[JerryLove]

Mind you. I am not speaking of "free" food and housing. The Bible does say " he who does not work will not eat."

Of course, the Bible does also say to leave the poor free food:

"'When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.'" - Leviticus 23:22

[+Donny]

Gleaning was work.

[JerryLove]

Gleaning was work.

So "[don't] gather the [works] of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and the alien."

Gleanings are the grains after they have been cut by a reaper.

I suspect in this case it's a statement not to go back and pick up the piecies missed in the "grab and cut" method by which the bulk was taken from the field.

[+Donny]

Yeah, I understand, but it's not like they just had huge stores of grain that they just sort of left out for all the poor to eat, so I don't see it as at all in conflict with Paul in Thessalonians.

[Danny]

Forgive me, oh Bill, for forsaking your commandment and reviving the (sort of) dead thread. You cannot fathom how bored I am right now.

Anyway, I think a pretty strong case can be made Biblically for economic liberalism. Here are some excerpts from an AIM conversation I had with one of my friends a while ago that I found to be pretty convincing. I'd just try to repeat what he said in a nutshell, but he put it much better than I could (in fact, I have tried a few times and failed, haha).

(21:28:22) Dan: you know what bothers me?
(21:28:31) Me: What's that?
(21:28:49) Dan: people who are against socialism, and their reason is they dont want people telling them what to do with their money....
(21:28:57) Dan: you see... it's not their money
(21:29:09) Dan: in fact, money doesnt really exist if you think about it
(21:29:29) Me: Expound.
(21:30:15) Dan: I think Christ made a remarkable statement when He said to give to Ceasar what was Ceasar's, this was in the face of oppressive taxation, the kind of stuff that caused people to revolt and start our country.
(21:30:38) Dan: See, the government makes money, and it carefully balances how much they produce and destroy
(21:30:56) Dan: this is because money, and the whole economy, is just a mindset
(21:31:15) Dan: it's just a concept of perceived value of goods and services
(21:32:03) Me: Right.
(21:32:39) Dan: so the job of the government is to govern, to make sure it is distributed rightly for the benefit of the people (romans, God has appointed the government official to do you good)
(21:33:54) Dan: when they give control of this power to large corporations in a capitalist society, they allow them to do as they please, they are in fact, no longer governing what happens to it, they are refraining from their job
(21:34:37) Dan: and so you get a world market with unfair trade policies, and the exact same goods made by the same means set at ridiculously different values with the workers getting ridiculously unbalanced pay
(21:35:50) Dan: money...it's all just a concept for the benefit of society

...

(22:25:47) Dan: did you ever notice... * Ephesians 5:3
But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.
(22:26:05) Dan: I noticed that while ago, but I'm only starting to think of it in political stances
(22:26:28) Me: I've seen verses against greed before, yes.
(22:26:40) Dan: not even a hint...

...

(22:49:41) Dan: Acts 20:33 I coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel. 34You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with me. 35In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'
(22:50:25) Dan: ok so then they say that means it's the christian's duty to do that, we can't legislate it...
(22:50:35) Me: Yes, yes.
(22:50:41) Me: "It's not the role of the government."
(22:50:54) Dan: to that I say, we can legislate laws for our morality, but not that of our greatest commandments?
(22:51:34) Dan: and what did John say to the crowds about the time of the coming of the Lord?
Luke 3:11 And he answered them, "Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise."
(22:52:31) Me: I think most theonomists would answer that the Bible specifically dictates the role of government in punishing evil, etc., but the role of charity is delegated to the individual and the Church, not the government.
(22:56:16) Dan: yeah right, what does jerimiah say about the kings of it's time?
Jeremiah 22:15-17
15 Are you a king because you excel in cedar? Your own father, did he not eat and drink? He administered justice and righteousness, then it went well with him.
16 He took up the case of the poor and needy, then it went well. Is this not what it means to know Me? [This is] the LORD's declaration.
17 But you have eyes and heart for nothing except your own unjust gain, shedding innocent blood and committing extortion and oppression.
(22:57:16) Dan: Proverbs 31:1 The words of King Lemuel, an oracle that his mother taught him:

8 Speak up for those who have no voice, for the justice of all who are dispossessed.
9 Speak up, judge righteously, and defend the cause of the oppressed and needy.
(22:58:12) Dan: proverbs 3:27 When it is in your power, don't withhold good from the one to whom it is due. 28 Don't say to your neighbor, "Go away! Come back later. I'll give it tomorrow"—when it is there with you.
(23:03:21) Dan: Proverbs 14:31The one who oppresses the poor insults their Maker, but one who is kind to the needy honors Him.
Proverbs 21:13 The one who shuts his ears to the cry of the poor will himself also call out and not be answered.
Proverbs 22:16 Oppressing the poor to enrich oneself, and giving to the rich—both lead only to poverty.
22 Don't rob a poor man because he is poor, and don't crush the oppressed at the gate, 23 for the LORD will take up their case and will plunder those who plunder them.
Proverbs 28:3 A destitute leader who oppresses the poor is like a driving rain that leaves no food
Proverbs 28:27 The one who gives to the poor will not be in need, but one who turns his eyes away will receive many curses.
Proverbs 29:7 The righteous person knows the rights of the poor, but the wicked one does not understand these concerns.
14 A king who judges the poor with fairness— his throne will be established forever.
(23:03:44) Dan: People think Jesus was changing God's tune... not the case
(23:05:18) Dan: check out Isaiah 58 to see what fastign and observing the sabbath is supposed to look like, or look at how pissed God is with everyone in Amos for how they treated the poor

Thoughts?

[+Donny]

(21:30:38) Dan: See, the government makes money, and it carefully balances how much they produce and destroy
(21:30:56) Dan: this is because money, and the whole economy, is just a mindset
(21:31:15) Dan: it's just a concept of perceived value of goods and services
(21:32:03) Me: Right.
(21:32:39) Dan: so the job of the government is to govern, to make sure it is distributed rightly for the benefit of the people (romans, God has appointed the government official to do you good)
(21:33:54) Dan: when they give control of this power to large corporations in a capitalist society, they allow them to do as they please, they are in fact, no longer governing what happens to it, they are refraining from their job
(21:34:37) Dan: and so you get a world market with unfair trade policies, and the exact same goods made by the same means set at ridiculously different values with the workers getting ridiculously unbalanced pay
(21:35:50) Dan: money...it's all just a concept for the benefit of society

This is a pretty poor argument. Money is not simply created and than given out; the process of distribution and attainment of wealth is a hell of a lot more complicated than that. Furthermore, he never proved that it was the government's job to distribute money, so this argument fails on two points.

(22:49:41) Dan: Acts 20:33 I coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel. 34You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with me. 35In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'
(22:50:25) Dan: ok so then they say that means it's the christian's duty to do that, we can't legislate it...
(22:50:35) Me: Yes, yes.
(22:50:41) Me: "It's not the role of the government."
(22:50:54) Dan: to that I say, we can legislate laws for our morality, but not that of our greatest commandments?
(22:51:34) Dan: and what did John say to the crowds about the time of the coming of the Lord?
Luke 3:11 And he answered them, "Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise."
(22:52:31) Me: I think most theonomists would answer that the Bible specifically dictates the role of government in punishing evil, etc., but the role of charity is delegated to the individual and the Church, not the government.
(22:56:16) Dan: yeah right, what does jerimiah say about the kings of it's time?
Jeremiah 22:15-17
15 Are you a king because you excel in cedar? Your own father, did he not eat and drink? He administered justice and righteousness, then it went well with him.
16 He took up the case of the poor and needy, then it went well. Is this not what it means to know Me? [This is] the LORD's declaration.
17 But you have eyes and heart for nothing except your own unjust gain, shedding innocent blood and committing extortion and oppression.
(22:57:16) Dan: Proverbs 31:1 The words of King Lemuel, an oracle that his mother taught him:

8 Speak up for those who have no voice, for the justice of all who are dispossessed.
9 Speak up, judge righteously, and defend the cause of the oppressed and needy.
(22:58:12) Dan: proverbs 3:27 When it is in your power, don't withhold good from the one to whom it is due. 28 Don't say to your neighbor, "Go away! Come back later. I'll give it tomorrow"—when it is there with you.
(23:03:21) Dan: Proverbs 14:31The one who oppresses the poor insults their Maker, but one who is kind to the needy honors Him.
Proverbs 21:13 The one who shuts his ears to the cry of the poor will himself also call out and not be answered.
Proverbs 22:16 Oppressing the poor to enrich oneself, and giving to the rich—both lead only to poverty.
22 Don't rob a poor man because he is poor, and don't crush the oppressed at the gate, 23 for the LORD will take up their case and will plunder those who plunder them.
Proverbs 28:3 A destitute leader who oppresses the poor is like a driving rain that leaves no food
Proverbs 28:27 The one who gives to the poor will not be in need, but one who turns his eyes away will receive many curses.
Proverbs 29:7 The righteous person knows the rights of the poor, but the wicked one does not understand these concerns.
14 A king who judges the poor with fairness— his throne will be established forever.
(23:03:44) Dan: People think Jesus was changing God's tune... not the case
(23:05:18) Dan: check out Isaiah 58 to see what fastign and observing the sabbath is supposed to look like, or look at how pissed God is with everyone in Amos for how they treated the poor

His appeals here to civil government defending the poor and needy are never in the context of welfare. It seems that such passages speak of judges being fair in their justice and not buckling to riches.
Of course, there is another passage, which I cannot think of off the top of my head, that says judges are not supposed to judge for the poor just because they are poor. Judges are supposed to be impartial.

["BrooksB"]

Originally Posted by Blaircafe

AH, the hypocrasy of the "conservative" christian. They won't vote for a pro-abortion or pro gay marraige candidate because it is against the Bible, but when the governmet tries to enact policies for the Biblical purpose of caring for the poor they cry foul. The federal government is the only institution with the ability to reach every american. If you leaqve these issues up to the states, there will be a wide varieyt of care for the poor across this nation, as there was before federal laws were enacted.

If you leave the issue up to the states and allow them all to pursue their own policy, at least then you'd have more to compare to. Ie, if Tennessee's policy is working great but New York's is pretty rough, then New York can see what they're doing wrong in comparison to Tennessee. If it was federal, all the states would have the same strategy. Am I the only one that sees the folly in this? A single strategy could prove immensely successful in one state while impotent in another.