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-   -   the future of tab and reading music? (http://www.christianguitar.org/forums/t188577/)

Kentl 07-27-2010 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thesteve (Post 3578614)
Fair enough...

Like was previously mentioned, the stuff on Songsterr is probably most accurately described as a hybrid between tab and standard notation. That being said, if you decided that you wanted to have a violin player or a trumpeter on your song, the tab would still be useless to them.

i guess that is true but
for some insutments

for like drums just have lines with the leter
(C B K ect for the defreint stuff)

i dont know much about trumpet
or any others really

only guitar and drums
I don’t think they have tabs for them but I don’t see why anything would stop them form amking something like that

BillSPrestonEsq 07-27-2010 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kentl (Post 3578607)
Bill this is a rough song i did on the prgrams
i coveted it and what not but here it is

with no reading msuic ivolved i made this song
it tooke me maybe half a day
and thats beucs i just suck at making music :p

and i did make a mistak right before the solo the main rift is played once or twice more then it should be
but that was just me rushing to make it to show you

that was not composed in tab. Tab is a transcription tool only. You can use powertab and such to write out riffs, but if you want to compose, essentially you cannot use tab to do so. It essentially requires multiple conversions and is unwieldy.

I have a friend who orchestrates music routinely. He does not need an instrument to write good music in standard notation, because he understands theory, and how things operate. You just cannot do that with tab.

To make it useful you have to convert it. In fact, I'd wager that you used the midi capabilities of whatever program you used by listening to the riffs as you created them. You did not use tab. You used a program which used a virtual instrument.

Kentl 07-27-2010 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq (Post 3578617)
that was not composed in tab. Tab is a transcription tool only. You can use powertab and such to write out riffs, but if you want to compose, essentially you cannot use tab to do so. It essentially requires multiple conversions and is unwieldy.

I have a friend who orchestrates music routinely. He does not need an instrument to write good music in standard notation, because he understands theory, and how things operate. You just cannot do that with tab.

To make it useful you have to convert it. In fact, I'd wager that you used the midi capabilities of whatever program you used by listening to the riffs as you created them. You did not use tab. You used a program which used a virtual instrument.

I have a feeling I may have misunderstood you

It is a tab

A tab is this

-------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
-----------------9-8-----9-------------------
--------------9-------9----------------------
---------7----------------------------------
------------------------------------------

it is 6 lines one equals each string


no where dose a tab have to be on paper it can be on a program (and if you look at my post i talked about those prgrams)
they are tabs becuse all a tab is
is six lines in stead of 5 (as it is for standerd music)

which is lot more eazy

(i aucely used something that is close to what songster uses)


but it is still a tab

And plus I was not playing guitar while making this

the beuty is when you put the number in it makes the sound and you work in till you find what works

after a while you know what works and what dose not (the same for reading msuic)

and this is the part i think i misunderstood you

you said your freind dose not need a instuemnt to make music
neither do i

you said he makes it with theroy

i know some and it helped with this


what did i do form him that was so defreint besides the fatc
i use six lines and not 5?

thesteve 07-27-2010 05:41 PM

The problem is that this statement
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kentl (Post 3578619)
the beuty is when you put the number in it makes the sound and you work in till you find what works

Isn't compatible with this statement
Quote:

you said your freind dose not need a instuemnt to make music
neither do i
I suppose that if you became very proficient in a Songsterr type program you could sit down with it and tab everything out without having to hear all of the notes, but as it stands, you are using the program as your instrument and the tab as the medium through which you play your instrument.

Kentl 07-27-2010 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thesteve (Post 3578621)
The problem is that this statement


Isn't compatible with this statement

I suppose that if you became very proficient in a Songsterr type program you could sit down with it and tab everything out without having to hear all of the notes, but as it stands, you are using the program as your instrument and the tab as the medium through which you play your instrument.

But here is a hint

If you looked at the tab its just a arpeggio of a power chord in the 7th fret of the A string (with a g and e flat added in there) and now i think about it im picking form the bare chord there so you know its going to sound good you dont even have to hear it

And a E chord with the same power chord
079900
that one chord all thoguh the verse you know it will sound good since im just picking notes form the chord plus two formt he bare chord on the seven freat

Then you have a E C B progression then you do it again but add an A during the chorus the prechours is a i iv v prgesion
and the chours adds some flar to it

The solo was just per simple i found that using a note a whole tone a way works going down a string by one while still on the same fret works
ect and so on

all of these where tips i learned

I did most of it in my head and writing it down was the only way to (some times I had to have the volume off because they donít like to hear me make music)


I've done four defreint versions of the song in my head


its just like reading music

agter some time you know what works and you can "hear it in your head"

Quote:

Originally Posted by thesteve (Post 3578587)
The biggest limitation I've seen with tab isn't rhythm (I've seen rhythmic tabs) it's that it's not easily wielded. Maybe it's just the songster site, but it looks like the tab for a 4 minute song would be pages and pages of tab. No thanks...

.

It is int as far as I know, if you where to print it you can choice to print only one part (which will be deferent number of pages deepening on what you make the print size and ect)


For the most part the forums talk highly of how many pages you have to print (i cant give you acount as i dont have a preinter


but most music sheets i see are five or six pages *strug*

Demon_Hunter 07-27-2010 06:21 PM

I read through some of this thread, but not all of it.

Im just going to post my opinions about the premise of Tab replacing Standard Notation. More specifically, the problems I see with that prospect.

First, the obvious problem with Tab (and I know this has been covered), is its lack of rythmic notation. I know some tab methods that allow for rythmic notation, my old guitar teacher used one, it was interesting. But still, its limiting in its own unique ways.

Second, Standard Notation is the language of musicians. If you cant read standard notation then you will not be able to communicate effectively with musicians who play other instruments. Im fortunate that the pianist at my church also plays guitar, still, I would never say to him "The note that occurs on the 3rd string 4th fret in standard E- E tuning needs to be played one note later.". That would probably only make sense to a guitarist, and probably not much.
If I were to read standard notation, like a pianist does, then I could accurately communicate pitch, the exact measure within the song that it occurs, the exact place within the measure, and the harmony of the exact note Im attempting to discuss. I can only do those things if I read notation. Tab doesnt allow for that level of communication.

RubberChipmunk 07-27-2010 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq (Post 3578568)
Tab is not superior.

In fact, it sucks.

Here is why.

1) accuracy. Most tab is simply put, wrong.
2) timing. It doesn't have it. There is no distinction between a half note, quarter note, dotted eighth note or a whole note.
3) Allows people to memorize by rote without knowing what they are playing. Simply put, I have seen some very strange tabs of very simple things where someone had put it in a weird position on the fretboard.

As the norm becomes people not reading music, music will suffer. Because frankly, tab is only useful for recording what already exists. It has no compositional usage.

The fact is, 15 years ago tabs were a joke, and today most tabs are a joke. The system is flawed with only having one of the two major components of music, and it not well. It has pitch, but not timing. And it has a rigid pitch, rather than the notation which can be played in multiple locations.

Furthermore, tab has to be rewritten for alternate tunings.

I think its important to point out that it is not only possible, but quite easy (if not a bit time-consuming) to make a tab that makes timing distinctions, even in ASCII. For example, the popular editor PowerTab allows you to export your finished product to ASCII, and has the option to mark the note durations above the tab itself (Q=Quarter Note, E=Eighth Note, etc.). Outside of strictly ASCII, its relatively simple to "merge" the concepts of musical notes with the numbers on tabs, resulting in a product just as detailed as music notation, with the added benefit of being able to convey exactly what fingerings or voicings of notes and chords are used. You can end up with a finished product that is really only distinguishable from music notation by the fact that it probably doesn't have five lines on the staff and uses numbers with lines instead of dots with lines.

While I would agree with you that tabs aren't a suitable replacement for music notation, and in many cases they're a complete joke in terms of accuracy and formatting, I think that a properly formatted tab can be just as useful to any guitarist wanting to learn a piece.







Edit... lol, I didn't even realize this thread was three pages.

Kentl 07-27-2010 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demon_Hunter (Post 3578630)
I read through some of this thread, but not all of it.

Im just going to post my opinions about the premise of Tab replacing Standard Notation. More specifically, the problems I see with that prospect.

First, the obvious problem with Tab (and I know this has been covered), is its lack of rythmic notation. I know some tab methods that allow for rythmic notation, my old guitar teacher used one, it was interesting. But still, its limiting in its own unique ways.

Second, Standard Notation is the language of musicians. If you cant read standard notation then you will not be able to communicate effectively with musicians who play other instruments. Im fortunate that the pianist at my church also plays guitar, still, I would never say to him "The note that occurs on the 3rd string 4th fret in standard E- E tuning needs to be played one note later.". That would probably only make sense to a guitarist, and probably not much.
If I were to read standard notation, like a pianist does, then I could accurately communicate pitch, the exact measure within the song that it occurs, the exact place within the measure, and the harmony of the exact note Im attempting to discuss. I can only do those things if I read notation. Tab doesnt allow for that level of communication.

just want to say

Demon Hunter Tabs | Songsterr
this site tells you evrything you need to know

and they are tabs
(yes i picked the band just for you)

you can tell when it coures can tell how long it holds out (by the lines undeneath it)
and you dont have to get confused with only five lines

plus they also let you hear the rest of the band clearly

Demon_Hunter 07-27-2010 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kentl (Post 3578634)
just want to say

Demon Hunter Tabs | Songsterr
this site tells you evrything you need to know

and they are tabs
(yes i picked the band just for you)

you can tell when it coures can tell how long it holds out (by the lines undeneath it)
and you dont have to get confused with only five lines

plus they also let you hear the rest of the band clearly




As William Leavitt would have called it (as he did in one of his instructionals), tab is just a crutch.

Its the flash card you use when you cant actually read the words.

Besides, I like to be able to see the actual melody im playing. Tab really doesnt do that.


At this very moment Im studying a peice of music that has no tab. Only notation. Currently, I can comfortably play it in 3 different positions, with no tab telling me how to do that. Im working on adding 2 more positions, and with my 7 string, I could easily adapt this peice into atleast 3 more positions after that, without changing octave. But I do all that without tab.

Tab is a crutch with which you limit yourself. Why willingly put on a limitation?

Besides, as I have already pointed out, Standard Notation is the language of musicians. If you cant speak the language you will find yourselfmore limited when dealing with other musicans who only read music.


As far as positional playing, I dont want the peice of music to tell me where to play it at. Ill decide where its most apropriate to play a piece of music, and really, I think thats more efficient. A tabber doesnt know your, or my, hands as well as you do. You know whats comfortable for you to play.

Kentl 07-27-2010 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demon_Hunter (Post 3578637)
As William Leavitt would have called it (as he did in one of his instructionals), tab is just a crutch.

Its the flash card you use when you cant actually read the words.

Besides, I like to be able to see the actual melody im playing. Tab really doesnt do that.


At this very moment Im studying a peice of music that has no tab. Only notation. Currently, I can comfortably play it in 3 different positions, with no tab telling me how to do that. Im working on adding 2 more positions, and with my 7 string, I could easily adapt this peice into atleast 3 more positions after that, without changing octave. But I do all that without tab.

Tab is a crutch with which you limit yourself. Why willingly put on a limitation?

Besides, as I have already pointed out, Standard Notation is the language of musicians. If you cant speak the language you will find yourselfmore limited when dealing with other musicans who only read music.


As far as positional playing, I dont want the peice of music to tell me where to play it at. Ill decide where its most apropriate to play a piece of music, and really, I think thats more efficient. A tabber doesnt know your, or my, hands as well as you do. You know whats comfortable for you to play.

But at the same time
You can also just transpose it where ever you want
if yo cant play bare chords then you can tranpone to open chords or even power chords

with touch of a bouton and knoing what yu want

alyu haveto do tell it to go up so many strings (while keeping the same notes) you can even say how many frets but can mess you up if you dont know what your doing

Demon_Hunter 07-27-2010 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kentl (Post 3578641)
But at the same time
You can also just transpose it where ever you want
if yo cant play bare chords then you can tranpone to open chords or even power chords


With my guitar in hand I can do that mentally.

Quote:

with touch of a bouton and knoing what yu want
You have it backwards. First you should know what you want. I only change one part of that process. I know what I want, and then I shift my hand up one position and play it that way.

Quote:

alyu haveto do tell it to go up so many strings (while keeping the same notes) you can even say how many frets but can mess you up if you dont know what your doing

All I really have to do is convince my brain to send an electro-chemical signal to my left arm/hand telling it what Im wanting, and almost as fast as that signal leaves my brain the action is occuring.
And if I know what Im doing then my hand ought to react correctly to my desire to play a select set of notes in a desired position for a specific duration of time.

All Im doing by reading/writing in standard notation is cutting out the middle man.

Kentl 07-27-2010 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demon_Hunter (Post 3578646)
With my guitar in hand I can do that mentally.



You have it backwards. First you should know what you want. I only change one part of that process. I know what I want, and then I shift my hand up one position and play it that way.




All I really have to do is convince my brain to send an electro-chemical signal to my left arm/hand telling it what Im wanting, and almost as fast as that signal leaves my brain the action is occuring.
And if I know what Im doing then my hand ought to react correctly to my desire to play a select set of notes in a desired position for a specific duration of time.

All Im doing by reading/writing in standard notation is cutting out the middle man.

really?
it more eazy to wred read power tab and what not

plus anyone can lern how to rea it in ve meiunts

it seems like you add more then you have to

Giga Hertz 07-27-2010 08:47 PM

What's so hard about standard notation? You only have to learn where a maximum of 16 notes go.

If you really apply yourself, it really isn't that hard to learn.

mulletman 07-27-2010 08:49 PM

Tabs suck.

I have never used anything but standard notation for anything other than guitar music.

Standard notation is designed the way it is, for a reason. From a sheet of music, it can convey exactly how to play a piece of music. Exactly. There are many more things missing from tab than just rhythmic notation. Time signatures, key signatures, dynamics... etc. I've never seen any of those on a tab. You cannot hand tab notation sheet music to a big-band style jazz ensemble and get them to sight-read a piece of music correctly. You can with standard notation. Standard notation isn't going anywhere, guitar players are just getting dumber and more lazy. lol.


Standard notation is infinitely superior to read from. It's much easier to keep track of where you are... Once you learn it, it's extremely helpful. I'm a former trumpet player, and I've had my share of music reading. Generally, if I refer to a tab, I get frustrated with the idiocy and give up on it in a matter of minutes. It's really that inferior.

Kentl 07-27-2010 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giga Hertz (Post 3578650)
What's so hard about standard notation? You only have to learn where a maximum of 16 notes go.

If you really apply yourself, it really isn't that hard to learn.

Did you see the threads about my timing?

Reading music has gone down the same path


and for mei it is really hrd ive been trying for five months or so
(dont know when i started

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phantom Mullet (Post 3578653)
Tabs suck.

I have never used anything but standard notation for anything other than guitar music.

Standard notation is designed the way it is, for a reason. From a sheet of music, it can convey exactly how to play a piece of music. Exactly. There are many more things missing from tab than just rhythmic notation. Time signatures, key signatures, dynamics... etc. I've never seen any of those on a tab. You cannot hand tab notation sheet music to a big-band style jazz ensemble and get them to sight-read a piece of music correctly. You can with standard notation. Standard notation isn't going anywhere, guitar players are just getting dumber and more lazy. lol.

look up tuxguitar it dose all of that


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