[goldenchild]

Because I so often get this question... This is from a Catechism book based on the Baltimore Catechism. It spells it out very clearly. I am putting this here because I myself do not fully understand how the whole thing works so I do not have any intention of debating it. I am putting this here just because so many people often ask me what this teaching means. I put this hear not to disrespect anyone or their faith in Jesus. I put this here not to make myself look better than any of you. I just realize that I have been asked this question so many times, and I think I have found a simple, accurate, concise answer to the question.



Do we condemn all non-Catholics to hell by this doctrine?

_________________________

From "My Catholic Faith - A Catechism in Pictures" by Most Reverend Louis LaRavoire Morrow S.T.D. Bishop of Krishnagar.

What do we mean when we say, "Outside the Church there is no salvation?"

When we say, "Outside the Church there is no salvation", we mean that those who through their own grave fault do not know that the Catholic Church is the true Church, or knowing it, refuse to join it, cannot be saved.

1. All are obliged to belong to the Catholic Church in order to be saved. Christ said: "Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).

The Catholic Church is founded on the Apostles, to whom Our Lord gave the commission to baptize; by Baptism one is made a member of the Church. If then Baptism is indispensable, the Church must be indispensable.

2. Christ did not die for a part of, but for all mankind. He did not leave His legacy the Church for the benefit of a few, but for all. Our Lord said: "He who hears you hears me; and he who rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16).

Since God commanded all to be members of His Church, those who deliberately disobey His command will not be saved. Whoever, through his own fault, reamins outside the Catholic CHurch, will be lost eternally.

3. One who, knowing the Catholic Church to be the true one, leaves it or does not join it because he wants to make a good marriage, to advance his business, or for some other worldly motive, will not be saved. He is a willful and malicious unbeliever.

One who leaves the Church or does not enter it because of human respect, or because its doctrines require personal sacrifices, will not be saved. One who belongs to another church and has doubts about the truth or falsity of his own church, but takes no pains to find out the truth will not be saved. "If you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sin."

. . .

Can they be saved who remain outside the Catholic Church because the do not know it is the true Church?

They who remain outside the Catholic Church through no grave fault of their own, and do not know it is the true Church, can be saved by making use of the graces which God gives them.

1. God condemns no man except for grave sin. Therefore He will not condemn those who through no fault of their own are unaware of His command to belong to the True Church, provided they serve Him faithfully according to their conscience, have a sincere desire to do His will in all things, and therefore implicitly wish to become members of His Church. They are members of the Church, in desire. A baptized Protestant, of Protestant parents, lives all his life a Protestant without ever having a doubt that he is in the wrong. Before death he makes an act of perfect contrition for the sins he has committed. SUch a man will be saved, for he dies in the state of grace.

2. It is possible for one that has never even heard of Jesus Christ to be saved, for God "wishes all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth" (1 Tim 2:4) and "Christ died for all" (2 Cor. 5:15). In order that such a one may be saved, it is required that he observe the natural law; with the help of God, everyone having the use of reason can do that.

Whoever then obeys the natural law will be enlightened by God, at some time in his life, with the grace with which he can make an act of Divine faith. If he makes good use of this grace and firmly believes whatever God has revealed, he will recieve the further graces with which he can make the acts of hope, repentance, and charity that must precede before God will bestow on his soul sanctifying grace, with which he can merit eternal life.

3. The fact that it is possible for those outside the Church to be saved should not make us lose sight of the great disadvantages they are under, as compared with Catholics who live in the full light of Divine revelation. Such persons have not the infallible Church to guide them in what they are to believe and do in order to serve God. They have to live without the Sacraments, Holy Mass, and Holy Communion, and the other countless sources of Grace which the Church supplies for the sanctification of its children, those professed Catholics who are members of the body of the visible Church.

These disadvantages should make us Catholics realize more fully the many reasons we have for humbly thanking God for the priceless blessings we have recieved without any claim or merit of our own. They should also spur us on to give Him a more worthy service, and help spread our Faith.

[Insane Drummer]

I see nothing on here about those who do not believe that the Catholic Church is one true church.

That is really what I am interested in hearing. I know that the Catholic Church is said to be the one true church, but I do not believe it. Would that not place me under "Since God commanded all to be members of His Church, those who deliberately disobey His command will not be saved. Whoever, through his own fault, reamins outside the Catholic CHurch, will be lost eternally."

[Malachi_718]

To tell you the truth, the Catholic church appears to be a load of crap to me, the casual observer. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Jesus died, was the veil not torn? This is no trivial detail. When Christ died, he opened a direct link of man to God. When this happened, the church, although still important was no longer needed in order for us to repent of sins or become Christians. One of the commandments does indeed tell us to attend church regularly, but there will come a time when Christians won't be able to openly attend church. Does this mean all of these Christians will go to Hell? No, but there walk will be ten times more difficult without the fellowship of like-minded believers.

I guess the point is that, the church is just another tool of God. As was Moses, as was Mary, as were the Apostles; none of the above listed things are to be worshipped. There is salvation outside the church, because all you need to get you into Heaven is Jesus. I haven't ever seen any Biblical evidence that has made me doubt for a second this truth.

I hope no one's angry, but if you are, well, that's okay.

In Christ,
--Mali

[goldenchild]

Originally Posted by Insane Drummer

I see nothing on here about those who do not believe that the Catholic Church is one true church.

That is really what I am interested in hearing. I know that the Catholic Church is said to be the one true church, but I do not believe it. Would that not place me under "Since God commanded all to be members of His Church, those who deliberately disobey His command will not be saved. Whoever, through his own fault, reamins outside the Catholic CHurch, will be lost eternally."

You know that the Catholic Church "claims" to be the one true Church, but you don't believe it really to be. If you are in complete 100% satisfaction that the denomination you are in right now has the fullness of all truth and you live holy the rest of your life and make a perfect act of contrition before death then it seems you can be saved. I do not know you're background so it seems you are the only one who would know what applies to you here.

If you have any doubts that your particular denomination is the one true Church then you must do your best to seek out the truth no matter where that might take you. If you think your Church does not have the fullness of truth, but do not try to find the truth, then it seems you might not be saved.

If you believe with your whole heart that you are now in the one true Church and you were validly baptised in a Christian Church(whole nuther discussion ) then it seems that you are doing your best to fulfill God's command to be in the One True Church, whether you really fulfill it or not is a different matter.

I don't know if you were ever Catholic or not, but that would also shed new light on the situation.

[goldenchild]

Originally Posted by Malachi_718

To tell you the truth, the Catholic church appears to be a load of crap to me,

Ditto any other religion for me.

Originally Posted by Malachi_718

the casual observer. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Jesus died, was the veil not torn? This is no trivial detail. When Christ died, he opened a direct link of man to God.

Amen. This is true.

Originally Posted by Malachi_718

When this happened, the church, although still important was no longer needed in order for us to repent of sins or become Christians.

I totally disagree with this conclusion. It makes no sense to me. God set His Old Testament covenant up with a man a specific people. And I believe God continued to set up His New Covenant(New Testament) with a new Man and a new people.

Originally Posted by Malachi_718

One of the commandments does indeed tell us to attend church regularly,

Actually all it says is to keep holy the sabbath, nothing said about going to Church. But I do believe one must go to Church to keep it holy.

Originally Posted by Malachi_718

but there will come a time when Christians won't be able to openly attend church.

In the first years of the Church the Christians went through great persecutions and were put to death for their beliefs. This is a bad reason to not go to Church. In China it is illegal to be Catholic(maybe Christian to I think) but they go underground to fulfill their belief and risk serious trouble with the government.

Originally Posted by Malachi_718

Does this mean all of these Christians will go to Hell?

I'm not sure. But God has set His commandments and we are required to follow them regardless of what the government tells us.

Originally Posted by Malachi_718

No, but there walk will be ten times more difficult without the fellowship of like-minded believers.

Sure. This doesn't mean that we can just abandon God and His commandments because the government tells us to.

Originally Posted by Malachi_718

I guess the point is that, the church is just another tool of God. As was Moses, as was Mary, as were the Apostles; none of the above listed things are to be worshipped.

None of the things above are to be worshipped. No one but God alone is to be worshipped. This does not mean that God doesn't use means for giving us His grace. As in the Old Testament where God's people were brought into the covenant through circumcision, so to today are people brought into God's new Covenant through baptism. We are still required to follow everything God tells us.

Originally Posted by Malachi_718

There is salvation outside the church, because all you need to get you into Heaven is Jesus. I haven't ever seen any Biblical evidence that has made me doubt for a second this truth.

Maybe you should take another look at Scripture then .

And yes all we needed was Jesus. He is the only thing that makes it possible. So since God gave up His son for us, the least we can do(and need to do) is obey everything He asks of us in return. This is the very least we can do. Christ commanded us to take up our cross and follow Him. Is our cross a nice one? An easy one? No. But with Christ's help we can always obey God no matter what He asks. Remember Abraham who was willing to kill his own son simply because God asked him to.

Originally Posted by Malachi_718

I hope no one's angry, but if you are, well, that's okay.

In Christ,
--Mali

Nope, not angry in the slightest. Have a nice day.

[goldenchild]

P.S. This Catholic forum is not for debating as I remember. This thread is really just an informational one. If anyone has any clarifying questions, like Insane_Drummer did then that's okay. I'll be here to answer any questions about this.

[Insane Drummer]

Originally Posted by goldenchild

You know that the Catholic Church "claims" to be the one true Church, but you don't believe it really to be. If you are in complete 100% satisfaction that the denomination you are in right now has the fullness of all truth and you live holy the rest of your life and make a perfect act of contrition before death then it seems you can be saved. I do not know you're background so it seems you are the only one who would know what applies to you here.

Define, pardon my ignorance, "perfect act of contrition". Also, what if I am of the belief that no single man-made denomination can posses 100% of the truth. I believe my denomination and my church are both, most likely, at fault in some belief. I believe that I myself am at fault in some belief. I do not claim to posses 100% of the truth, I claim to follow the truth as best I understand until proven otherwise by the scripture.

If you have any doubts that your particular denomination is the one true Church then you must do your best to seek out the truth no matter where that might take you. If you think your Church does not have the fullness of truth, but do not try to find the truth, then it seems you might not be saved.

As it is right now, I believe the church I am in has it right as far as I can tell. Although, within this church and denomination there are those I disagree with. But as a whole, I would say they pretty much have what matters right.

If you believe with your whole heart that you are now in the one true Church and you were validly baptised in a Christian Church(whole nuther discussion ) then it seems that you are doing your best to fulfill God's command to be in the One True Church, whether you really fulfill it or not is a different matter.

I would like to know what constitues a valid baptism, if it isn't much touble, I would understand if you wouldn't want to go into it in this thread.

I don't know if you were ever Catholic or not, but that would also shed new light on the situation.

No, I never have been Catholic.

[goldenchild]

Originally Posted by Insane Drummer

Define, pardon my ignorance, "perfect act of contrition".

100% sorrow for any and all sins you have committed. Disgust at the evil that one has done and 100% commitment to(if you were to live longer) sin no more and avoid the occasion of evil. Making an act of contrition not just because you're afraid of going to hell, but because you truly hate the sins you committed and because you know you have offended God who is worthy of all our love.

That's it in a nutshell. You'll know if you're really sorry for what you did, no one can ever judge that. The Catholic also has a good prayer for an act of contrition that can be done at any time. A Protestant I believe can say this prayer without any confliction in their faith as far as I know. Maybe I'm mistaken.

ACT OF CONTRITION 1

O MY GOD, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins because I dread the loss of Heaven and the pains of Hell; but most of all because they offend Thee, my God, Who art all-good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to sin no more, to do penance, and to amend my life. Amen.

AN ACT OF CONTRITION VERSION 2

Forgive me my sins, O Lord, forgive me my sins;
the sins of my youth, the sins of my age, the sins of my soul,
the sins of my body; my idle sins, my serious voluntary sins;
the sins I know, the sins I do not know; the sins I have concealed
for so long, and which are now hidden from my memory.

I am truly sorry for every sin, mortal and venial,
for all the sins of my childhood up to the present hour.

I know my sins have wounded Thy Tender Heart,
O My Savior, let me be freed from the bonds of evil through
the most bitter Passion of My Redeemer. Amen.

O My Jesus, forget and forgive what I have been. Amen.

The second one refers to mortal and venial sin which the Protestant probably doesn't believe in. But one can amend these words to fit their beliefs. These are just common written contritions.

Originally Posted by Insane Drummer

Also, what if I am of the belief that no single man-made denomination can posses 100% of the truth. I believe my denomination and my church are both, most likely, at fault in some belief. I believe that I myself am at fault in some belief. I do not claim to posses 100% of the truth, I claim to follow the truth as best I understand until proven otherwise by the scripture.

This I'd have to check into a bit more as it wasn't specifically addressed in the section I gave above.

Originally Posted by Insane Drummer

As it is right now, I believe the church I am in has it right as far as I can tell. Although, within this church and denomination there are those I disagree with. But as a whole, I would say they pretty much have what matters right.

Again I'll have to check on those who don't believe any Church has the whole Church.

Originally Posted by Insane Drummer

I would like to know what constitues a valid baptism, if it isn't much touble, I would understand if you wouldn't want to go into it in this thread.

There are often a lot of prayers that go with it. But as far as I know(I'll say something later if I find I am wrong) all that is needed to make a valid baptism is water poured, sprinkled, dunked while crossing the person in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Originally Posted by Insane Drummer

No, I never have been Catholic.

You're missing out bro

[goldenchild]

Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430): "No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church." (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem)

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Originally Posted by goldenchild

That's it in a nutshell. You'll know if you're really sorry for what you did, no one can ever judge that. The Catholic also has a good prayer for an act of contrition that can be done at any time. A Protestant I believe can say this prayer without any confliction in their faith as far as I know. Maybe I'm mistaken.

I think most Protestants would have some conflict with those prayers, I know I do and would not pray either of them personally.

[rheo]

I don't think that the prayer itself bothers me, though I didn't pick it apart. I think what bothers me is that it is a kind of formula. While I understand that many prayer books can be helpful, and some are quite beautiful, I do not believe that they would help my relationship with Christ progress, but rather regress. When I pray, and chat with God, I have to be completely myself. I think He wants me to be honest with Him, and I think He wants to hear me. Jesus abolished a lot of things on the cross, and a lot of what He got rid of was so that I could talk to Him without it being a complete ritual.

[goldenchild]

Originally Posted by KFBobInsanesMom

I think most Protestants would have some conflict with those prayers, I know I do and would not pray either of them personally.

Okay well sorry. I don't see why but that's up to you. I'd be interested in a learning pov to see what problems you have with the first one. Wait, I forgot many Protestants don't believe sin are counted in a real Christian.... Is this correct?

If so, then there's no need for one to make an act of contrition for sin. Therefore, one may not get into heaven because of this...

[Insane Drummer]

Originally Posted by goldenchild

Okay well sorry. I don't see why but that's up to you. I'd be interested in a learning pov to see what problems you have with the first one. Wait, I forgot many Protestants don't believe sin are counted in a real Christian.... Is this correct?

If so, then there's no need for one to make an act of contrition for sin. Therefore, one may not get into heaven because of this...

Psalm 130:3 "If You, Lord, should mark iniquities, O Lord, who could stand?"

Romans8:33-34 "Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. "

Philippians 1:3 "being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ"

Salvation/forgivness is not based on human actions, it is based on Christ. An act of contrition is not required because it is not of us to keep our salvation.

At least that would be this protestants view...

[goldenchild]

Originally Posted by Insane Drummer

Salvation/forgivness is not based on human actions, it is based on Christ. An act of contrition is not required because it is not of us to keep our salvation.

At least that would be this protestants view...

Okay. I see it differently, but this isn't a debate board here and I'm not sure I'll have the time for such a discussion what with school coming up next week and all.

[KFBobInsanesMom]

Originally Posted by goldenchild

Okay well sorry. I don't see why but that's up to you. I'd be interested in a learning pov to see what problems you have with the first one. Wait, I forgot many Protestants don't believe sin are counted in a real Christian.... Is this correct?

If so, then there's no need for one to make an act of contrition for sin. Therefore, one may not get into heaven because of this...

My salvation is sure and I no longer " dread the loss of Heaven and the pains of Hell" . For me to pray this would go against my belief that it is God who secures my salvation, not me.

I do acknowledge and ask forgiveness for my sins. However, my sins were all covered with Christ's blood and I have no fear of not getting in to Heaven even when I do sin. We are to forgive and to ask forgiveness, these things I try to do, though I often fail.