[Danny]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/06/....ap/index.html

Ummm... Is anyone else just a little concerned about the implications of this bill? I mean, I'm not exactly pro-flag-burning, but when the government bans a completely harmless form of protest, based (I guess?) on some sort of ideal that the government is above criticism/disrespect/whatever.... Seriously, when was the last time you heard of a free nation doing something like this? Since when is un-patriotism a punishable offense?? The more I think about it, the more this amendment deeply disturbs me. I really hope it doesn't pass through Senate.

[doulos777]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

It is not a matter of punishing the unpatriotic. It is a matter of setting standards of conduct based upon the desire of the majority.

We swear to tell the truth on the Bible. We pledge allegiance to the flag. The symbol of our republic. There is a challenge in North Calolina to use "any holy book" to swear to tell the truth. While flag burnings are rare, they are a horrendous disrespect to the country, not the government. There seems to be an accelerating disrespect for anything "traditional". Part of this is due to an unprecedented influx of immigrants who do not want to blend into America, but rather want to redefine the culture.

I am not anti-immigration. I am anti ILLEGAL immigration.

If you have a problem with the government, or a grievance with some entity within the United States, then the First Ammendment protects you and any verbiage you want to use to address your grievance.

But burning the flag is akin to telling the United States to go to Hell.

I believe in freedom. But not to the extent of allowing someone to publicly disrespect the United States while enjoying the constitutional protection afforded by that same country and the Constitution.

Let it pass the Senate. It would still need to be ratified by the states before it could become a part of the constitution. Chances are that will never happen, but the publicity and the discourse that it would create would do this fat and lazy populous some good.

If you hate this country to the extent that you want to burn the flag which is her symbol, then I would gladly purchase your one-way ticket to anywhere else you think you might be happy.

[GORP006]

The problem with legislation like this is that it's designed around trapping people. If you vote against it, they can claim that you are anti-American, or anti-flag, or anti-patriotism. If it passes, it infringes on our first amendment rights to express ourselves freely. I have absolutely no problem if someone wants to burn a flag out of protest. America is not about a flag. America is about freedoms, the first of which is our freedom to speak our minds, protest, etc... Sure, the Flag is a great symbol of America, and I love the flag, and I get all choked up when I see injured veterans carrying flags. But I think that if a person wants to express their objection to the American Government, they should have the right to do so by burning/desecrating the flag, just as I have the right to get ticked off when they do it. That doesn't lessen their right to do it. I get ticked off when PeTA members hand out "unhappy meals" at Mcdonalds too, but they have a right to do it.

What frightens me is that there are dozens of problems that the legislature should be fixing. We are fighting a war where dozens of soldiers die each week. More and more Americans can't afford healthcare. We are enslaved to foreign oil. Our environment is rapidly deteriorating. The wealth-gap is increasing daily, and the Economy is Stagnating. Yet, the best our legislature can do is ban flag desecration. The Citizens Flag Alliance, an advocacy group supporting the amendment admits that domestic Flag burning is down significantly, to about 1 or 2 per year. Sure, we see burning flags on TV all the time, but always in foreign nations, not America. An amendment will do nothing to stop overseas flag burning. I would think that flying the Confederate flag is more offensive than burning the American flag. Yet, thousands of people fly confederate flags every day. Nothing has been done to try to stop people from flying the flag of the worst traitors in American history.

I say, let them burn flags, there are more important matters at hand.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by doulos777

We swear to tell the truth on the Bible.

Which is just ridiculous, considering it's a sin to Christians and Jews and means absolutely nothing to anyone else, but that's another topic for another thread....

We pledge allegiance to the flag. The symbol of our republic.

Voluntarily. Not at the compulsion of the State. What is this, Cuba?

While flag burnings are rare, they are a horrendous disrespect to the country, not the government.

I don't disagree. I just don't think outlawing the practice should have any place in any nation that wants to call itself free.

There seems to be an accelerating disrespect for anything "traditional". Part of this is due to an unprecedented influx of immigrants who do not want to blend into America, but rather want to redefine the culture.

I really don't see how this has anything to do with tradition or immigration.

If you have a problem with the government, or a grievance with some entity within the United States, then the First Ammendment protects you and any verbiage you want to use to address your grievance.

But burning the flag is akin to telling the United States to go to Hell.

Which you just admitted is a right protected by the first amendment.

Hey, United States: Go to hell. In fact, America, go sodomize yourself with rubber batons!

Do you want to arrest me now?

I believe in freedom. But not to the extent of allowing someone to publicly disrespect the United States while enjoying the constitutional protection afforded by that same country and the Constitution.

Why? I agree that it's irrational, stupid, and even wrong, but that doesn't mean it should be outlawed. You don't see me petitioning to outlaw religion, after all.

[JerryLove]

I believe in freedom. But not to the extent of allowing someone to publicly disrespect the United States while enjoying the constitutional protection afforded by that same country and the Constitution.

Then you are nieve.

You would seriously outlaw something on the grounds that it's "disrespectful"? Isn't protesting inherently disrespectful? Wasn't spilling the beans on Iran-Contra disrespectful? Wasn't seperation from England disrespectful? Wasn't a blak woman riding in the front of a bus under Jim Crow laws disrespectful?

Hell, isn't declaring you are innocent when you go to trial disrespectful of the government that has said "you did it"?

[Art]

What is this? What other country holds their flag as holy? It is stupid and ridiculous.

[loriborealis]

Originally Posted by Danny

Which is just ridiculous, considering it's a sin to Christians and Jews and means absolutely nothing to anyone else, but that's another topic for another thread....

Amen.


Honestly, I think America is losing the plot. It keeps pushing closer and closer to an un-free nation every time Congress passes a bill. (I mean, what the f was the Patriot Act all about??) I moved to Britain last year and just living under another system has made it all the more clear just how bad the direction America is heading really is.

The Repblicans suck, and the Democrats suck at picking presidential candidates.

Anyway, this anti-flag burning bill is just another example. Does anyone else hear creepy patriotic music and see war planes leaving cross shadows?
I'm referencing a German war propoganda movie from the 40s. But I have not mention Nazis so I do not automatically lose the debate.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by loriborealis

The Repblicans suck, and the Democrats suck at picking presidential candidates.

Haha. Too true.

[GORP006]

Originally Posted by loriborealis

Amen.


Honestly, I think America is losing the plot. It keeps pushing closer and closer to an un-free nation every time Congress passes a bill. (I mean, what the f was the Patriot Act all about??) I moved to Britain last year and just living under another system has made it all the more clear just how bad the direction America is heading really is.

The Repblicans suck, and the Democrats suck at picking presidential candidates.

Anyway, this anti-flag burning bill is just another example. Does anyone else hear creepy patriotic music and see war planes leaving cross shadows?
I'm referencing a German war propoganda movie from the 40s. But I have not mention Nazis so I do not automatically lose the debate.

Excellent point. I like your phrase, America is losing the Plot...And that is so true... Our story started out as a land of unfettered freedom, freedom from fear of a repressive regime...Now we've used that freedom to usher in a repressive regime.

At what point did it become OK to desecrate the constitution in order to prevent desecration of the flag. On a scale of symbolic to embodyment of everything American, the flag falls under the former, the constitution, the latter. I would rather the flag were desecrated than the constitution.

Unlike Lori, I'm not as squeamish about comparing the Bush administration/Republicans in Congress to Nazis. It's not a comparison that I particularly enjoy, but one that I reluctantly confirm. Maybe I should just leave the comparison at Fascism. But when appearing patriotic is more important than embodying the American ideal, that is fascism. When opposing the established administration is un-patriotic, that is fascism. When fear is the driving force behind a nation's support for the actions of its leaders, that is fascism. When our right to choose our leaders is stolen from us (see Florida 2000, Ohio 2004) that is fascism. When those un-chosen leaders demand unprecedented access to your private life, but hide from you every detail of the Government's actions, that is fascism. Thomas Jefferson once said that Dissent is the highest form of patriotism. The day that America outlaws that very patriotic act that was the foundation of America, that is the day that America ceases to be a republic, and becomes a fascist empire.

[loriborealis]

Originally Posted by GORP006

Unlike Lori, I'm not as squeamish about comparing the Bush administration/Republicans in Congress to Nazis. It's not a comparison that I particularly enjoy, but one that I reluctantly confirm. Maybe I should just leave the comparison at Fascism. But when appearing patriotic is more important than embodying the American ideal, that is fascism. When opposing the established administration is un-patriotic, that is fascism. When fear is the driving force behind a nation's support for the actions of its leaders, that is fascism. When our right to choose our leaders is stolen from us (see Florida 2000, Ohio 2004) that is fascism. When those un-chosen leaders demand unprecedented access to your private life, but hide from you every detail of the Government's actions, that is fascism. Thomas Jefferson once said that Dissent is the highest form of patriotism. The day that America outlaws that very patriotic act that was the foundation of America, that is the day that America ceases to be a republic, and becomes a fascist empire.

I'm not so much squeamish at making the comparison as I am afraid someone will slap the Nazi-rule on me and make me lose the argument. (I can't remember what its called- they say the moment you bring Nazism into a debate, you've automatically lost... someone help me here?)

On the contrary, I'm in the habit these days of calling America the new Iron Curtain.

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by doulos777

If you hate this country to the extent that you want to burn the flag which is her symbol, then I would gladly purchase your one-way ticket to anywhere else you think you might be happy.

Seriously? I will take you up on your offer then. Please by me a ticket to Vancouver. I assume you'll also be paying the immigration costs? They run upwards of $1000.

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by loriborealis

I'm not so much squeamish at making the comparison as I am afraid someone will slap the Nazi-rule on me and make me lose the argument. (I can't remember what its called- they say the moment you bring Nazism into a debate, you've automatically lost... someone help me here?)

Godwin's Law.

Though honestly, this development is so stupid and frightening that the comparison might actually be warranted. Does anyone know what the chances are of it passing the Senate? Hopefully the runaway liberal judiciary will smack it down.

[+Donny]

Unlike Lori, I'm not as squeamish about comparing the Bush administration/Republicans in Congress to Nazis. It's not a comparison that I particularly enjoy, but one that I reluctantly confirm. Maybe I should just leave the comparison at Fascism. But when appearing patriotic is more important than embodying the American ideal, that is fascism. When opposing the established administration is un-patriotic, that is fascism. When fear is the driving force behind a nation's support for the actions of its leaders, that is fascism. When our right to choose our leaders is stolen from us (see Florida 2000, Ohio 2004) that is fascism. When those un-chosen leaders demand unprecedented access to your private life, but hide from you every detail of the Government's actions, that is fascism. Thomas Jefferson once said that Dissent is the highest form of patriotism. The day that America outlaws that very patriotic act that was the foundation of America, that is the day that America ceases to be a republic, and becomes a fascist empire.

Okay, this is out of hand. I think the flag-burning law is stupid. I think a lot of neo-conism is stupid, but to call them fascist? I think this is a sign that we probably have just been spoiled and don't really know what the hell real fascism is. Can the logic behind certain neo-con ideals be taken to fascist extents? Probably, but fascism is an incredibly loaded word, and because of that, it borders on ad hominem to throw it around like this, especially comparing it to Nazism, which is just plain ridiculous.

Dealing with the issues and using moderation in how you do so would be a lot more effective in defeating the "fascist" neo-con idealogy you hate so much. Calling Bush an aspiring emperor just makes you sound like Chicken Little, and as much as I hate some portions of conservativism, I hate that even more.

BTW, this post is not meant to be taken offensively, just bluntly. I apologize if I come across as a bit rough.

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by +Donny

Okay, this is out of hand. I think the flag-burning law is stupid. I think a lot of neo-conism is stupid, but to call them fascist? I think this is a sign that we probably have just been spoiled and don't really know what the hell real fascism is. Can the logic behind certain neo-con ideals be taken to fascist extents? Probably, but fascism is an incredibly loaded word, and because of that, it borders on ad hominem to throw it around like this, especially comparing it to Nazism, which is just plain ridiculous.

Dealing with the issues and using moderation in how you do so would be a lot more effective in defeating the "fascist" neo-con idealogy you hate so much. Calling Bush an aspiring emperor just makes you sound like Chicken Little, and as much as I hate some portions of conservativism, I hate that even more.

BTW, this post is not meant to be taken offensively, just bluntly. I apologize if I come across as a bit rough.

Astonishingly liberal Donny, you have to admit this is some pretty ****ed up ****. I don't think we're being Chicken Little, I think that all the sudden, in the last four years, our country has taken a dramatic and accelerated turn towards fascism, and this flag burning law is revving even more on the gas pedal. We are not there yet, and I doubt we ever will be, but the speed at which we have suddenly gone down that road (and are continuing down on it) is truly frightening.

[JerryLove]

Probably, but fascism is an incredibly loaded word, and because of that, it borders on ad hominem to throw it around like this, especially comparing it to Nazism, which is just plain ridiculous.

I see some notable differences... Himler and his policies are missing. For all of Guantanimo's problems, it's not even as similar as the concentration campes we put Japaneese-Americans in in the 40s.

So no, I think that it's not particularly similar to Nazi Germany, so much as it is similar to modern Iran, or China (only neither of those countries has invaded anyone recently... perhaps Soviet-era Russia?)