[Lightknight]

I have compiled my studies and comments on alcohol into one summarized post. I'd like to know what you guys and gals think.

I am constantly confronted with people who think that any amount of alcoholic consumption is bad. Many denominations teach this as well. Hearing such a thing is becoming quite a thorn at my side because they are clearly calling Christ a sinner. Grape juice (unfermented wine) wasn't even created until the late 1800's. That's nearly two millenia since Christ walked this earth.

"1869 Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch, a physician and dentist by profession, successfully pasteurizes Concord grape juice to produce an "unfermented sacramental wine" for fellow parishioners at his church in Vineland, N.J., where he is communion steward. His achievement marks the beginning of the processed fruit juice industry."

So just based off of historical evidence alone, we can note that Jesus not only drank fermented wine, but served it to others. The belief in prohibition was started sternly, it seems, a generation after the production of grape juice. Where people could begin to argue out of ignorance that Jesus was not drinking fermented wine but grape juice instead (the fact that unfermented wine hadn't been around long enough not occuring to them since they had had it all their lives)

But let's not stop at just historical evidence, let's lean heavily on scripture.

Matthew 11:18-19 is a prime example.

Mat 11:18 "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!'
Mat 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."

Here it states that Jesus drank alcohol. It is quite clear as it correlates him drinking with people calling him a drunkard for it. It also uses the part where it says that John didn't eat or drink. This of course means that he didn't eat to excess and that he didnt' drink alcohol. Since not drinking anything would mean death from dehydration. So it wouldn't make sense just to say that he wasn't drinking anything. But that this is specifically refering to alcohol.

The next major scriptural arguement that prohibitionists take is pertaining to the greek and hebrew. Claiming that it really means unfermented wine, however, those people clearly do not know either language. Allow me to demonstrate. The believe that "Oinos" and "gleukos" are both only refering to unfermened wine.

Pro 9:5 Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine [which] I have mingled.

The Hebrew word there is yayin. Which comes from a root meaning to effervesce (form bubbles). It is obviously fermented wine and nothing else.

Pro 23:30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

Yayin is used here as well. (Just in case there was any doubt that Yayin means fermented wine)

Pro 20:1 Wine [is] a mocker, strong drink [is] raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Here is a command to give wine (yayin) to certain people at least. (Just in case there was any doubt that Yayin means fermented wine)

Pro 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

Yayin again appears here. And it isn't a bad thing here. It is something that the righteous are told to do. I'd like to see someone explain that away.

Ecc 9:7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.

and again,

Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

Now, for the big kicker. The word OINOS in Greek for wine. It is a rare instance in which a greek work is derived solely from the Hebrew word (that's right, it's a greek word that is Hebrew in origin) YAYIN. Which we have already established is fermented wine by definition. So Oinos is refering to fermented wine alone.

Why is this important?

Jhn 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew; ) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,Jhn 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: [but] thou hast kept the good wine until now.

Oinos is used every time here. If you don't recognize the reference, it's from the wedding where Jesus turned water into wine. To call fermented wine sinful would be to say that Jesus sinned here and led others into sin.

Another occasion of wine in the New Testament is the word Gleukos. Since this is the word that "glucos/sugar" is derived from today, many of the prohibitionists jump on this word as meaning unfermented. Since it refers to "new wine" or "sweet wine". The Bible clearly teaches otherwise in context however.

Act 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

New Wine is "gleukos" in the greek. The word that people assume means unfermented. However, look at that verse and Peter's response to their comment.

Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day.

So even though they say "new wine", it is still fermented.

Now, this all being established that drinking alcohol is not sinful, remember these two things.

Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Do not drink to excess, or get yourself drunk in otherwords. That is spoken against biblically.

Also, be careful who you drink around.

Rom 14:21 [It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Aside from these two points, there is nothing wrong with wine. I would appreciate responses to this.

[s0233425]

Amen. I concur. Our Youth group did a study on this a while back and found the same conclusions. That it wasn't a sin to drink alchohol, so long as we weren't getting drunk.

[SmileAndFollow]

I agree. Thank you for laying it out with verses and all. I have always thought this argument was a bit rediculous. Ive had people tell me that drinking, even the slightest bit, effects you and takes your focus off God and that makes it a sin. These people have obviously never experienced or observed controlled drinking. It is a blessing to enjoy a beer after a long days work. It is a blessing to share a drink with friends at a barbeque or watching a game, just dont over do it.

[+Donny]

Originally Posted by SmileAndFollow

I agree. Thank you for laying it out with verses and all. I have always thought this argument was a bit rediculous. Ive had people tell me that drinking, even the slightest bit, effects you and takes your focus off God and that makes it a sin. These people have obviously never experienced or observed controlled drinking. It is a blessing to enjoy a beer after a long days work. It is a blessing to share a drink with friends at a barbeque or watching a game, just dont over do it.

And make sure it's not Fosters. That stuff is horrible.

[BobbyB]

I agree with you guys.

Drinking in itself is not a sin. The results of drinking are. My dad was an alcoholic. I used to drink but don't anymore. I don't know too many people who don't take drinking too far. You usally cross the line before you know you are approaching it. Drinking is not something I want my family to think is ok.

God Bless,
Bobby

[nightowl10175]

1Ti 3:3
1Co 5:11
1Co 6:10


There are many other scriptures besides these that say a drunkard will go to hell, so its obvious if we drink to get drunk its a sin. The reason, I don't think its right, or even profitable [1Co 6:12] to drink alcohol is because of this scripture in Romans

Rom 14:21 It is best not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything else that causes problems for other followers of the Lord.


I may not be an alcoholic, but there are followers of Jesus that used to be, and I know that all it would take is one drink, and they're back where they started, especially new converts. If they see you drinking, chances are they will think they have enough control to drink and not get drunk too. I wouldn't want to be the reason someone else sins.

Its is also the call of the Lord to go out and preach the gospel [Mark 16:15] Whats it going to look like when you go up to the drunkard down the street with a beer in your hand trying to tell him about the love of God and how he is living in sin? Hes gonna think you're just another hypocrite christian. Aren't we called to be the light of the world? Not just sit in the darkness and blend in with everyone else? We should be preaching at the bars not drinking in them! (IMO)


Oh and thanks for the thing about Grape Juice.


Valerie

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by nightowl10175

1Ti 3:3
1Co 5:11
1Co 6:10


There are many other scriptures besides these that say a drunkard will go to hell, so its obvious if we drink to get drunk its a sin. The reason, I don't think its right, or even profitable [1Co 6:12] to drink alcohol is because of this scripture in Romans

Rom 14:21 It is best not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything else that causes problems for other followers of the Lord.


I may not be an alcoholic, but there are followers of Jesus that used to be, and I know that all it would take is one drink, and they're back where they started, especially new converts. If they see you drinking, chances are they will think they have enough control to drink and not get drunk too. I wouldn't want to be the reason someone else sins.

Its is also the call of the Lord to go out and preach the gospel [Mark 16:15] Whats it going to look like when you go up to the drunkard down the street with a beer in your hand trying to tell him about the love of God and how he is living in sin? Hes gonna think you're just another hypocrite christian. Aren't we called to be the light of the world? Not just sit in the darkness and blend in with everyone else? We should be preaching at the bars not drinking in them! (IMO)


Oh and thanks for the thing about Grape Juice.


Valerie

So are you actually arguing that drinking is a sin? (remember, we have established that not only did Jesus drink, but he also went on keg runs for weddings). Or are you saying that we should be careful whom we drink around? I think you confuse drinking with being drunk. Being drunk necessitates drinking, but drinking DOES NOT necessitate being drunk. Not when done properly in moderation.

As for the drunkard, he's going to think "whoa, a Christian who isn't about to condemn me to Hell for drinking". Or he's going to be thinking, "Oh man... where's the nearest toilet...". But he isn't going to be thinking that a Christian is bad because he drinks. Now, if you murder someone and then turn around to someone else in the room and witness to them, that's where the question of hypocrisy comes up.

So remember, the only way to say that it is wrong to drink, is to call Jesus a sinner.

[ChrisHarbison]

I'm going to my cousin's house to eat meat and drink alcohol tonight. It'll be good.

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by ChrisHarbison

I'm going to my cousin's house to eat meat and drink alcohol tonight. It'll be good.

Oh no... will that result in a new avi? We all know that was what caused the current one...

[+Donny]

Originally Posted by Lightknight

Oh no... will that result in a new avi? We all know that was what caused the current one...

Your face caused the current one.

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by +Donny

Your face caused the current one.

[adamwagg]

I agree.

I however choose not to drink, mainly in that at least 75% of the people I know who are non Christians and probably a fair percentage of christians drink only every now and then, and drink then only to get drunk.

I see it in my role as a Youth Leader as one of the major issues (binge drinking / drunkenness) facing youth, which the church is losing in Australia. As such I have decided to not drink, one to stay right away from the whole problem and temptation and two to show people that you can have fun without getting drunk.

There are other people I know who ensure that they drink in moderation to show people that you dont have to get drunk when you drink alcohol and I understand that stance as well.

I have also noticed a few people who fell away from God, and without being them I couldnt say how much effect it had, but there first step was to start getting drunk - which led them to do other things, and eventually they stopped believing.

That is why I have my personal no alocohol stance, but I certantly dont go around saying alcohol is a sin, but I agree with Lightnight here about drinking, and about getting drunk.

[KATMAN]

Our church takes a big leap in alcholic drinks.As a member of our church,we take an oath not to drink any alcoholic beverages.Saying this,I don't believe drinking is a sin,but it can cause a major distraction to God if you're not carefull.As far as drinking in your own home,moderately,I have no problem with that,even if I choose not to. But it is also a distraction for unbeleivers who might see you go into a bar or nightclub and having a drink with friends.They will be the first ones to tell you off when you try to witness to them,they don't understand.

[Ryan Akers]

I agree with almost everything. I do believe that drinking biblical wine is not a sin. I do believe getting drunk is a sin....people who drink, by all means, knock yourself out.

My reasons for not drinking...

1.) I liked the example of witnessing to someone who is a drunk. How can you correct their ways when they might have the wrong view of yours.

2.) I have yet to be convinced by anyone that the wine of the New Testament as well as the Old Testament is as alcoholic as it is today. From what I understand, the wine of that day was very diluted with water. The alcohol was used to kill the bacteria of the water so the wine was more of water than anything.

3.) Drunkenness is a sin, thus why should we even be toeing the line by drinking. Satan knows drunkenness is a sin, so he knows weaknesses. I don't care who thinks they are strong-willed enough to withstand the wiles of the Devil...they're not.

[ChrisHarbison]

I didn't actually edit your post...well, I did, but I didn't mean to. So I put it back the way it was and now I'm replying which is what I meant to do in the first place.

Originally Posted by Ryan Akers

I agree with almost everything. I do believe that drinking biblical wine is not a sin. I do believe getting drunk is a sin....people who drink, by all means, knock yourself out.

I respect your choice to not drink, but allow me to voice my objections to your reasons for not drinking:

Originally Posted by Ryan Akers

1.) I liked the example of witnessing to someone who is a drunk. How can you correct their ways when they might have the wrong view of yours.

This can go for anything. By this logic, a married man with a healthy sex life would be disqualified from correcting the ways of a man addicted to pornography. After all, how can the married man correct the abuser if he has a wrong view of the married man's sex life?

Originally Posted by Ryan Akers

2.) I have yet to be convinced by anyone that the wine of the New Testament as well as the Old Testament is as alcoholic as it is today. From what I understand, the wine of that day was very diluted with water. The alcohol was used to kill the bacteria of the water so the wine was more of water than anything.

Is this really relevant? I mean, honestly, does it really matter if our wine happens to be (and I'm not in any way convinced it is) stronger than theirs? It's still alcohol.

Originally Posted by Ryan Akers

3.) Drunkenness is a sin, thus why should we even be toeing the line by drinking. Satan knows drunkenness is a sin, so he knows weaknesses. I don't care who thinks they are strong-willed enough to withstand the wiles of the Devil...they're not.

Sexual promiscuity is a sin, so why would we even be toeing the line by having sex with our spouses? Satan can take any good gift from God and tempt us to abuse it, that doesn't mean we should avoid it all together.