Did Jephthah really sacrifice his daughter?

Trojan72 · 06-17-2005, 10:47 PM

"And it was so at the end of two months that she returned to her father, and he carried out his vow with her which he had vowed. She knew no man."

So here's the debate....

In Judges chapter 11 we have the story of Jephthah, his victory and his daughter. At first glance, it seems cut an dry- Jephthah killed his daughter like he said, but at a second glance many see an alternative. I had a teacher tell me that to believe Jephthah did anything other than kill his daughter is absurd, while many notables (Weirsbe comes to mind) believe that instead Jephthah commited his daughter to celibacy as she served in the temple. I have my opinion, and I'm pretty convinced of it, but I would like to hear the fine scholars here hash this one out. Have fun.

Nate · 06-17-2005, 11:02 PM

Call me stupid, but I don't see where there's any wiggle-room here.

Trojan72 · 06-17-2005, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate

Call me stupid, but I don't see where there's any wiggle-room here.

There's a few key issues. I'll lay them down, but I'm going to do my best not to participate in the issue (unless someone says something that sorely needs to be corrected).

1. Human sacrifice in the nation Israel, other than the instance at hand, has never been documented. Why would an Israelite commit to and carry out something that is clearly outlawed by Scripture?
2. Jephthah's daughter asked to bewail her virginity, when Jephthah carried out his vow, the Bible says "she knew no man". This, in addition to issue #1, seems to point to the sacrifice being her virginity, not her life.

There are other issues, Weirsbe spells it out nicely in "Be Available", and most commentators address the issue when they come to it, but these are the first two issues that they will cite.

Nate · 06-17-2005, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trojan72

1. Human sacrifice in the nation Israel, other than the instance at hand, has never been documented. Why would an Israelite commit to and carry out something that is clearly outlawed by Scripture?

He didn't know that his daughter would be the first thing to come out of his house, or he obviously would never have made the vow. It isn't clearly outlawed by Scripture, as far as I can tell, though it's certainly not condoned either.

He would carry it out because he made a vow to the Lord and trusted that the Lord had chosen the method of having it paid back.

Quote:

2. Jephthah's daughter asked to bewail her virginity, when Jephthah carried out his vow, the Bible says "she knew no man". This, in addition to issue #1, seems to point to the sacrifice being her virginity, not her life.

The passage in question says that he vowed to make a "burnt offering" out of whatever came out of his house, and it says that he fulfilled his vow as he had made it. You can't burn virginity. You can burn a person. I think he was hoping for a goat, personally.

Like it or not, he killed his daughter as a burnt offering.

In His love,
Nate

Trojan72 · 06-17-2005, 11:30 PM

Nevermind, I'll just participate....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate

He didn't know that his daughter would be the first thing to come out of his house, or he obviously would never have made the vow. It isn't clearly outlawed by Scripture, as far as I can tell, though it's certainly not condoned either.

Not quite. The word translated "whatsoever" carries the assumption that the sacrifice would be human. As for humans sacrifice, Deuteronomy 18:10 says, "There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or daughter to pass through the fire..." See also Deut. 12:31

**+Donny** · 06-18-2005, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate

He didn't know that his daughter would be the first thing to come out of his house, or he obviously would never have made the vow. It isn't clearly outlawed by Scripture, as far as I can tell, though it's certainly not condoned either.

He would carry it out because he made a vow to the Lord and trusted that the Lord had chosen the method of having it paid back.

The passage in question says that he vowed to make a "burnt offering" out of whatever came out of his house, and it says that he fulfilled his vow as he had made it. You can't burn virginity. You can burn a person. I think he was hoping for a goat, personally.

Like it or not, he killed his daughter as a burnt offering.

In His love,
Nate

I don't think he killed her. Do you honestly think he was that stupid?

James Jordan argues the same in his commentary on judges. He says, as Trojan did, says that the Hebrew suggests very clearly a person. Furthermore, who else would be coming out of the house? I highly doubt they kept sacrificial animals in their house, and pets wouldn't be appropriate for sacrifice. I think we have to take a very uncharitable reading toward Jephthah to think he wasn't aware that it would be human. It just makes more sense of the passage as a whole to think he was vowing to dedicate a servant or someone in his household to the Lord's service.

KFBobInsanesMom · 06-18-2005, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by +Donny

I don't think he killed her. Do you honestly think he was that stupid?

.

How much more stupid would it be to not carry out a vow you made to God??

30 And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, "If You will indeed deliver the people of Ammon into my hands, 31 then it will be that whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the people of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up as a burnt offering...... 35 For I have given my word to the Lord, and I cannot go back on it. 36 So she said to him, "My father, if you have given your word to the Lord, do to me according to what has gone out of your mouth.....39 And it was so at the end of two months that she returned to her father, and he carried out his vow with her which he had vowed. She knew no man. And it became a custom in Israel 40 that the daughters of Israel went four days each year to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite."

Jephthah made a vow, God accepted his vow and fulfilled His part, Jephthah then carried out his vow. I don't see how this can be interpreted any other way. The fact that this was remembered each year with lamenting kinda seals it. He sacrificed her.

Nate · 06-18-2005, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by +Donny

I don't think he killed her. Do you honestly think he was that stupid?

Or that desperate for victory over the Ammonites.

For the love of all that is holy, read the Scripture!

Judges 11:30-39

And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD and said, "If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whatever comes out from the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the Ammonites shall be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering." So Jephthah crossed over to the Ammonites to fight against them, and the LORD gave them into his hand. And he struck them from Aroer to the neighborhood of Minnith, twenty cities, and as far as Abel-keramim, with a great blow. So the Ammonites were subdued before the people of Israel.

Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah. And behold, his daughter came out to meet him with tambourines and with dances. She was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter. And as soon as he saw her, he tore his clothes and said, "Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low, and you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the LORD, and I cannot take back my vow." And she said to him, "My father, you have opened your mouth to the LORD; do to me according to what has gone out of your mouth, now that the LORD has avenged you on your enemies, on the Ammonites." So she said to her father, "Let this thing be done for me: leave me alone two months, that I may go up and down on the mountains and weep for my virginity, I and my companions." So he said, "Go." Then he sent her away for two months, and she departed, she and her companions, and wept for her virginity on the mountains. And at the end of two months, she returned to her father, who did with her according to his vow that he had made.

Unless you're going to argue that the vow was not indeed a "burnt offering" (as every English translation I could find rendered it, with the exception of the craptastic CEV), I don't see how you have any Scriptural support for the argument that he didn't really kill her. He said, "I cannot break my vow;" she said, "Ok, go ahead and do it;" she came back and he "did with her according to his vow that he had made."

Perhaps this story is why Solomon was so careful to point out in Ecclesiastes that we should not be hasty when making a vow to the Lord, because He will not suffer it not to be repaid.

Quote:

James Jordan argues the same in his commentary on judges. He says, as Trojan did, says that the Hebrew suggests very clearly a person. Furthermore, who else would be coming out of the house? I highly doubt they kept sacrificial animals in their house, and pets wouldn't be appropriate for sacrifice. I think we have to take a very uncharitable reading toward Jephthah to think he wasn't aware that it would be human. It just makes more sense of the passage as a whole to think he was vowing to dedicate a servant or someone in his household to the Lord's service.

Donny: Read the Scripture. It says "burnt offering." Whether or not Jephthah knew it would be a human coming out makes no difference, he vowed to burn whatever it was. If he knew it would be a human, maybe he was really really desperate for victory. Who knows why he made the vow. Scripture doesn't say. All we know is what the vow was. You're eisegesizing like crazy here. Or are you arguing that "burnt offering" is not a sound translation?

In His love,
Nate

Trojan72 · 06-18-2005, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate

Donny: Read the Scripture. It says "burnt offering." Whether or not Jephthah knew it would be a human coming out makes no difference, he vowed to burn whatever it was. If he knew it would be a human, maybe he was really really desperate for victory. Who knows why he made the vow. Scripture doesn't say. All we know is what the vow was. You're eisegesizing like crazy here. Or are you arguing that "burnt offering" is not a sound translation?

Nobody's questioning the translation of "burnt offering", we're questioning the translation of "and".

" Translation. Unfortunately, our understanding of what he really promised hinges mainly on one letter in the Hebrew alphabet,

, which can mean "or" as well as "and." If we translate the letter as "or" the passage reads as follows:

And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD and said, “If Thou wilt indeed give the sons of Ammon into my hand, then it shall be that whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the sons of Ammon, it shall be the LORD’S, or I will offer it up as a burnt offering.” (NASB) Judges 11:30-31

The correct meaning is "or." This should be accepted as the proper translation for several reasons. First, if we assume "and" is correct then Jephthah knowingly committed himself to making a human sacrifice, since he said, "whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me . . . ." We must also realize that the Mosaic Law prohibited human sacrifice (Lev. 18:21; Deut. 12:31). Since Jephthah was filled with the Holy Spirit according to Judges 11:29, the Spirit would not have prompted him to make a vow to sin. Second, Judges never says that his daughter was killed or sacrificed. In fact, we are told that she goes into the mountains to weep for her virginity for two months. " - Taken from http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/corner/read1/r00314.html

Nate · 06-18-2005, 11:42 AM

What the ****ing hell?!!?!?

That makes absolutely no sense in light of the clear context of the passage!!

Why would Jephthah say, "Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low, and you have become the cause of great trouble to me." if the vow was simply that she would be the Lord's?

And what is it that was "done for her" or that Jephthah "did with her" if the vow was simply a consecration to be the Lord's?

Furthermore, "the Lord's" and "burnt offering" are not mutually exclusive... so the translation as "or" would be creating a false dilemma. It would be like "Yes, I will either sacrifice this to You, God, or I will burn it as a sacrifice." That makes no sense at all.

Nate · 06-18-2005, 11:49 AM

Leviticus 18:21
You shall not give any of your children to offer them[a] to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.

The footnote says that it may read "make them pass through the fire," but that's really only secondary. The point is that the Israelites were not supposed to give their children as a sacrifice to Molech.

Deuteronomy 12:31
You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the LORD hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.

Once again, the point isn't about human sacrifice but about worshipping other gods. God made it clear that the Israelites were supposed to worship Him in the way He had specified, and not by copying all the other religions in their area. The fact that they burned their sons and their daughters in the fire was only secondary.

If you are going to say that Jephthah would not have been led by the Spirit to make a vow that entailed human sacrifice, then how do you explain Jehovah commanding Abraham to sacrifice his son? God intervened, yes. Abraham is pre-Moses, yes. That doesn't change the fact that God asked him to sacrifice his son.

In His love,
Nate

Trojan72 · 06-18-2005, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate

Leviticus 18:21
You shall not give any of your children to offer them[a] to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.

The footnote says that it may read "make them pass through the fire," but that's really only secondary. The point is that the Israelites were not supposed to give their children as a sacrifice to Molech.

Deuteronomy 12:31
You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the LORD hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.

Once again, the point isn't about human sacrifice but about worshipping other gods. God made it clear that the Israelites were supposed to worship Him in the way He had specified, and not by copying all the other religions in their area. The fact that they burned their sons and their daughters in the fire was only secondary.

If you are going to say that Jephthah would not have been led by the Spirit to make a vow that entailed human sacrifice, then how do you explain Jehovah commanding Abraham to sacrifice his son? God intervened, yes. Abraham is pre-Moses, yes. That doesn't change the fact that God asked him to sacrifice his son.

In His love,
Nate

I think you're missing the point. As you read through Scripture, it becomes very clear the value that God places on life. Look through the Law, re-think your interpretations of the above verses. God values the life of His created people. To suggest that God would desire the killing of His own (Isaac), or that He would prompt His called leader (Jephthah) to kill His own, or even allow Jephthah to kill His own is contrary to the nature of God. This is unquestionably supported throughout Scripture.

**+Donny** · 06-18-2005, 01:21 PM

Quote:

What the ****ing hell?!!?!?

That makes absolutely no sense in light of the clear context of the passage!!

Why would Jephthah say, "Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low, and you have become the cause of great trouble to me." if the vow was simply that she would be the Lord's?

Simply? He gave her up as a lifetime virgin servant of the tabernacle. That's not a minor thing.

Quote:

And what is it that was "done for her" or that Jephthah "did with her" if the vow was simply a consecration to be the Lord's?

He isn't going to giver her in marriage, but instead gave her to service.

Quote:

Furthermore, "the Lord's" and "burnt offering" are not mutually exclusive... so the translation as "or" would be creating a false dilemma. It would be like "Yes, I will either sacrifice this to You, God, or I will burn it as a sacrifice." That makes no sense at all.

Neither of us know enough Hebrew to say that "burnt offering" necessarily indicates human sacrifice. Furthermore, this brings up a number of theological problems:

1)Why does God reward this vow?
2)Why the hell is Jephthah this stupid? He is a judge, with the Spirit of God in him, and he wants victory so bad he is willing to commit human sacrifice, and pray to God to help him do it?!
3)Why would the Levites let him do this? Were they that apostate, too?

Trojan72 · 06-18-2005, 05:15 PM

Well said, Donny.

By the way, Nate, what do the ****'s stand for in your exclamation, "What the ****ing hell?!!?!?

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 06-18-2005, 05:30 PM

well I tend to side that she probably became a virgin in the tabernacle because:

A) She does not bemoan her life but her virginity.

B) Jephthah bemoans her bringing him low. This situation nessecitates Jepthah either breaking the vow or breaking the Torah. I would assume he would break his vow as he is no matter what course he chooses going to be a transgressor.

C) The fact this was celebrated does not seem like something that would be permitted if human sacrifice were committed.