[Epaphras]

Originally Posted by cuziamthecaptai

So why not just all immigrate to a particular start or region?

Or we (the church) can treat gay marriage as we have treated divorce, second-marriages, cohabitation, etc. - as no big deal.

Honestly, when was the last time you heard a sermon against divorce except for unrepentant infidelity? How many of our pastors have married two people who are both divorced and their spouse is still living? Is that not sin according to Christ?

It's all or nothing for me - either preach against all of it, or shut up about all of it and don't pick and choose based on what's in the headlines. Sheesh.

_Epaphras

NOTE: Cuziamthecaptai, this post really isn't directed at you It's directed at Christian "leadership" in this country.

[cuziamthecaptai]

Originally Posted by Epaphras

Or we (the church) can treat gay marriage as we have treated divorce, second-marriages, cohabitation, etc. - as no big deal.

Honestly, when was the last time you heard a sermon against divorce except for unrepentant infidelity? How many of our pastors have married two people who are both divorced and their spouse is still living? Is that not sin according to Christ?

It's all or nothing for me - either preach against all of it, or shut up about all of it and don't pick and choose based on what's in the headlines. Sheesh.

_Epaphras

NOTE: Cuziamthecaptai, this post really isn't directed at you It's directed at Christian "leadership" in this country.

Well tell that to your friends
(http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...on=6.0.12.1040)
What we see here, is a growing federal government.
As it grows, there will be more fighting between the seculars and the religious.
So what's going to happen?
The way I see it-- either one side will dominate, there will be a mass exodus, or the country will split in twine.

I mean, I can possibly understand how the religious right eventually accepted that it was wrong to discrimiate against the Jews and interracial marriage. But I don't see how they'll ever accept gay marriage and a federal sanction of abortions. What's the last straw for the religious right?

[Epaphras]

Originally Posted by cuziamthecaptai

Well tell that to your friends
(http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...on=6.0.12.1040)

That's too bad. I only ask that you don't judge Christians by their extreme fringe lunatic groups, and instead by those of us you have daily contact with, such as those of us in this forum or at your job, instead of an obscure group you've never heard of filled with people you've never met.

What we see here, is a growing federal government.

Inevitable.

As it grows, there will be more fighting between the seculars and the religious.

That's not the way it should be:

1 Thessalonians 4
10 But we urge you, brothers... 11 ...to aspire to live quietly, and to mind your own affairs... 12 so that you may live properly before outsiders...

The way I see it-- either one side will dominate, there will be a mass exodus, or the country will split in twine.

I doubt if it will come to that, but there may be an ideological "mass exodus" or "split", rather than a physical one. I don't think either side wants to be responsible for another civil war...

But I don't see how they'll ever accept gay marriage and a federal sanction of abortions. What's the last straw for the religious right?

It is my belief that there will be no political solutions to spiritual problems.

[nolidad]

I mean, I can possibly understand how the religious right eventually accepted that it was wrong to discrimiate against the Jews and interracial marriage. But I don't see how they'll ever accept gay marriage and a federal sanction of abortions. What's the last straw for the religious right?

Well the first two you mentioned were wrong biblically to begin with and so some beleivers jsut took a long time to obey God.

Gay marriage and abortion other than to save the life of the mother (not mental health but things like tubal pregnancies and trhe like) I just don't see any bible beleiving Chritian saying is right for a nation to sanction by law.

Unfortunately the militant religious right is taking things too far by their sense of revolt.

The way I see it-- either one side will dominate, there will be a mass exodus, or the country will split in twine.

Well I beleive the country will be split--much the same way slavery split--escept this one won't be drawn as easily as pro and anti slave states. And for the record I do beleive secularist thought will win and Americas will have legalized gay marriage --but it will come at a great price to the soundness of this nation before God.

It is my belief that there will be no political solutions to spiritual problems.

Epapharas-- I agree withyou totally-- though in America we beleivers have a right to participate and seek to influence Govt. It is not our mandate or mission from Jesus. If we win hearts--we don't need to influence laws--the populace will do it naturaaly (or should we say supernaturally)??

[cuziamthecaptai]

Originally Posted by Epaphras

That's too bad. I only ask that you don't judge Christians by their extreme fringe lunatic groups, and instead by those of us you have daily contact with, such as those of us in this forum or at your job, instead of an obscure group you've never heard of filled with people you've never met.

It seems as though these fringe lunatic groups are in bed with the government. I mean, how else do you explain why DeLay is still in power?

Originally Posted by Epaphras

Inevitable.

As a pretty starch conservative (economic conservative/fringe libertarian), I feel distressed by this, but I do agree it's for the most part inevitable.

Originally Posted by Epaphras

That's not the way it should be:

1 Thessalonians 4
10 But we urge you, brothers... 11 ...to aspire to live quietly, and to mind your own affairs... 12 so that you may live properly before outsiders...

Well, 'shoulda, woulda, coulda' -- seems the religious right is not taking 1 Thessalonais 4 to heart. I think there are enough of them to really cause a mess of things.

Originally Posted by Epaphras

I doubt if it will come to that, but there may be an ideological "mass exodus" or "split", rather than a physical one. I don't think either side wants to be responsible for another civil war...

I just don't know. I can see where christian exodus is coming from. If I were a fundy, I wouldn't want to be in a country that supports abortion, homosexual marriage, divorce nor would I want my hard earned money supporting secular schools. The fundies are going to keep tring to ban gay marriage and abortions, and I really doubt they will succeed. They may either then just accept it (as with interracial marriage) or move out.

Originally Posted by Epaphras

It is my belief that there will be no political solutions to spiritual problems.

Commendable. and this used to be the consensus years ago, but clearly I think we are seeing a big change taking place.

[nolidad]

Commendable. and this used to be the consensus years ago, but clearly I think we are seeing a big change taking place.

a sad but very human knee jerk type reaction to "liberal" viewpoints gaining in popularity. Too many beleivers are too focused on what human Govt. should or should not do as oppossed to what we as the church are commissioned to do.

I know for a fact that beleives in china and Islam countries do not go about like too many American christians trying to have a Christian revolution. NOr did my brethren in Ancient Rome prior to Constantine.

[cuziamthecaptai]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Well the first two you mentioned were wrong biblically to begin with and so some beleivers jsut took a long time to obey God.

Both the ban on interracial marriage and discrimination against Jews were sanctioned by the religious on account of what's in the bible. Remember, interracial marriage bans were only removed back in 1967 at the extreme admonishment of the religious right.

Originally Posted by nolidad

Gay marriage and abortion other than to save the life of the mother (not mental health but things like tubal pregnancies and trhe like) I just don't see any bible beleiving Chritian saying is right for a nation to sanction by law.

Have you spoken with someone of the religious left?

Originally Posted by nolidad

Unfortunately the militant religious right is taking things too far by their sense of revolt.

I would leave. If Californians decided the US was too religious and wanted to be their own secular nation where gay marriage was okay, pot was okay, TV wasn't censured, and evolution was taught in schools, I'd be content to help CA seperate.

Originally Posted by nolidad

Well I beleive the country will be split--much the same way slavery split--escept this one won't be drawn as easily as pro and anti slave states.

Hard to say. Most people will always be 'middle of the road.'

Originally Posted by nolidad

And for the record I do beleive secularist thought will win and Americas will have legalized gay marriage --but it will come at a great price to the soundness of this nation before God.

Uh-huh Tell me, will god destroy San Fran a la Gomorrah? If by less sound do you mean God will make our crops fail? Don't you think Jesus should judge man based upon the content of his heart/faith rather than the country he lives in? What's with God judging cities/nations rather than the individual?

Originally Posted by nolidad

Epapharas-- I agree withyou totally-- though in America we beleivers have a right to participate and seek to influence Govt. It is not our mandate or mission from Jesus. If we win hearts--we don't need to influence laws--the populace will do it naturaaly (or should we say supernaturally)??

Well then you guys need to rise up and let them know that. the only christians I see on TV are those who believe it's their God-given duty to constitutionally ban abortion/gay marriage/removal of feeding tubes.

[nolidad]

Both the ban on interracial marriage and discrimination against Jews were sanctioned by the religious on account of what's in the bible. Remember, interracial marriage bans were only removed back in 1967 at the extreme admonishment of the religious right.

Well I would counter that it was a misinterpretation of whats in Scripture but that is another rgument for another time.

Have you spoken with someone of the religious left?

Several and they are either ambivelant or for legalizing gay marriages (the congregational church 100 yards from my family room window has married gays) But the religious left generally do not hold to har beleif in Scripture. They like the book but normally do not hold it to be God inspired.

I would leave. If Californians decided the US was too religious and wanted to be their own secular nation where gay marriage was okay, pot was okay, TV wasn't censured, and evolution was taught in schools, I'd be content to help CA seperate.

Well we would hasve about thirty new nation states with all the dividing people have wanted to do for vartious reasons. I imagine that those on the extrreme end of the right would call me a flaming liberal!!!

Hard to say. Most people will always be 'middle of the road.'

Historically yeah--but more and more there at least seems to be a polarizing taking place in the nation. Just a look at politics shows a hardening of the "wings" with much vitriol on both sides.

I long for the days of the kennedy-nixon differences. They were vastly different but both thought the other had honorable intentions in their desire for the presidency--they just thought the others position wasn't the best "vision" for America.

Uh-huh Tell me, will god destroy San Fran a la Gomorrah? If by less sound do you mean God will make our crops fail? Don't you think Jesus should judge man based upon the content of his heart/faith rather than the country he lives in? What's with God judging cities/nations rather than the individual?

Well Scripture is clear that God does judge nations for their wickedness, as well as indiviuals. What form Gods impending Judgment on America will take is anyones guess.

Well then you guys need to rise up and let them know that. the only christians I see on TV are those who believe it's their God-given duty to constitutionally ban abortion/gay marriage/removal of feeding tubes.

Hery if we can't convince you to become a Christian--how do you think we can convince a fellow beleiver who has a misguided zeal for something that "appears" right but in reality is not what God would have us to do??? Answer that and you will do the church a favor by toning down some of the misguided rhetoric we use.

But don't get me wroing-- abortion is wrong and gay marriage is wrong-- and I feel Terry Schaivo should stillbe alive, I also beleive Christians in America have a right to try to onfluence legislation, but not in manh of the ways the extreme right does it.

[Epaphras]

Originally Posted by cuziamthecaptai

Both the ban on interracial marriage and discrimination against Jews were sanctioned by the religious on account of what's in the bible. Remember, interracial marriage bans were only removed back in 1967 at the extreme admonishment of the religious right.

Keep in mind that these were skewd interpretations of obscure passages taken completely out of context. Lotta that going around these days...

the only christians I see on TV are those who believe it's their God-given duty to constitutionally ban abortion/gay marriage/removal of feeding tubes.

Well, it's not.

Again, I hope you don't judge all Christians by the ones you see on TV (although most of the time they ask for it), but rather by the caliber of those you come into daily contact with.