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0000 03-02-2006 08:35 PM

A New Law
 
"What's the use in trading a law you can never keep, for one you can but cannot get you anything?"-Derek Webb, A New Law

As I survey the conversation here daily, I ceased to be amazed at the amount of time and energy that is often put in to trying to figure out if *insert name of questionable practice here* is a sin. Certainly, our lives should look more like Christ and less like the world as we mature, but have we not been freed from the law through Christ, and if we insist on living by the law and holding others to that standard, is that not what we will be judged by? When will western christianity learn to live as the free men/women that we are under Christ? Discuss...and be free.

jengoesup 03-02-2006 08:39 PM

We have not been freed from the Law of Moses (if that's what you're talking about):
Mat 5:17-20 Do not think that I have come to do away with the Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets. I have not come to do away with them, but to make their teachings come true. (18) Remember that as long as heaven and earth last, not the least point nor the smallest detail of the Law will be done away with---not until the end of all things. (19) So then, whoever disobeys even the least important of the commandments and teaches others to do the same, will be least in the Kingdom of heaven. On the other hand, whoever obeys the Law and teaches others to do the same, will be great in the Kingdom of heaven. (20) I tell you, then, that you will be able to enter the Kingdom of heaven only if you are more faithful than the teachers of the Law and the Pharisees in doing what God requires.(GNB)

domnastics 03-02-2006 10:03 PM

That quote is kind of goofy and I'm not sure I understand it totally. But what I do understand is that the law is there to bring forth the meaning of sin. In a nutshell, keeping the law can't get us to heaven but breaking it will keep us out.

Sean 03-02-2006 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jengoesup
We have not been freed from the Law of Moses (if that's what you're talking about):
Mat 5:17-20 Do not think that I have come to do away with the Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets. I have not come to do away with them, but to make their teachings come true. (18) Remember that as long as heaven and earth last, not the least point nor the smallest detail of the Law will be done away with---not until the end of all things. (19) So then, whoever disobeys even the least important of the commandments and teaches others to do the same, will be least in the Kingdom of heaven. On the other hand, whoever obeys the Law and teaches others to do the same, will be great in the Kingdom of heaven. (20) I tell you, then, that you will be able to enter the Kingdom of heaven only if you are more faithful than the teachers of the Law and the Pharisees in doing what God requires.(GNB)

Read Acts 15

Acts 15
5But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses." .....11But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will." .....19Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues."


They seem to believe that we shouldn't trouble gentiles with the entirety of the Law. Paul seemed to have similiar views...

Romans 6:14
For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Ted Logan 03-02-2006 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0000
"What's the use in trading a law you can never keep, for one you can but cannot get you anything?"-Derek Webb, A New Law

As I survey the conversation here daily, I ceased to be amazed at the amount of time and energy that is often put in to trying to figure out if *insert name of questionable practice here* is a sin. Certainly, our lives should look more like Christ and less like the world as we mature, but have we not been freed from the law through Christ, and if we insist on living by the law and holding others to that standard, is that not what we will be judged by? When will western christianity learn to live as the free men/women that we are under Christ? Discuss...and be free.

Rom 6:15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
Rom 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,
Rom 6:18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
Rom 6:20 When you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
Rom 6:21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? The end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Yes, we are free, regarding sin, but slaves regarding righteousness. Christians are not in opposition to the Law, but freed from the Law.

Rom 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.

The Law held us captive in that it said, "Do this and you will live," and none of us fulfilled its requirements but were nonetheless obliged to fulfill it, in order that sin might become most sinful. But as partakers of the New Covenant in Christ's blood,

Eze 11:17 Therefore say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you out of the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.'
Eze 11:18 And when they come there, they will remove from it all its detestable things and all its abominations.
Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,
Eze 11:20 that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God.


Now, by the Holy Spirit, we are called to walk in His statutes and keep His rules and obey them. We serve Him in the Spirit rather than under the written code, but we are nonetheless called to obey. We are His slaves. Does this mean we are under the Law? No, but we are under grace, and therefore we must not continue in sin as though we were still under the curse of the Law. Jesus was the fulfillment of all that the Law required, which we were unable to accomplish, which is the meaning of Matthew 5:17-20. God required perfect obedience for those under the Law. The point was to show us that we could never be counted righteous by observing the Law, because none of us has perfect righteousness with respect to the Law. Jesus, however, fulfilled it, and we are partakers of His righteousness by faith. We stand righteous before God not because we in ourselves are more righteous than the Pharisees, but because Christ is more righteous than the Pharisees, and His righteousness has been counted as our righteousness, and our sin has been paid for by His sacrifice.

Therefore, we must ask what free Christian "obedience" looks like. We are told:

1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance,
1Pe 1:15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
1Pe 1:16 since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy."

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?


And Jesus Himself says,

Mat 16:24 Then Jesus told his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
Mat 16:25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.


It is not a "new law" to say that we must be obedient to Christ. It is the cry of the Christian's heart to follow Him, to do as He bids, and He bids us to deny ourselves and follow Him in all things. Paul said:

1Co 5:9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people--
1Co 5:10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
1Co 5:13 God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."


Was this a "new law" in the sense that Derek Webb means in his song? No, this is the essence of Christian freedom, that we are slaves of righteousness, not under the weight of the Law, but under the easy yoke of Christ. The Christian is freed from the curse of the Law and, by the Holy Spirit, conformed to the image of Christ and taught by that same Spirit to love righteousness. Has it ceased to be sinful to murder, or to covet, or to commit adultery? No, of course not. But as Christ has fulfilled that code and freed us from its death sentence upon us, we are now freed to live under grace, as slaves to righteousness. But let us remember Paul's warning to us:

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,
Rom 6:18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.


A man who says that he is freed from the Law and may therefore live a life of debauchery is giving us good reason to say that he is presenting himself as a slave to sin, rather than to righteousness.

PartTimeLurker 03-03-2006 12:35 AM

[QUOTE=Aaron Adams]what you said[QUOTE]

Wow, rock on AA! That is exactly right. Couldn't of said it better myself...

jengoesup 03-03-2006 03:50 PM

Sean and Aaron, thanks for clearing that up. I'd always wondered a bit why Christians did not follow the Old Testament to the T.

BillSPrestonEsq 03-03-2006 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jengoesup
We have not been freed from the Law of Moses (if that's what you're talking about):
Mat 5:17-20 Do not think that I have come to do away with the Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets. I have not come to do away with them, but to make their teachings come true. (18) Remember that as long as heaven and earth last, not the least point nor the smallest detail of the Law will be done away with---not until the end of all things. (19) So then, whoever disobeys even the least important of the commandments and teaches others to do the same, will be least in the Kingdom of heaven. On the other hand, whoever obeys the Law and teaches others to do the same, will be great in the Kingdom of heaven. (20) I tell you, then, that you will be able to enter the Kingdom of heaven only if you are more faithful than the teachers of the Law and the Pharisees in doing what God requires.(GNB)


Actually, we are free from the law of Moses.

Acts 15:28For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: 29that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."


Collosians 2:12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

Galatians 3: 23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

Cadence 03-05-2006 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0000
"What's the use in trading a law you can never keep, for one you can but cannot get you anything?"-Derek Webb, A New Law

As I survey the conversation here daily, I ceased to be amazed at the amount of time and energy that is often put in to trying to figure out if *insert name of questionable practice here* is a sin. Certainly, our lives should look more like Christ and less like the world as we mature, but have we not been freed from the law through Christ, and if we insist on living by the law and holding others to that standard, is that not what we will be judged by? When will western christianity learn to live as the free men/women that we are under Christ? Discuss...and be free.

So you're basically saying that we can do anything we want without consequence?

Xantose 03-05-2006 01:09 PM

We are free from the law of the Old Testament, but [don't you love buts?]

Quote:

John 14:15-17
15 If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
For those who don't know Jesus said that, which means if we don't strive to keep His commandments [all ten of them] we don't love Him.

Quote:

John 14:6
Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.
We can't get into heaven if we don't love Him and follow Him. How do we love and follow Him? By following His commandments.

0000 03-06-2006 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cadence
So you're basically saying that we can do anything we want without consequence?


you missed the part where i said as we mature our lives should look more like Christ.

Cadence 03-06-2006 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0000
you missed the part where i said as we mature our lives should look more like Christ.

i didn't miss that part at all. i just fail to see your point in all of this.

how are we to mature if we shouldn't talk in depth about questionable sins and other such issues?

BillSPrestonEsq 03-06-2006 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xantose
We are free from the law of the Old Testament, but [don't you love buts?]



For those who don't know Jesus said that, which means if we don't strive to keep His commandments [all ten of them] we don't love Him.



We can't get into heaven if we don't love Him and follow Him. How do we love and follow Him? By following His commandments.

Read acts 15, the 10 commandments are not binding to the believer. Thats not about loving God. The 10 commandments are a part of the mosaic law. If you hold them as binding you must not trim your beards corners, wear blue tassels on your robe, not eat pork, etc. Read Acts 15 and Galatians 3.

You have composed a system of salvation through law.

Xantose 03-06-2006 07:02 PM

Quote:

Read acts 15, the 10 commandments are not binding to the believer. Thats not about loving God. The 10 commandments are a part of the mosaic law. If you hold them as binding you must not trim your beards corners, wear blue tassels on your robe, not eat pork, etc. Read Acts 15 and Galatians 3.
So if we don't have to follow the ten commandments I've got a new witnessing technique. I'm just going to bet people stupid things [like I can stick 5 straws up my nose] and if I win they have to read something off a card. I'll win and they read a card which states : I ACCEPT JESUS INTO MY LIFE, or whatever magic words make you a christian and then I'll tell them they're saved and are going to heaven. If they ask if they have to change anything I'll just say, "Oh no, you're not bound by the law. Go have premarital sex with prostitutes, do drugs, murder people...it doesn't matter! Whoo Hooo!"

I think you see my point here.

Quote:

You have composed a system of salvation through law.
No. I know we are not saved because we follow the law, becasue we can't, and salvation is not based upon works. But I do feel that we should abide by the law, because Jesus said we should if we love Him, as well as the fact that we should be set apart from the world. "be in the world not of it" or however that goes.

Qingu 03-06-2006 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xantose
But I do feel that we should abide by the law, because Jesus said we should if we love Him, as well as the fact that we should be set apart from the world. "be in the world not of it" or however that goes.

So I take it you keep kosher, avoid contact with menstrating women, give 10% of your income to the church and advocate stoning disobedient children and people like me to death?

Or are you being arbitrary on which parts of the law you should abide by?


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