[JerryLove]

Leeway.. that's funny.

I watch banks write off multi-million dollar loans to companies, and put $400 in charges on someone for having a check that was $5 more than was in their account (can think of two individuals off the top of my head). I've watched hospitals do the same.

Leeway... LOL

[Travis]

Originally Posted by JerryLove

Borrowing $1,000 dollars and not being able to pay back $10,000 is theft?

If you agreed to pay back 10,000, yes.

Originally Posted by JerryLove

I think late fees and compunding interest is theft.

I agree. But that still doesn’t entitle people to promise to pay late fees and compounding interest and then not do so.

Originally Posted by JerryLove

Cite your source that the government is proscribed from caring for the welfare of its citizens.

The only job we see them being delegated by God is the job of defense of its citizens from enemies and criminals. They don’t have the right to take people’s money and force them to be charitable.

Originally Posted by JerryLove

And the credit-card company went into busness in an economy with bankrups laws. Who do they have to blame but themselves?

That’s an excellent point from a legal standpoint. However, we’re talking about the moral responsibility of the person who took out the loan, from a Christian standpoint.

Originally Posted by JerryLove

Would your church like to get me postitive on my mortguage? I'm behind because they decided I needed PMI and they got to pick from whom and how much it would cost.

You’ll have to convert to Christianity and join a church first before it would even be possible that they’d have such a responsibility.

[JerryLove]

If you agreed to pay back 10,000, yes.
I agree. But that still doesn’t entitle people to promise to pay late fees and compounding interest and then not do so.

Ahh.. so it's not borrowing money and not paying it back, but agreeing to gamble by getting a car or house or credit cards, and then not paying when you loose?

The only job we see them being delegated by God is the job of defense of its citizens from enemies and criminals. They don’t have the right to take people’s money and force them to be charitable.

Where does God proscribe it?

That’s an excellent point from a legal standpoint. However, we’re talking about the moral responsibility of the person who took out the loan, from a Christian standpoint.

But you are only applying it one way. You are asserting that it's immoral to not pay a fee assigned, not because it was fair, but because it was possible under the contract / law. Then you are saying that an equally "unfair but under the terms understood by both parties" is immoral to do.

You seem to be using two standards. When both parties entered into the exchange, they both knew *all* of the parts (the loan-agncy usually even more so). Just as the debtor knew that he could end up loosing if (for example if his house value fell and he lost the ability to pay, that he would be SOL), so did the agency know that the person they were loaning to could declare bankrupsy when that happened and they would be SOL.

They took a chance as much as the debtor... why are you allowing them to persue legal recoruse and not him?

You’ll have to convert to Christianity and join a church first before it would even be possible that they’d have such a responsibility.

So then Christians only help other Christians? So what about non-Christians who need help?

[GORP006]

Wow, this kinda turned into a bankruptcy thread. In regards to the bankruptcy bill... Essentially, what the bill was all about was limiting an individual's right to claim a certain type of bankruptcy. Namely Chapter 7 bankruptcy, which means the debtor surrenders certain assets, and the debt is cleared. This type of bankruptcy is intended for those who fall so far into debt that there is really no hope of ever catching up with the payments. Generally the interest on their debt is more than they can afford to pay each month and still be able to eat. This is generally due to loss of a job, but could come from over-extension of credit lines by the lenders at massive interest rates. Those who fail to meet the tougher standards are shuffled into chapter 13, which requires a strict repayment of the debt, often by garnishing wages, as well as forced surrender of assets.

At any rate, my biggest problem with the bill is that it clearly favors corporations. It does this in two ways, first, it favors credit card companies by encouraging them to practice predatory lending. Previously, if a CC company issued too many cards to unemployed people at high rates, and they all file chapter 7, the company is going to stop doing this. It's the natural progression of the market. But with the new restrictions, the company is no longer discouraged from these practices. The second way this favors corporations is that they deliberately ignored any kind of legislation for business bankruptcy. Why don't they see this as a problem? Why is it just the private citizens that are abusing bankruptcy, and not Donald Trump, who declares bankruptcy as a way to keep his businesses profitable. (note, this is conjecture, although, he's declared bankruptcy several times, and he's still filthy stinkin rich)

Finally, if we want to get into what the Bible says about debt, there's always Deutoronomy 15:
"At the end of every seven years you shall grant a remission of debts. And this is the manner of remission: every creditor shall release what the has loaned to his neighbor; he shall not exact it of his neighbor and his brother, because the Lord's remission has been proclaimed."

And as far as using religion generally, Christianity specifically, I agree, both parties see the Christian voting "bloc" as a comodity to be won. However, I believe that the Republicans are too quick to use Christianity as a tool to get people behind completely secular ideas. And I think that the Christian community, by and large, is too trusting of them to do what they say they will. Now if someone wants to argue Conservative Vs. Liberal, I'm fine with that, and I would never doubt a person's Conservative Bona Fides. But I think it's important to be able to separate a lot of the policies of this administration from Christianity. The privatization of SS is not a Christian issue. The tax cuts, budget deficits, border security, free trade, bankruptcy, tort reform, and the war are not Christian issues. These are the issues that the GOP focuses on, and I know a lot of loyal republicans who disagree with the GOP on most if not all of those issues, but vote Republican because it's a good Christian party.

[JerryLove]

Finally, if we want to get into what the Bible says about debt, there's always Deutoronomy 15:
"At the end of every seven years you shall grant a remission of debts. And this is the manner of remission: every creditor shall release what the has loaned to his neighbor; he shall not exact it of his neighbor and his brother, because the Lord's remission has been proclaimed."

Forgot about that one... Travis is calling it stealing.