What is Paul referencing?

Godreignsoveral · 08-05-2005, 01:04 PM

In Romans 3, verses 10-18, Paul, as we all know, declares all fallen and sinful. But in that, he says... "As it is written"... etc. The only two references I've found to what he's supposedly reffering to are Psalm 14 and 53. Now I think I've slightly pondered this in times past, but I don't understand how Paul can be referencing these passages as his proof text. These two Psalms don't indict everyone under such condemnation. Now, I'm not here to debate whether we've all gone astray. I don't disagree with that at all. What I'd like to know is either A) How to better understand these Psalms if that is, in fact, what Paul was referencing or B) Know what passages Paul is more likely referencing and to see the true support for his claim. Any thoughts or comments from you all will be greatly appreciated.

Mark

**+Donny** · 08-05-2005, 01:37 PM

I actually tend to think that his point is that both Gentiles and Jews are under sin. While I certainly do acknowledge that all people have sinned, his point, contextually, is about Jews and Gentiles.

Godreignsoveral · 08-05-2005, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by +Donny

I actually tend to think that his point is that both Gentiles and Jews are under sin. While I certainly do acknowledge that all people have sinned, his point, contextually, is about Jews and Gentiles.

Good point... but that doesn't tell me what he's referencing as he says, "As it is written"... could you share your opinion on that?

Mark

**Ted Logan** · 08-05-2005, 02:02 PM

Here's what I found by looking at John Gill's commentary on Romans 3:

Psa 14:1 To the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.
Psa 14:3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.

Psa 5:9 For there is no truth in their mouth; their inmost self is destruction; their throat is an open grave; they flatter with their tongue.

Psa 140:3 They make their tongue sharp as a serpent's, and under their lips is the venom of asps. Selah.

Psa 10:7 His mouth is filled with cursing and deceit and oppression; under his tongue are mischief and iniquity.

Isa 59:7 Their feet run to evil, and they are swift to shed innocent blood; their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; desolation and destruction are in their highways.
Isa 59:8 The way of peace they do not know, and there is no justice in their paths; they have made their roads crooked; no one who treads on them knows peace.

Psa 36:1 To the choirmaster. Of David, the servant of the LORD. Transgression speaks to the wicked deep in his heart; there is no fear of God before his eyes.

**+Donny** · 08-05-2005, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godreignsoveral

Good point... but that doesn't tell me what he's referencing as he says, "As it is written"... could you share your opinion on that?

Mark

I always took it to mainly be referencing Psalm 14.

Godreignsoveral · 08-05-2005, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron Adams

Here's what I found by looking at John Gill's commentary on Romans 3:

Psa 14:1 To the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.
Psa 14:3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.

Psa 5:9 For there is no truth in their mouth; their inmost self is destruction; their throat is an open grave; they flatter with their tongue.

Psa 140:3 They make their tongue sharp as a serpent's, and under their lips is the venom of asps. Selah.

Psa 10:7 His mouth is filled with cursing and deceit and oppression; under his tongue are mischief and iniquity.

Isa 59:7 Their feet run to evil, and they are swift to shed innocent blood; their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; desolation and destruction are in their highways.
Isa 59:8 The way of peace they do not know, and there is no justice in their paths; they have made their roads crooked; no one who treads on them knows peace.

Psa 36:1 To the choirmaster. Of David, the servant of the LORD. Transgression speaks to the wicked deep in his heart; there is no fear of God before his eyes.

Psa 14:1 To the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.
Psa 14:3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.

Refers to the foolish in contrast to God’s people, not every single person or even an implied Jews & Gentiles coverage.

Psa 5:9 For there is no truth in their mouth; their inmost self is destruction; their throat is an open grave; they flatter with their tongue.

Refers to the foolish in contrast to David and all those that put their trust in Him, not every single person or even an implied Jews & Gentiles coverage.

Psa 140:3 They make their tongue sharp as a serpent's, and under their lips is the venom of asps. Selah.

Refers to the evil and violent man in contrast to David, the afflicted, the poor, the righteous, and the upright, not every single person or even an implied Jews & Gentiles coverage.

Psa 10:7 His mouth is filled with cursing and deceit and oppression; under his tongue are mischief and iniquity.

Refers to the wicked in contrast to the poor, the innocent, the humble, the helper of the fatherless, and the oppressed, not every single person or even an implied Jews & Gentiles coverage.

Isa 59:7 Their feet run to evil, and they are swift to shed innocent blood; their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; desolation and destruction are in their highways.
Isa 59:8 The way of peace they do not know, and there is no justice in their paths; they have made their roads crooked; no one who treads on them knows peace.

May well refer to everyone… except Isaiah right? Is he including himself in this description of what the people were then presently doing? Sounds to me like this doesn't cover every single person or even an implied Jews & Gentiles coverage.

Psa 36:1 To the choirmaster. Of David, the servant of the LORD. Transgression speaks to the wicked deep in his heart; there is no fear of God before his eyes.

Though this may well speak about the wicked, it doesn’t indicate any sure support that all are wicked.

This returns me to my original question(s). If these are the verses he’s referencing, how on earth do they support what he’s saying “as it is written”… if these are not the verses he’s referencing, what are the verses that support his claim and he is referencing?

Mark

Godreignsoveral · 08-05-2005, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by +Donny

I always took it to mainly be referencing Psalm 14.

If so, then how does that Psalm chapter support all as in Jews and Gentiles or all as in all of humanity when it contrasts the foolish to God's people? Though Romans may well cover it, this chapter's "all" can't mean absolute all when that "all" comes against God's people.

Mark

**+Donny** · 08-05-2005, 04:41 PM

You have to look at the subject of those condemnations. I think Paul is referencing them as comments against Jews. Wpersecuted David? Who is Isaiah 59 written about? Jews.

Godreignsoveral · 08-05-2005, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by +Donny

You have to look at the subject of those condemnations. I think Paul is referencing them as comments against Jews. Wpersecuted David? Who is Isaiah 59 written about? Jews.

*tilts head* ...oooh. Now that could make a lot of sense in the argument. Gone to think on it... thanks a lot +Donny.

Mark

thessalonian · 08-05-2005, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by +Donny

I actually tend to think that his point is that both Gentiles and Jews are under sin. While I certainly do acknowledge that all people have sinned, his point, contextually, is about Jews and Gentiles.

Who else is there besides Jews and Gentiles?

Godreignsoveral · 08-05-2005, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thessalonian

Who else is there besides Jews and Gentiles?

I think his point was that Paul, in this context, was not proving that every single human being sinned, but only that both Jews and Gentiles have sinned. Do you see?

Mark

Godreignsoveral · 08-05-2005, 04:58 PM

Or should I say, more specifically, he's backing up his thought that all have sinned by, here specifically, proving that Jews are sinners too.

Mark

thessalonian · 08-05-2005, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godreignsoveral

I think his point was that Paul, in this context, was not proving that every single human being sinned, but only that both Jews and Gentiles have sinned. Do you see?

Mark

How can Jew and Gentile not be all? No perhaps I don't.

Godreignsoveral · 08-05-2005, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thessalonian

How can Jew and Gentile not be all? No perhaps I don't.

Okay, I'll leave it to him to better expound... I'm a bit distracting by looking at these particular psalms from another angle.

Mark

**+Donny** · 08-05-2005, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thessalonian

How can Jew and Gentile not be all? No perhaps I don't.

Paul is not trying necessarily to say that every single Jew and every single Gentile is evil. What he is saying is that the Jews, as a group, just like the Gentiles, are under sin. He was combatting the idea that the Judaizers by showing that Jews, like the Gentiles, deserved death and needed redemption. He is speaking corporately, not exhaustively. So, while the groups Jew and Gentile cover everyone, He isn't talking about every individual, but the two groups in question. He is combatting a corporate heresy with corporate theology.