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-   -   Holy Spirit gifts, speaking in tongues and the like (http://www.christianguitar.org/forums/t96422/)

4Glory 02-21-2005 07:02 PM

Holy Spirit gifts, speaking in tongues and the like
 
HI everyone,
I was recently talking to a penicostal friend of mine who decided she was going to get baptized. Thats all well and good but then she told me her best friend just got baptized and came out of the water speaking in toungs...
this leads me to my question:

Have the holy spirit gifts ceased? I was always under the impression that they did and do not happen anymore and are not nessasry for salvation...does anyone have any scirtpure to support this?
Or could I be wrong and they still do exsist and happen today? Any scritpure for that?
Thanks!

Lightknight 02-21-2005 07:05 PM

There really isn't any scripture on it. I'm actually surprised that the idea of cessationism has ever entered the minds of Christians. Here, allow me to show you the most recent thread on this topic.

http://www.christianguitar.org/forum...ad.php?t=93434

The question seems not to be whether the gifts have ceased, but rather how they should be practiced.

4Glory 02-21-2005 07:41 PM

thanks!
just a quick question..what is cessationism?

Lightknight 02-21-2005 07:45 PM

Cessationism is the belief that the gifts have ceased. Non-cessationism is of course the opposite.

mlqurgw 02-22-2005 12:05 AM

I guess this is a good place for you and I to debate this Gavin. It seems it won't lie down.
4Glory; I believe that the gifts have ceased for Biblical reasons. Of course Gavin disagrees. He has wanted me to discuss this with him another time but I declined. I guess I will have to now. I hope our discussion will be of help to you. :) I will try to get my thoughts together and post them maybe tommorrow.

4Glory 02-22-2005 07:48 AM

Hey ML, yeah that would be awesome, I think I would find your discussion very profitable indeed. I'll add whatever I can come up with but I don't know too much about the subject (hence I started the thread) I know have a good excuse to dig into it.

Like I said, I was under the impression that they have stopped, but I'm willing to be shown differently with scripture or have it confirmed.
Thanks.

bobthecockroach 02-22-2005 09:02 AM

It should be clarified that there are more gifts of the Spirit mentioned than the "miraculous" ones. Cessationists do not believe that these "non-miraculous" gifts have ceased.

Gracie Love 02-22-2005 09:12 AM

This is the verse that most cessationist quote to say the gifts of the spirit don't exist anymore.

1 Cornithians 13
8Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.


Most believe that the Bible is the perfect. I personally believe that Jesus is the perfect it speaks of.

I do believe that most of the people that speak in tongues do fake it, and a good many churches actually miss use them.

How did you come to the belief that the gifts have ceased?

SilverNitrate 02-22-2005 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightknight
There really isn't any scripture on it. I'm actually surprised that the idea of cessationism has ever entered the minds of Christians.

Why is it surprising? When I look around... who has these gifts? Only the Pentecostals. If these gifts are still around today I'm almost certain that people in other denominations would have them as well. Since no other denomination receives these gifts, I'm forced to believe that these gifts do not truely exist anymore.

Gracie Love 02-22-2005 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverNitrate
Why is it surprising? When I look around... who has these gifts? Only the Pentecostals. If these gifts are still around today I'm almost certain that people in other denominations would have them as well. Since no other denomination receives these gifts, I'm forced to believe that these gifts do not truely exist anymore.

I am not Pentacostal, I have spoken in tongues. I spoke in tongues, when I didn't even believe in them. I also witnessed some Roman Catholics speak in tongues. There are many denomations that believe and speak in tongues not just Pentacostals.

4Glory 02-22-2005 01:11 PM

You spoke in tounges? What was it like? HOw did you know you were doing it? I take it you obviously wern't faking it, so did it help you in any way or was it just wierd?
I'm interested to find out.

I came to that concusion not on the basis of scritpure, but just like someone else already said, I only have heard/seen penicostals doing it, and since I personaly know some penicostals who have miniature zapping things on thier hands that shock ppl when the shake hands, people thinking its the holy spirit or something, I just figured that speaking in tounges was another penicostal gimick..?

Dice 02-22-2005 02:32 PM

Quote:

Why is it surprising? When I look around... who has these gifts? Only the Pentecostals. If these gifts are still around today I'm almost certain that people in other denominations would have them as well. Since no other denomination receives these gifts, I'm forced to believe that these gifts do not truely exist anymore.
1) God isn't going to force your mouth to move and try it, I'd say people who believe in it already are the only ones willing to even try and find out.

2) If someone in another denomination receives these gifts who is going to change their mind, their denomination or them? Naturally they'll change denominations.

And BTW yes that means I think if people say their mouth just started jabbering on one day it's probably not tounges. The Spirit is one of self control and if you speak in tounges it will be of your own willingness and choice.

Lightknight 02-22-2005 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gracie Love
This is the verse that most cessationist quote to say the gifts of the spirit don't exist anymore.

1 Cornithians 13
8Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.


Most believe that the Bible is the perfect. I personally believe that Jesus is the perfect it speaks of.

I do believe that most of the people that speak in tongues do fake it, and a good many churches actually miss use them.

How did you come to the belief that the gifts have ceased?

Well, there's also the point that it says that knowledge will pass away. Considering that we still have knowledge, I'd assume that the Bible isn't what it's refering to. lol, I could ask any kid what they thought this verse means and they would immediately say, "When Jesus returns". You'd practically have to be a theologian to get this wrong. Also, Paul goes on to say,

1Cr 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Cr 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


Clearly he is talking about a being. Unless the Bible has a face that I'm unaware of.

(No, I'm not arguing with misti, I'm just supplementing and strengthing her arguement against the horrid misuse of scripture)

Lightknight 02-22-2005 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlqurgw
I guess this is a good place for you and I to debate this Gavin. It seems it won't lie down.
4Glory; I believe that the gifts have ceased for Biblical reasons. Of course Gavin disagrees. He has wanted me to discuss this with him another time but I declined. I guess I will have to now. I hope our discussion will be of help to you. :) I will try to get my thoughts together and post them maybe tommorrow.

Technically, all cessationists would say they disagree with the gifts still being here for biblical reasons.

Sean 02-22-2005 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dice
1) God isn't going to force your mouth to move and try it, I'd say people who believe in it already are the only ones willing to even try and find out.

Try and find out? Thats a very interesting way to view GIFTS from the Spirit.

Quote:

2) If someone in another denomination receives these gifts who is going to change their mind, their denomination or them? Naturally they'll change denominations.
Being that isn't an issue plaguing non-charismatic churches would indicate maybe the Spirit only gives certain gifts to certain churches....which is very suspicious at best.

Quote:

if you speak in tounges it will be of your own willingness and choice.
1 Corinthians 12:11 (New American Standard Bible)
But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

It appears that speaking in tongues comes from the Spirit's will and NOT our will and choice.


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