[joshaber]

Originally Posted by Lightknight

I don't recall Jesus doing any of those things.

I don't recall a verse that states the age at which Jesus began to drink wine.

I'm saying that if it's something that Jesus Christ physically did, then there should be no law passed against it. To do such is to call it wrong.

Not at all. It may very well be that the government chooses to restrict the use of alcohol, in order to protect the teen from themselves. You'd also need to show that the fact that Jesus did it means we can disobey the government to do it.

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by joshaber

I don't recall a verse that states the age at which Jesus began to drink wine.

Is it a sin to drink wine when you're young? Do not forget the age of a man in Jewish tradition .

Not at all. It may very well be that the government chooses to restrict the use of alcohol, in order to protect the teen from themselves. You'd also need to show that the fact that Jesus did it means we can disobey the government to do it.

The fact that it isn't wrong to do.

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by Ryan Akers

I refuse to continue in this discussion until you show me exactly where I said it is a sin. Until then, keep blowing smoke.

It is implied in your arguement. Is it not? Why else would you try to claim that wine is not the same wine as 2,000 years ago?

[joshaber]

Originally Posted by Lightknight

Is it a sin to drink wine when you're young? Do not forget the age of a man in Jewish tradition .

It's a sin if the government outlaws it. And that would be an argument from silence to say that it was probable that Jesus drank wine when he was young.

Originally Posted by I

Not at all. It may very well be that the government chooses to restrict the use of alcohol, in order to protect the teen from themselves. You'd also need to show that the fact that Jesus did it means we can disobey the government to do it.

Originally Posted by Lightknight

The fact that it isn't wrong to do.

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by joshaber

It's a sin if the government outlaws it. And that would be an argument from silence to say that it was probable that Jesus drank wine when he was young.

Hitler outlawed Jews.

To create a law against it is to say that it is wrong (i.e. sinful).

[Ryan Akers]

Originally Posted by Lightknight

It is implied in your arguement. Is it not? Why else would you try to claim that wine is not the same wine as 2,000 years ago?

Why would I claim it, because the men from 2,000 years ago wrote that it wasn't.

Homer in the Odyssey wrote it was 20 parts water, 1 part wine.

Pliny referred to wine as eight parts water and one part wine (Natural History 14.6-54) The Reference

Euneos - Three parts water, one part wine.

Sometimes in the ancient world one part water would be mixed with one part wine; this was considered strong wine. And anyone who drank wine unmixed was looked on as a Scythian, a barbarian. That means the Greeks would say today, "You Americans are barbarians -- drinking straight wine." For example, Athenaeus quoted Mnesitheus of Athens as saying, "in daily intercourse, to those who drink it moderately it gives good cheer; but if you overstep the bounds it brings violence. Mix it half and half and you get madness; unmixed -- bodily collapse."(8) Here is a pagan saying, "Half and half is madness, and unmixed wine brings death."

[joshaber]

Originally Posted by I

It's a sin if the government outlaws it. And that would be an argument from silence to say that it was probable that Jesus drank wine when he was young.

Originally Posted by Lightknight

Hitler outlawed Jews.

And that would be going against a clear-set Biblical principle, in which case we must disobey. To say that not drinking alcohol goes against clear-set Biblical principles is to beg the question.

To create a law against it is to say that it is wrong (i.e. sinful).

It says it is wrong until a certain age. And this is where you must show that the Bible says one way or the other regarding the age to drink wine, or if we should allow the government to set that.

[+Donny]

I'm saying that if it's something that Jesus Christ physically did, then there should be no law passed against it. To do such is to call it wrong.

As was said earlier, the law is for practical purposes. It doesn't indicate that it is inherently morally wrong to drink under the age of 21. You are making a huge leap here, and I have no idea why.

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by +Donny

As was said earlier, the law is for practical purposes. It doesn't indicate that it is inherently morally wrong to drink under the age of 21. You are making a huge leap here, and I have no idea why.

Other countries don't have the same problem we do with it. The law has become a thorn in our side. It should never have been made and now it can't really be taken away.

[smhatahy]

Nero ordered the murder of Christians. Hitler ordered the murder of Jews. I guess you would have just fallen into the ranks and said sir yes sir.

It explicitly says in the Bible that murder is wrong.

While I agree that those are extreme examples, it does not lessen my point at all. Scripture is a governing authority in the life of a Christian. Which is better Akshay, to obey the Bible or to obey the law if the two conflict? The wording of Romans 13 is on doing what is evil versus doing what is good.

How is it a conflict? Show me in the Bible where it says not allowing someone alcohol is wrong.

What do you mean? Are you familiar with statistics? Cause that's where I got my support. From statistics and the many reports and such that have been presented over the years.

May i see those statistics that you are reffering to?

Please prove me wrong using support against me. (and no, articles from "MADD" don't count)

I believe the burden of proof rest on you.

Did Jesus do anything that was wrong? Everything he did was right and just. Jesus Christ, our Lord, drank wine. It is right and just to do so. To prohibit something that is right and just from people is a sin. Why should a person who is 20 years and 364 days old not drink in moderation? Heck, why should an 11 year old not drink wine in moderation?

Show me biblical proof that we MUST be allowed to do everything Jesus did. BTW Jesus was drinking wine when he was 30 years old. There is no biblical evidence of Jesus drinking wine before the age of 21.

I'm saying that if it's something that Jesus Christ physically did, then there should be no law passed against it. To do such is to call it wrong.

That is such an absurd statement. If Jesus commanded everyone one to drink a glass of wine a day, then yes it would be wrong to make such a law. Jesus however didn't do that, he drank wine so we are also able to drink wine if the law allows it. In this case the government's law is superior, according to Romans 13.

Hitler outlawed Jews.

He murdered them, which would make it a sin. Not allowing someone alcohol is NOT A SIN.

[nightowl10175]

How is drinking alcohol doing anything harmful to our temples? Keep in mind, we both disagree with excess.

Do not forget, Christ's "witness" was hindered because he drank wine. People called him a glutton and a drunkard. Please explain to me why we should not do it if Christ did not deem it important to stop? Are we to be "better" than Christ in our actions?

Mat 11:18 "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!'
Mat 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."

Christ hung out with the sort of people that many Christians would tell us not to associate ourselves with, Christ drank alcohol and his witness suffered in some ways because of both. Explain why not drinking to avoid unbelievers or "holy people" thinking bad things of us is the so called higher road to take when Jesus himself did not?!

Christ was more concerned with breaking the religious spirits holding the pharisees and other religious leaders of the time. Religious spirits that unfortunately still lay hold of Christians today.

_________________


I agree with you on these points and I think that we are debating over nothing. We both agree drinking is not a sin in a general sense, we both agree drinking in excess is. The only difference is our personal opinions on it.

Please explain to me why we should not do it if Christ did not deem it important to stop? Are we to be "better" than Christ in our actions?

No we are not better than Christ and no he didn't deem it important to stop, he also didn't command us to drink. I personally chose not to drink because it is an open door that can lead to sin, and because it may hinder others.

[+Donny]

Originally Posted by Lightknight

Other countries don't have the same problem we do with it. The law has become a thorn in our side. It should never have been made and now it can't really be taken away.

Then lobby for its removal. This still doesn't mean we can disobey it.

[Godreignsoveral]

Hey Lightnight... does jaywalking being illegal = a declaration that jaywalking is sinful? No. It's a law put in place for practical purposes. Whether the government's reasoning was wise and worked out the way they wanted or not, just because it's illegal doesn't equate that it is sinful. It's just legalities for hopefully practical reasons. Could you expound more on why you think made illegal = governemnt thinks and wants to portray it as immoral?

Mark

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by Akshay

It explicitly says in the Bible that murder is wrong.

But the Bible also explicitly says that leaders are placed by God and if we disobey them we are disobeying God. Does it not? You posted it.

How is it a conflict? Show me in the Bible where it says not allowing someone alcohol is wrong.

It is the issue of saying that something is wrong when it isn't wrong.

May i see those statistics that you are reffering to?

I have read it, please tell me what basis you have to disagree with me.

Show me biblical proof that we MUST be allowed to do everything Jesus did. BTW Jesus was drinking wine when he was 30 years old. There is no biblical evidence of Jesus drinking wine before the age of 21.

If something is sinful for any age, then it is sinful for all ages. Unless you can name a single sin that changes with age. I am saying that a government cannot call something wrong if Jesus himself did it. The reason it was established was because of "religious" groups that decided it was sinful. So it was either stick with no alcohol at all (18th amendment) or to make a compromise (21st amendment). The law was made to appease people who thought drinking alcohol was a sin. Or did you not study that part of american history and government?

That is such an absurd statement. If Jesus commanded everyone one to drink a glass of wine a day, then yes it would be wrong to make such a law. Jesus however didn't do that, he drank wine so we are also able to drink wine if the law allows it. In this case the government's law is superior, according to Romans 13.

The law was made because people considered it a sin.

He murdered them, which would make it a sin. Not allowing someone alcohol is NOT A SIN.

I don't recall Romans 13 differing between leaders who are evil and leaders who are good. Nor does it say that only the "good" leaders are the ones placed there by God. So if you're going to pick and choose which laws or government commands are to be obeyed or not to be obeyed, you'd better decide what your standards are. Are you pro life or "anti-life"? As a doctor you could not "legally" refuse to do it based on moral principals, could you? How about laws that prohibit a teacher from spreading the gospel in class? Is it biblical to restrict the spreading of God's word? Our government isn't all peaches.

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by Godreignsoveral

Hey Lightnight... does jaywalking being illegal = a declaration that jaywalking is sinful? No. It's a law put in place for practical purposes. Whether the government's reasoning was wise and worked out the way they wanted or not, just because it's illegal doesn't equate that it is sinful. It's just legalities for hopefully practical reasons. Could you expound more on why you think made illegal = governemnt thinks and wants to portray it as immoral?

Mark

Jaywalking is a bad example because:

1. Jesus never did it.

2. It is protecting you from being hit by a car or causing others to be hurt.

This is the same reason why drinking and driving are illegal.