two problems witht hat one


Rock bands do just fine with out stander music whets to stop any other band form doing it? :P you don’t need a common language


2 your by your self parcting because your at home (which is what most peole do when theyt pratice



why cant you comunicate with tab

i can do it just fine

one of you pick rythem guitar
and ill pick lead or the other way around we will ahve the sogn down pat
or even a defreint insutment


dont need stand languaghe

You're comparing two different things here.

The people arguing against you (Jon, Drew, Ben...everyone else) is coming from this from the perspective of professional playing.

You're saying, "what's wrong with tab in the bedroom?" For most amateur guitarists, tab is fine, but if you're a studio musician or playing in some other professional capacity, then being able to read standard notation is a requirement of the work.

To say "rock bands do fine without standard..." isn't fair on multiple levels, the simplest being that most rock bands write their own music. Whether or not they learned it from sheet or tab is irrelevant because they wrote it to begin with.

The "different instrument" argument doesn't fly either. If you are going to play the lead guitar part and I'm going to play the violin part, what form of notation are we going to use? If we're going to use tab, how am I going to know what "line 3 number 13" means?

Real musicians play music. Professional musicians read standard notation and play music.

When I was just starting out I had 2 things. Tab, and standard notation. And when I started playing everyone who was just a level above me recomended tabs. It wasnt till I got older that I started to realize how I had handicapped myself.

Tab isnt really as useful of a tool as you make it out to be. Its a crutch. Thats all.



Tab wont take over for reading music.

The shear variety of musical instruments in the world negates that possibility. Not all instruments can have a tab for them.

Infact, i would go so far as to say that Standard Notation is as close as a tab as you can get for Tuned-Percussion instruments (piano being the major one in that category). So, for those instruments, standard notation will never stop being the standard. Its the only way to transcribe music for those instruments.




Except those tabs are useless in a professional setting.

When I play in the choir at church Im handed a chord chart, with a melody transcribed in standard notation. From that I have to learn how to play my parts. My music minister is NEVER going to hand me a tab. When I say "never" I mean that there is no possibility that he will at any point in the future hand me a tab for guitar. He gives me sheet music, and I have to learn it.

And to be quite frank, tab is just a hinderance in that situation.



so with out any freak acdeints hands down


As a college student, who is studying for a degree in Music Composition, and eventually Music Performance/Guitar, it is absolutely critical that I read music. If not just for the ability to get jobs in the music industry, just to be able to pass my music classes, I need to know standard notation, and how to apply it to my instrument (and piano).


Its the most effective.

Its the most effective.

By the way, with your 2 caveats you commited a fallacy. You asked for an answer, and then tried to restrict possible answeres to those that fit your outlook. Fortuneately for me, I dont have to play that game, I play my own game.




Its easier for you because its all you know.

But what the rest of us are saying is that Standard Notation will not be replaced by Tab as the professional standard.

Maybe for garage bands, and guys sitting in their room jamming, tab will work, but for someone playing with other professionals, tab will NEVER be standardized.


You stated as a thesis that tab would replace standard notation. You made an asertion, and claimed it as fact. You literally asked for the response that you got.


Which rock bands?

I know some rock bands were all the members read standard notation.


I can garuntee that if you aproach a pianist with guitar tab he will look at you like you are speaking another language. Unless he is familiar with the instrument, you will in effect be speaking gibberish as far as he is concerned.






Lets say you had a German, a Chinese, a Vietnamese, an Itallian, a Spaniard, a Mexican, a Frenchman, a Russian, and an Englishman all in the same room, and they all only spoke the language native to their home country. Now, you try to have a conversation with them.

I garuntee it wont get far.

Now, what if those same people all had something in common, what if they all were familiar with Latin (a large part of musical notation is Latin).

Now, all these people who speak different languages can unite around a single common language and have a meaningful conversation.

That is what Standard Notation is to music. Every instrument should be viewed as a different language to be spoken. But Standard Notation is the one thing they all have in common. With standard notation all of these instruments can be united around a single piece of music and perform it effectively as a unit.

Tab, being exclusive to strung/fretted instruments, doesnt share that universality.

i know pletly of pros that dont know how to read they do it all by ear you dont need to read to be pro
when you started you did not have a place like songster and tabs where almsot laways wrong

Tab isnt really as useful of a tool as you make it out to be. Its a crutch. Thats all.







expslin how

if i know how to play ode to joy whats to stop me form going up there and playing with a big bamd?

like i said the older pepole belive
"real msucusiosn read music not tba"
they are stuck in the old ways









when i leanrd devison and substaction they taught me one way
i did it an toher
(my way got the same anwser it was just defreint form the norm)
its no defreint form tabs and reading msuic



prove it with fact not ophion other wise we have nothign to gain by siting here debating it
if you had said its they was your soupose to do it

then you whold of [ropved my point that you belive
"real msucuions dont use tabs"

i was helping you out there
and you anwnserd the way i wanted and did play my game
what ever the heck that means





wrogn i know how to read the E and B stirng very wel

and fi you gave me a choic i wold chocie tabsd evrey single time
do you think those famous rock abnds know how to read msuic?
do you think the jonas brothers do? even if they do do they use it?
i admit i dont enoguhg about a band to tell you but i ganrite

you can be a pro just by using tabs
they are

go to a christin retreat
what where they using? tabs
my chruch
what dose the guitist use? tabs
can he read msuic? no
is he a pro? yes

in the 60's almsot evrey one used reaidng msuic now more and more are suing tabs




what i eman is you can use what ever form to learn your part i will use guitar tabs and we can do it very eazy (depning on how hard the song is of course)

I would actually be surprised if the Jonas Brothers couldn't read music above at least minimally basic level.Once again we're talking about two different levels of "pro". When I play at church (and I play well enough that if I was at a mega church I could probably do it "professionally"), I make my own bass lines and just play off of the chord sheets. If I was thrown into a studio situation where I needed to play someone else's music note-for-note I'd get eaten alive.

This isn't to knock on your church guitarist or the musicians that you've seen at retreats, but that's a whole different kind of professional than what is being discussed here.

But if I'm the composer of the song why am I going to make music in multiple "languages" (so to speak) when I can just make all my music in one language (standard notation) and be done with it?

You responded to a lot of what I said, but you didn't answer my main question. In that situation where I'm given a score in standard notation 5 minutes before I have to play it how does tab help me?

And once again, tab doesn't even exist for this music, neither do recordings, so I can't do it from ear. Standard notation is the only way to do it.

Did you have any luck finding the tab for the four songs I asked about?

No, but:
1. It helps.
2. Knowing musical theory helps being able to decide what works in a song.
3. You certainly do need to know if you want to play outside of (for argument's sake) a rock band (as outlined several times before)

I don't see what you're basing this off.

First of all, you most likely don't know what key you're playing in. How do you know how much you need to transpose it by so that you'll fit in with them?

Tell that to any of my friends in a school concert band (aka Non-guitarists). If I put tab in front of my friend (a piano player), which, first of all to arrange for piano would be tricky enough, she would choose standard notation, and then shoot me in the face (and she is quite proficient with a rifle) for even suggesting she use tab. She's not even 18 yet.

Depends on the idea of your maths. If you were taught long division and chose short (even so short as to use a calculator), that would not work if you were to study polynomials. You need long division to solve polynomials, just like you need sheet music to understand how things fit together.

Yes. Please prove your ideas with fact and not opinion. Opinion usually comes down to what you believe is "easier". Some people find it easier to speak German instead of English. Should German be the national language of America or Australia?

Real musicians don't use either at a point. They just play the music. However, how they get there is another story.

Um... can you explain what you mean by this?

I think most of us arrived at this conclusion.

Yes. Matt Thiesson (Relient K) plays piano. He would know standard notation.

Find us a concrete example.

Depends who, what, why, where and how?

My Church - my guitarist, just the other night corrected someone with the key signature (since she was using the first-chord-in-the-song trick). Did he learn that from tab? No. He learned it from standard notation.

Hillsong do not distribute their music in tabs. And it is much too difficult to convert to tab and/or work it out by ear.

Of course. But what we're saying is:
1. Tabs will not take over standard notation.
2. You can use tabs - fair enough. But don't expect to be able to do that if you rock up to a pro gig where they expect you to use standard notation because: you may not be able to find a tab online AND/OR they expect you to play it then and there. With NO time to find tab.

He means he can only read notes on the highest 2 strings of his guitar, presumably in first position only.


Shawn, I believe that if you put in the hours, the days, the weeks, the months, and eventually the years, that you would see the benefit of reading standard notation.

Reading on the first 2 strings is one thing. Im talking about reading over the entire length and width of the guitar.

Name them.

The guitarist in your church doesn't count. I played bass and guitar for my church, about 5 months after I picked up the instruments. I was not a 'pro.' In order to play guitar for a small church, you only have to almost not suck.

You first, bro.


Yes. I'd be extremely surprised if they didn't. Actually, I'd be surprised if the Jonas brothers wrote their own music, but that's a different topic.

Right. And then, in your case, make the guitar longer and wider. ;)





Here's another thing to consider. It's easier to 'read' standard notation. In order to read it, all you have to do while you move your eyes along the line is observe the location of the printing. In order to 'read' a tab, you have to first see the numbers, then decode what they mean, then put that into action. There's more mental work that goes into reading a line of numbers rather than a line of dots, once you've previously learned what the dots mean.

Dude. Shawn. Sometimes, your argument is just wrong. Debating you here is like trying to convince the 18-year olds on the motorcycle forums that buying a race-replica superbike is not a good idea for a first motorcycle. Of course, everyone is the exception to the rule. :rolleyes:

so you really belive evrey big band can read muisc?

sorry but no

can i find proof? i dont even know where to start

can youy guys prove they can?

short of aksing them i dont see how

your not your going to know the song


but like you said if the band makes the song they dont need to read it

if your playing someone eles stuff you need to find some form be it in tab or stnanderd

there is almost no way to find out either way
but just like some big guitar guys only play by ear
its the same for tyab
he has been playing 40+ yers

and regualy goes to prisons for worsip

he plays complelty by ear


with facts only here i go



reading msuic has five lines, the problem is is that the guitr has six strigns so they dont match up

however tab dose match up
so you dont have to think what is this? you instently know

you dont have to worry about what pstion to play it inj it tells you

you dont have to worrk about if you miss read it as much (after all its hard to get a 6 and 7 mixed up aposed to two lines with a dot in betwen

the power tab like plays and lets you play with it
geting you the eact time

it lets you know evreything reading music dose (except maybe key but what difrince dose that make really?)

those are just off the top of my head and not couting many other factors



but my point is there is a big band out there that dose not know how to read msuic

just like there are gutirist who make it big who know liltle to know theroy



Right. And then, in your case, make the guitar longer and wider. ;)




im sorry but this si not true for evrey one


and i dont see how dots are more eazy then numbers

lets see E----3
------------------------
or ---------------p-----
------------------------
-------------------------
-------------------
yopu know the tab is e third freat you can do that real fast even with liltle to no pratice



readin music
its a D but thats beside the point

where do i put the D?
unless i have the music i cant tell

how can an augment about an ophion be wrong?

my ophion is that i think tab is eazyer

the only fact is to me right now and many others tab is more eayz and beter (form them saying so)
even those who do know how to read say they prfer tabs its just a personl choice


when it comes down to it
tab is not more eazy and reaidng msuic is not more eazy

(tab just takes a lot less time to learn which is fact)

I never said every big band can read music. All I said was that I would be surprised if the Jonas Brothers couldn't read music. Maybe they can't read it quickly, but at least one or two of them can probably read it, if not all three.


Um...if I composed the song, why wouldn't I know it?
Just wondering...does he have a day job?

Once again..... when having a debate.....

- If you make an assertion, you should be prepared to show how that assertion is fact.

- If you make an assertion, other people can claim that you are wrong, and ask for you to prove it. They do not have to provide evidence, but can request that you do.

- At this point, you have two options: Either provide the sources and citations necessary to show that your claim is, in fact, true.... Or concede that you were wrong.

- You don't get to say "My idea is fact! But I don't have to prove that, you have to prove how it isn't!"


By the way.... Yes, I do believe that pretty much every major musician can read music.

1,agreed i asumed it would be a lot eayser to find

2. why? if i cant find it your saying i wrong find evrdince im wrong

i cant find evdince that your great grandfather marrid a gypise dose that mean he did not?
no
thats just plan dumb

3. see # 2

4. i said my ophion is that tab is beter a fact is i think its beter
dose not mean evrey one thinks its beter

its my ophion that demon hunter is an awsome band
its a fact i think they are

there is a defreints

lol. Seriously. Just.... lol.


This argument is silly.

E---------12---------

Was that the 12th fret? Or frets 1 and 2 played in rapid succession?

Knowing the key is the difference between knowing what the heck you're playing, and not having a clue.


Oh? And which band is that?

i dont know
but he is pro (gets paid to play)


but you said all pros are supouse to read other wise they wont last long

it seems the big bands have



and about the song
you whold not need to have a stander msuic

since you know the song

there is no reasson for it