavens" (shamayam) is simply what God calls the raqia (the sky). Heavens=sky; it's the same Hebrew word.

Tents, like domes, have flat bottoms and are indeed held up by pillars. Do you believe the world is flat? Apparently the Hebrews did.

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Mabye if the world didnt have bais, We could all learn so much more, both false things and true things.

I totally understand where you are coming from. If I had more faith I'd beleive it too. But personally, I choose to go with an idea that the Earth was created intelegently, just take a look outside!

*looks outside, has difficulty looking past my blind spot, wonders why an "intelligent designer" would design the human eye so poorly*

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That could be created by chance?!!?

Are you sure there's such a thing as chance/randomness? Mathematicians have spent years trying to prove there's such a thing, and have repeatedly failed.

Gsus_Rawks · 10-06-2005, 03:19 PM

Roll a dice ... 10 billion times.

If every time you land on a 6, you have convinced me, Ill become an evolutionist.

Or if within one hour, a tornado sweeps through a junk yard and constructs a working boing 747 out of scrap metal.

Or if you shoot an arrow, the wind takes it all the way around the earth, and it hits the bullseye right in the middle

Ill become an evolutionist.

Its just I'm not into basing my beliefs on that kind of a chance. Especially when the slopes are as steep as hell.

Alright. Im done.

Gsus_Rawks · 10-06-2005, 03:20 PM

And also, If evolution did create a cell, what makes you think it would be a living cell? Wouldn't it be a dead cell?

Why would it be living? Does it drink some sort of potion?

Qingu · 10-06-2005, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gsus_Rawks

Its just I'm not into basing my beliefs on that kind of a chance. Especially when the slopes are as steep as hell.

Ah. Well, you'll be glad to learn that, contrary to what uneducated creationists often claim, evolution is not based on random chance.

So would you care to explain why you believe the earth revolves around the sun?

Qingu · 10-06-2005, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gsus_Rawks

And also, If evolution did create a cell, what makes you think it would be a living cell? Wouldn't it be a dead cell?

Why would it be living? Does it drink some sort of potion?

You're not even talking about evolution now. Evolution does not deal with the emergence of life from non-life. That would be abiogenesis, which is a hypothesis, not a proven theory.

That said, define "living." Are viruses alive? What about protein strands?

Gsus_Rawks · 10-06-2005, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qingu

Are you sure there's such a thing as chance/randomness? Mathematicians have spent years trying to prove there's such a thing, and have repeatedly failed.

Wow! I’m really an extremely brilliant mathematician/scientist!?!

(Chances of planets spinning different directions, chances that all the material in the universe could just be here... etc are not discussed, for it is impossible...)

The chances that a habitable earth could exist are 1/1,000,000,000
(The star is the right type, size, and brightness, heat. The planet is the right size that it isn’t locked in orbit with one side constantly facing the sun. The planet isn’t too far away or too close. That the atmosphere is mostly composed of oxygen and nitrogen, not carbon is necessary. The moon stables our axis. The planet has mostly water on the surface... the list is ever growing.)

The chances that there could be a working (dead) cell are 10^100^10 (1 with 1,000 zeros after it) (assuming that there would be random readable data, in a strand long enough to reach to the moon and back, full of vital information that is necessary for life)

(The chances that the cell could be alive instead of dead, I don’t even know how to calculate)

The chances that a cell could be able to change from mitosis to meiosis isn’t that rare (compared to the other chances)

The chances that there could both be a male and a female made in the same lifetime that were both capable of meiosis and knew how to undergo sexual intercourse to transfer the sperm to the female and then the female storing the fetus inside its womb until it was time for the birth of the new baby, and that baby being able to do the same process is 1/10^10,000^10 (1 with 1million zeros after it)

The chances that they could undergo macro evolution to an extent that a simple, single celled organism with no nucleus could turn into a complex human in a matter of 4 billion years is 1/10^10,000,000^10 (one with 1billion zeros after it)

The chances that the human would still have food to eat, after billions of years, (assuming that there was food for the mitochondria) is common, about 1/100

The chances that humans could have a moral standard (therefore the first humans wouldn’t kill each other is impossible...) that cant be written into made up genes could it?

Considering i have been fairly relaxed about my stats, not ruling out "impossibilities"

The chances that a cell could come about by itself, in a habitable place, with usual, unexplainable phenomenas all over the place considering some unmentioned necessities is about 1/10^10,000,000,000^10,000,000,000,000,000

(Writing a few million zeros a second it would take a few trillion years just to write the number down)
I don’t know if its just me, but I cant believe something like that!

OK. Im done

Gsus_Rawks · 10-06-2005, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qingu

So would you care to explain why you believe the earth revolves around the sun?

Sure... because God made it that way. Im a creationist yuh know.

Gsus_Rawks · 10-06-2005, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qingu

That said, define "living." Are viruses alive? What about protein strands?

Living is being capable to make desicions, to think. Am i going to sit here and type? am i going to walk to the store?

Virusus cannot think, protien strands cannot think...

life is a complex phenomena that God created, it could not come about by itself

Qingu · 10-06-2005, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gsus_Rawks

Living is being capable to make desicions, to think. Am i going to sit here and type? am i going to walk to the store?

Virusus cannot think, protien strands cannot think...

Thinking requires a brain. Many animals do not have a brain, not to mention all plants, fungi, protists, eubacteria and archaeabacteria.

Are you seirously saying the only things that are alive are animals with a brain? (What about starfish? They don't have a brain but they have a rudimentary nervous system)

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life is a complex phenomena that God created, it could not come about by itself

Okay, what does this have to do with (1) evolution, or (2) the topic of this thread (the age of the earth)?

Qingu · 10-06-2005, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gsus_Rawks

Sure... because God made it that way. Im a creationist yuh know.

But the Bible says God made it the other way. Would you care to explain further why you believe something that appears to be contrary to the word of God? I notice you've not responded to most of my points about Biblical geocentrism.