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-   -   the future of tab and reading music? (http://www.christianguitar.org/forums/t188577/)

mulletman 08-01-2010 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kentl (Post 3579525)
1,agreed i asumed it would be a lot eayser to find

2. why? if i cant find it your saying i wrong find evrdince im wrong

i cant find evdince that your great grandfather marrid a gypise dose that mean he did not?
no
thats just plan dumb

3. see # 2

4. i said my ophion is that tab is beter a fact is i think its beter
dose not mean evrey one thinks its beter

its my ophion that demon hunter is an awsome band
its a fact i think they are

there is a defreints

When you claim something, the burden of proof is on you. Game over.

"There are lots of big musicians who don't know how to read music."

"Um, no. Prove it"

"No you prove it!"

That just flat out is not how you debate, Shawn.

thesteve 08-01-2010 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kentl (Post 3579527)
i dont know
but he is pro (gets paid to play)

Gets paid to play at church, or gets paid to play and relies on that for survival?
Quote:

but you said all pros are supouse to read other wise they wont last long

it seems the big bands have
When did I say this? I don't remember saying this.
Quote:

and about the song
you whold not need to have a stander msuic

since you know the song

there is no reasson for it
If I composed the song and need an ensemble to perform it, I definitely need to put it in standard notation.

Kentl 08-01-2010 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phantom Mullet (Post 3579526)
lol. Seriously. Just.... lol.

why?

a tab dose match up with the guitar so you know what to play


Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phantom Mullet (Post 3579526)
This argument is silly.

E---------12---------

Was that the 12th fret? Or frets 1 and 2 played in rapid succession?

simple its
12
(if the tab is done the way its sopuse to be

a - means its another note


that be the same if someone put a dot on the botem and then put a dot that seems almost right next to it maybe not
which is it? together or not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phantom Mullet (Post 3579526)
Knowing the key is the difference between knowing what the heck you're playing, and not having a clue.



Oh? And which band is that?

there are pletny guitist who admit they ahve no idea abotu msuic theroy or keys
so you dont need to know keys


you should show me since you where the guys first saying pros NEED to know it

show me proof

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phantom Mullet (Post 3579528)
When you claim something, the burden of proof is on you. Game over.

"There are lots of big musicians who don't know how to read music."

"Um, no. Prove it"

"No you prove it!"

That just flat out is not how you debate, Shawn.

but you guys where the first guys to say to be a pro you are expsectd to read and every pro dose

prove to me every pro dose

thesteve 08-01-2010 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kentl (Post 3579530)
there are pletny guitist who admit they ahve no idea abotu msuic theroy or keys
so you dont need to know keys


you should show me since you where the guys first saying pros NEED to know it

show me proof

I actually have trouble thinking of any professional guitarists that don't at least have a rudimentary understanding of music theory and key signatures. I'm pretty sure even the Edge (from U2) who is often the butt of music theory jokes knows a little bit of the theory behind what he's doing.

Quote:

but you guys where the first guys to say to be a pro you are expsectd to read and every pro dose

prove to me every pro dose
Can you go through the thread and find the post where someone says this? I think I've read every post and I don't recall seeing this once, but I may have missed it.

Kentl 08-01-2010 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainer. (Post 3579478)
Shawn, you really don't seem to understand that your methods of learning songs off of tabs does not, and will not ever, work in a professional setting. You walk into a rehearsal, you get a bunch of music sheets, and they tell you "the gig is in a week, we're playing everything just like it's written". And at that rehearsal, you better know how to read and play your part, or else you're not gonna have a job anymore.

There's no recordings to listen to. There's no online tab that is the same as what the composer of the music for the gig wrote out. There's nothing except the sheets of music you're given, and you gotta make it work.

Simply put, Shawn, you don't know anything about how important and integral standard notation is to professional music. You're not going to convince any one of us professional working musicians that we don't have to use standard notation. Because we know we do need to use standard notation, and we expect others in our industry to use standard notation as well.

this right here is who said it
most fo you go aroudn this line if you cant read msuic ytou wont last
and thats sipley not true
(i thgout it was you but i got you and him confused)
Quote:

Originally Posted by thesteve (Post 3579532)
I actually have trouble thinking of any professional guitarists that don't at least have a rudimentary understanding of music theory and key signatures. I'm pretty sure even the Edge (from U2) who is often the butt of music theory jokes knows a little bit of the theory behind what he's doing.

Can you go through the thread and find the post where someone says this? I think I've read every post and I don't recall seeing this once, but I may have missed it.


your telling me you know of no gutiist who plays by ear compeltly and never learnd theroy has never goten famous?

mulletman 08-01-2010 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kentl (Post 3579530)
why?

a tab dose match up with the guitar so you know what to play

And standard notation matches up with every instrument so you know what to play....



By the way, regarding your church guy who has been playing for 40 years. It's very possible to do something for 40 years and still suck at it. It's possible that he's not a 40-year-player, but a 1-year-player 40 times.

Kentl 08-01-2010 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phantom Mullet (Post 3579536)
And standard notation matches up with every instrument so you know what to play....



By the way, regarding your church guy who has been playing for 40 years. It's very possible to do something for 40 years and still suck at it. It's possible that he's not a 40-year-player, but a 1-year-player 40 times.

yes but just as its psoable to read msuci for 40 years and still suck at it

which means tab whold be ebetr in that case;)
but thats has nothign to do with the disisuion (that was a joke take it eazy)

thesteve 08-01-2010 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kentl (Post 3579535)
this right here is who said it
most fo you go aroudn this line if you cant read msuic ytou wont last
and thats sipley not true
(i thgout it was you but i got you and him confused)

What Jon is referring to (and correct me if I'm wrong Jon) is more along the lines of professional studio musicians. Effectively these are people that aren't writing their own music, but are playing music as it is given to them by the
people that write the music. This is different than say, Ben Folds, who writes all of his own songs on piano, but (at least according to him) can't read sheet music to save his life.

Quote:

your telling me you know of no gutiist who plays by ear compeltly and never learnd theroy has never goten famous?
Nope. Can you name one that did with a source that confirms it?

metropolis4 08-01-2010 10:29 PM

Kentl (Shawn?), you still didn't answer my questions...

Again, can you show me how tab would work for me in my situation? When I receive a score in standard notation and have to play it 5 minutes later?

if I can sight read standard notation fluidly and easily then why would I use tab? You still don't understand the point that standard notation isn't this crazy, complicated mysterious system to those of us who know it. In fact, for those of us who do know it, it is by far the simplest and most efficient way of reading and writing music.

It's like I said several time before. If you don't know Chinese and you look at a Chinese Bible it's going to look really complicated and difficult. However, if you know Chinese, then it isn't hard at all, it's quite simple. Same thing with standard notation. It isn't hard, you just don't know it so it looks and seems hard to you. But just because it's hard for you doesn't mean it's hard for everyone else, right?

I really wish you were in Colorado, I would love to let you tag along sometime so you could see what I'm talking about. If you came to one theatre production rehearsal with me you would instantly see what I'm talking about and why reading standard notation is mandatory in that setting and tab is simply nonsense.

You seem very defensive about this topic which is too bad because I think you could realy learn a lot here if you were more open to accepting that you can learn from other people's experience (especially those who have been doing this much longer than you have).
Believe it or not there are people around here who know what they are talking about and have had more playing experience in settings you haven't been in yet. Have you ever played in a pit orchestra? have you ever been hired to do studio work? Have you ever been hired professinally to play weddings, jazz combos etc? If not then how can you speak to the benefits of tab vs. music notation in those areas?

You simply don't understand what you're talking about, and that's ok, you haven't had the experiences yet. But you need to realize there are people around here who have had those experiences, and those people have a much better understanding of what they need to know to do their job than you do, and, if you let yourself, you could learn something from them.

There are area's of professional guitar playing that simply require the ability to read standard notation. If you can't read it, you don't get the gig. Music theatre is one of those areas. If I can't read standard notation, then they don't hire me because that is the system the rest of the ensemble will be using. Same thing goes for things like playing on cruise ships. Did you know that before you get a gig to play on cruise ships you have to pass a sight reading audition? And guess what, it's in standard notation, not tab. If you can't read it, they won't hire you, simple as that.

Like I said before, if your school has a jazz band, an orchestra or a pit orchestra for theatre productions go sit in on a rehearsal. See how they work, look at the guitar player's score (and the percussionists scores please). You will learn a lot from doing this and you will start to understand what we're talking about here and why standard notation is and will continue to be the language of music.

Rainer. 08-01-2010 10:34 PM

Shawn, this debate is ridiculous. You don't know what you're talking about at all when it comes to the professional music industry. The "big bands" you keep on talking about make up about maybe 0.5% of the people that work in the music industry. The rest of the 99.5% working full-time professional musicians are doing work that requires you to know how to read and write standard notation. Composers, arrangers, classical musicians, jazz musicians, teachers, pop music bands, show band musicians, and even rock musicians.

Kentl 08-01-2010 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by metropolis4 (Post 3579568)
if I can sight read standard notation fluidly and easily then why would I use tab? You still don't understand the point that standard notation isn't this crazy, complicated mysterious system to those of us who know it. In fact, for those of us who do know it, it is by far the simplest and most efficient way of reading and writing music.

how is it simplar and fastist?
dose not ame secne at all

Quote:

Originally Posted by metropolis4 (Post 3579568)
It's like I said several time before. If you don't know Chinese and you look at a Chinese Bible it's going to look really complicated and difficult. However, if you know Chinese, then it isn't hard at all, it's quite simple. Same thing with standard notation. It isn't hard, you just don't know it so it looks and seems hard to you. But just because it's hard for you doesn't mean it's hard for everyone else, right?

jsut becuse tab is suckey for you dose not mean its sucky for evrey one eles right?

and i do know how to read music

G
---F---------------------------------------------------------
E
--------D----------------------------------------------------
C
-----------------B--------------------------------------------
A
----------------------------G---------------------------------
F
---------------------------------------E---------------------
D
C
B
A
G
ect

that is easy what is hard is this
you have to combine them together (dots of notes that hoenslty get tasngled up when i look at them
and if they jump around to much its really hard to tell if its on the line or not more so if your rushing


thats really hard no mater who you are
Quote:

Originally Posted by metropolis4 (Post 3579568)
I really wish you were in Colorado, I would love to let you tag along sometime so you could see what I'm talking about. If you came to one theatre production rehearsal with me you would instantly see what I'm talking about and why reading standard notation is mandatory in that setting and tab is simply nonsense.

I've been to places where they teach clasical guitar they had the reaid music

i used songster learnd way faster then any of the fastest readers there

1. why do you need to comnucate with them? alll you need to know is your place and do your job
2. if one makes you learn faster then take it execely if you have 5 miuints tp learn somethoing
Quote:

Originally Posted by metropolis4 (Post 3579568)
You seem very defensive about this topic which is too bad because I think you could realy learn a lot here if you were more open to accepting that you can learn from other people's experience (especially those who have been doing this much longer than you have).
Believe it or not there are people around here who know what they are talking about and have had more playing experience in settings you haven't been in yet. Have you ever played in a pit orchestra? have you ever been hired to do studio work? Have you ever been hired professinally to play weddings, jazz combos etc? If not then how can you speak to the benefits of tab vs. music notation in those areas?

c ause i ahve peole who ahve done that
ive talked to guys who stuido work for a lving using power tabs
plus to me and most pepole i know tab is eazyer

as you guys said you wont even get it a chance becuse you need to know stander notaion why learn a new language

well why should i if i use tabs?
same thing
Quote:

Originally Posted by metropolis4 (Post 3579568)
You simply don't understand what you're talking about, and that's ok, you haven't had the experiences yet. But you need to realize there are people around here who have had those experiences, and those people have a much better understanding of what they need to know to do their job than you do, and, if you let yourself, you could learn something from them.

i know what I', talking about


which is eazyer? i dont ahve to be a pro to figure that out
picking coordinates form a grid that is alinged or one that is not and dose not follow the insutment you use?

i think the one that is alinged is
Quote:

Originally Posted by metropolis4 (Post 3579568)
There are area's of professional guitar playing that simply require the ability to read standard notation. If you can't read it, you don't get the gig. Music theatre is one of those areas. If I can't read standard notation, then they don't hire me because that is the system the rest of the ensemble will be using. Same thing goes for things like playing on cruise ships. Did you know that before you get a gig to play on cruise ships you have to pass a sight reading audition? And guess what, it's in standard notation, not tab. If you can't read it, they won't hire you, simple as that.

there are places that require you to ahve a really good ear dose that mean i ahve to know it?
no

the turth is

you guys are saying yeah but if this and this and that and that and then this hapeeind you whold ahve to

if i was the last man on earth i might have to start huting
but odds of it hapinign? very slim
Quote:

Originally Posted by metropolis4 (Post 3579568)
Like I said before, if your school has a jazz band, an orchestra or a pit orchestra for theatre productions go sit in on a rehearsal. See how they work, look at the guitar player's score (and the percussionists scores please). You will learn a lot from doing this and you will start to understand what we're talking about here and why standard notation is and will continue to be the language of music.

homescholled in the milde of no where
and besides the shool I went to before only had choir and they did not read music (or any public school)
now privet schools they did

metropolis4 08-01-2010 10:50 PM

You still haven't answered this question

Quote:

[Again, can you show me how tab would work for me in my situation? When I receive a score in standard notation and have to play it 5 minutes later?
If you say tab is better then show me how it would be better for me in my playing situation. Did you find those tabs I asked about yet?

Kentl 08-01-2010 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainer. (Post 3579569)
Shawn, this debate is ridiculous. You don't know what you're talking about at all when it comes to the professional music industry. The "big bands" you keep on talking about make up about maybe 0.5% of the people that work in the music industry. The rest of the 99.5% working full-time professional musicians are doing work that requires you to know how to read and write standard notation. Composers, arrangers, classical musicians, jazz musicians, teachers, pop music bands, show band musicians, and even rock musicians.

yes i do know

belive it or not you dont have to be a sucide bomber to know you wont make it out alive



just as i dont need to be a pro to know that
if i had a chooice of soemthing that dose not aling with my instument or something that dose and tells me evrey thing i need to do i will pick the 2nd one evrey time

mulletman 08-01-2010 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kentl (Post 3579572)
yes i do know

belive it or not you dont have to be a sucide bomber to know you wont make it out alive



just as i dont need to be a pro to know that
if i had a chooice of soemthing that dose not aling with my instument or something that dose and tells me evrey thing i need to do i will pick the 2nd one evrey time

lol.

Kentl 08-01-2010 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by metropolis4 (Post 3579571)
You still haven't answered this question



If you say tab is better then show me how it would be better for me in my playing situation. Did you find those tabs I asked about yet?

okay then i cant find them but that dose not prove anything

find me fadying away by demon hunter

waking the demon by Bullet For My Valentine

east to west by casting crowns

carry me down by demon hunter

all in standerd notation

you might find some but good luck

the point is both of them ahev things you wont find on it
even these bands that are "pro" you wont find the sheets then what do you do?

either use your ear or ur power tabs


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