Is Hell "Just?"

BereanatHeart · 07-06-2005, 03:51 PM

I've been engaged in a written debate with a Deist, and the subject of whether or not Hell is just came up.

His argument, basically, is that "finite creatures commiting finite deeds, are in no way deserving of an infinite punishment."

I argued that, "these are decisions that are intrinsically eternal by nature, for, if in our entire Earthly life-time we see fit to reject God by violating His laws, we have thus shown that we do not love Him and revere Him as God, as we ought to. In us choosing a life without God, God justly gives us a death without Him."

I further added that God knows the true evil of Sin better than we do, since He is indeed infinite, and would certainly make a just punishment, and in His wisdom saw fit to deem eternal Hell to be that punishment.

Anyway, I'm just curious to hear other's opinions and thoughts on the subject, and any help would be appreciated. Thanks ahead of time!

ChrisHarbison · 07-06-2005, 04:40 PM

The Scriptures are quite clear that the debt we owe to Christ is an eternal and unpayable debt. Therefore, anything less than eternal punishment isn't actually justice. So I'd argue that true justice requires an eternal punishment for the repayment of an eternal debt.

nolidad · 07-06-2005, 06:35 PM

Quote:

His argument, basically, is that "finite creatures commiting finite deeds, are in no way deserving of an infinite punishment."

Well man did not get to make th erules--God did so what He says goes. I know that doesn't make for great debate but that is the bottom line. Hell is just fro no matter how finite a mans deeds are sin is an offense to God-- His love purchased freedom from the sin He hatres- so to reject the gift He paid for sends one to a punish8ment He did not desire for mankind.

sk8rchik · 07-06-2005, 07:25 PM

hell is just. God gave us a will to do wat's right or wrong. the wages of doing wrong is hell. if hell is not just because finite beings doing finite deeds don't deserve infinite rewards/punishments than heaven is not just either.
ppl always wanna take the good parts and ignore the bad parts. why is that?

trim17 · 07-06-2005, 08:41 PM

Hell is indeed just. Sin is man's rejection of God, his disobedience of His Supreme will. Yet, God freely offers forgiveness to all through Christ, for ALL sins (except blasphemy, which is man's ultimate rejection of God). So to not seek forgiveness which is offered is showing an unwillingness to repent/a lack of remorse about disobeying God. A continual (read: eternal) rejection therefore is punished eternally.

Shredcheddar · 07-06-2005, 11:10 PM

You should note that we are indeed not finite creatures since we are all destined for eternity. I suppose this is what you meant when you said that our actions are by nature eternal, but it is important to point out that if he is assuming an infinite afterlife then he cannot justly assert that we are finite. If that were so, then the whole bother of heaven or hell would be irrelevant.

Travis · 07-07-2005, 12:02 AM

Nolidad has the perfect rebuttal: Man doesn't get to make the rules. On what basis can this deist chap make moral pronouncements? Ask him how he defines justice, and ask for a defense of his system of defining it.

Also, I think a mistake is being made because we are concentrating on the finite* nature of man and not on the infinite goodness, righteousness, and justice of God which man has transgressed. (The unregenerate man, we see, is always wont to concentrate on himself rather than The Lord.)

* Not in the sense of how long he will exist, for as Shredchedder pointed out human beings are eternal, but in the sense that he only committed a limited number of sins, since his earthly life was finite.

mlqurgw · 07-07-2005, 12:10 AM

If you want to know how God views sin just go to the cross. When God found sin on His beloved Son He turned His back on Him and killed Him. Or go to Gethsemene and see Christ sweat blood at the very thought of taking sin on Himself. Is Hell just? Ask a dying Savior.

Not Yet · 07-07-2005, 08:01 AM

Very well put Chris. I cannot imagine a more concice, yet to the point argument.

Not Yet · 07-07-2005, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BereanatHeart

I've been engaged in a written debate with a Deist, and the subject of whether or not Hell is just came up.

His argument, basically, is that "finite creatures commiting finite deeds, are in no way deserving of an infinite punishment."

I argued that, "these are decisions that are intrinsically eternal by nature, for, if in our entire Earthly life-time we see fit to reject God by violating His laws, we have thus shown that we do not love Him and revere Him as God, as we ought to. In us choosing a life without God, God justly gives us a death without Him."

I further added that God knows the true evil of Sin better than we do, since He is indeed infinite, and would certainly make a just punishment, and in His wisdom saw fit to deem eternal Hell to be that punishment.

Anyway, I'm just curious to hear other's opinions and thoughts on the subject, and any help would be appreciated. Thanks ahead of time!

Such an argument puts me in mind of the potter and the clay.

I can just imagind the vessel saying to the potter, "You have no right to make me this way," or "It is unjust for you to put me into that hot firnace." Or even, "You are WRONG in putting me through all this, just to make me as you wish me to be."

Not Yet · 07-07-2005, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shredcheddar

You should note that we are indeed not finite creatures since we are all destined for eternity. I suppose this is what you meant when you said that our actions are by nature eternal, but it is important to point out that if he is assuming an infinite afterlife then he cannot justly assert that we are finite. If that were so, then the whole bother of heaven or hell would be irrelevant.

What is, is finite. What is to come, is infinite.

We must shed the finite to acquire the infinite.

Not Yet · 07-07-2005, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shredcheddar

You should note that we are indeed not finite creatures since we are all destined for eternity. I suppose this is what you meant when you said that our actions are by nature eternal, but it is important to point out that if he is assuming an infinite afterlife then he cannot justly assert that we are finite. If that were so, then the whole bother of heaven or hell would be irrelevant.

This totally depends on how you look at it. Be it from a spiritual, or fleshly (carnal) standpoint.
From a carnal (fleshly) standpoint, I must disagree, for "it is appointed unto men once to die" Hebrews 9:27. Prior to that death, the body IS indeed finite.

You confuse the fact that man is not one. He is two, body and spirit. Currently, only the spirit is infinite.

This body will die. When our Lord comes again, the dead in Christ shall rise. We will receive a new and rejuvenated body, which then, and only then, along with the spirit, will be infinite.

WorshipJesus · 07-08-2005, 12:14 PM

Many people say that God isn't right in sending people to hell. when in fact people send themselves to hell. we are born in sin and we have the choice to ask Jesus for forgiveness. we were already condemned (John 3:17). now, many people might say "what about the people in other countries who have never heard about God?" according to Romans 1, God gave them creation to declare His majesty. God will deal with them if they don't hear. all we have to do is try to reach the Gospel out to them.

Also, many people say that God isn't being fair because people go to hell. well, i have something to tell all of those who believe this: God was, is, and will always be just. if anyone know about what unfairness is, it's Him. He was perfect, yet He decided to die for those who are unperfect. talk about infair! it wasn't fair for Him to die so we could live. that just a lil something that we all should think about. God Bless. -WorshipJesus

sallyjr · 07-08-2005, 12:24 PM

It is out of respect and the intrinsic value placed in us that we are in hell for eternity. Someone posted earlier that we choose to go to hell. I think that's spot on. God is giving us what we wanted, seperation from him. By sinning we are saying, "I want to go my way, the soul is mine" and so God lets us go.

In terms of time I found this analogy helpful.

The greatest crime we can commit physically, most people would agree, is murder. The sentence for murder is removal from society for the rest of your life.

The greatest crime we can commit spirutally is the rejection of God love. The sentence is removal from His presence for eternity.

Lightknight · 07-08-2005, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BereanatHeart

I've been engaged in a written debate with a Deist, and the subject of whether or not Hell is just came up.

His argument, basically, is that "finite creatures commiting finite deeds, are in no way deserving of an infinite punishment."

I argued that, "these are decisions that are intrinsically eternal by nature, for, if in our entire Earthly life-time we see fit to reject God by violating His laws, we have thus shown that we do not love Him and revere Him as God, as we ought to. In us choosing a life without God, God justly gives us a death without Him."

I further added that God knows the true evil of Sin better than we do, since He is indeed infinite, and would certainly make a just punishment, and in His wisdom saw fit to deem eternal Hell to be that punishment.

Anyway, I'm just curious to hear other's opinions and thoughts on the subject, and any help would be appreciated. Thanks ahead of time!

Allow me to stand on the shoulder of a giant in history. Occam.

Ockham (or Occam depending on how you want to spell his name) had some interesting theories on it. He tried several different ways to prove God using only reason. He nearly got excommunicated for a few of them as well. But there was one thing he said that peaked my interest. The thing he said assumes the creation to be true and that man really did commit such a sin to fall. The jist of it is that a human committed an immortal crime (this human being immortal at the time) and then became mortal (no longer being able to perform any immortal action any more, good or bad). Thus a man had to atone for our sins, but he also had to be an immortal being to undo what was already done. So it would necessitate that Jesus be more than just a man, yet still need to be man.

Note also that by your Deist's arguement that we are just finite beings, he/she should now be a bit perplexed when the statement that hell for humans came into existance because of an infinite being committing a sin. Adam being man, disobedience being the sin.

Now, herein lies the problem. God is a completely just judge. If someone deserves punishment, He will punish them. If someone deserves not to be punished, then he will not punish them. Unfortunately, thanks to Adam, we all deserve to die. So that sin must be atoned for, for us. This is where Jesus comes in, he took the punishment FOR us. Thus, God is justly sending some to heaven and others to hell. But sending Jesus was nothing but the grace of God so that He wouldn't have to send us all to Hell.