a question

[gymnast_girl_27]

why does God let so many bad things happen? life can really suck. He has the power to make things good. why does He let us suffer so much? I know this sounds really selfish.. but I want an answer.

[Lowe_Dawg55]

Think about this, if we never go through trials and stuff, what would we have to be thankful for? What good would Jesus' trip to earth be?

[JerryLove]

Originally posted by Lowe_Dawg55
Think about this, if we never go through trials and stuff, what would we have to be thankful for? What good would Jesus' trip to earth be? Hmm, off the top of my head, I would have to answer "the lack of bad things" and "a social call".

Remember, Biblically, the bad things on Earth are not to make us appriciate the good ones. They are to make us fear God (who is demonstrating how long he can hold a grudge over an apple). If it were otherwise, Eden would have been like this.

[calebb]

Look through the Old testament:

Israel was constantly turning away from God. When they did, God would allow bad things to happen to them. When they repented, God would let good things happen to them. There were huge oscillations between good things and bad things happening to Israel. The moral? Without having a need for God, man tries to get by on his own, without God.

And....

God loves us. When is church attendance highest? During prosperity? Or War? During the Persian gulf war, church attendance was up like 15% for the whole duration!!

Bad things bring people to repentance. Repentance brings people to God. Coming to God gives people eternal life.

Remeber, our time on earth is very short compared to infinite time with God!

God bless you,

-Caleb

[Chrysostom]

"Bad things" do not happen without God being able to stop them. God knows everything and can change anything. God was not surprised that the World Trade Center towers were run into by planes just as He's not surprised when people receive salvation. Things don't just "go unnoticed" by God; if they happen, then they're considered acceptable by God. Always remember, of course, that a blacksmith uses a fire to turn raw metal into powerful tools. In the same way, "bad things" can affect us for the good.

[phocis]

Look at the 9/11 attack.

Many people came to the Lord because of it.

[JerryLove]

Ironic since it was someone's belief in God that caused it.

[trav5787]

Joh 10:10 The thief does not come except to steal and to kill and to destroy. I have come so that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

What does the thief (satan) do?
What does God do?
Any questions

[3e3c3e]

And God promises never to give us more than we can handle. If something bad is going on, remeber God trust in you that you will be able to get through it. That's a Loving God.

-3e3c3e

[trav5787]

Rom 2:4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

God's kindness, not calamity.

[BluesJunkie]

I think bad things happen as a result of sin. I'm not saying that every bad thing that happens has a specific sin we can point to as the cause. However, sin does cause life to suck. Think of your own sinful nature and then multiply that several billion times. No wonder the world is so awful!

The question shouldn't be, "why do bad things happen?", but, "why do good things happen?". The answer, of course, is God's mercy. God keeps the world from feeling the full result of its sin. If God was not merciful in this way, the whole world would be worse than Nazi Germany.

[trav5787]

I don't think God lets bad things happen. I think we let bad things happen. God gave man dominion on the earth.

Mat 18:18 "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 "Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.

The Lord's prayer says "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven" Will there be disasters and sickness and all the other junk we put up with on earth in heaven? I don't think so. So, it is our job to pray and have faith that our prayers are effective in order to stop the bad things from happening.

[codyofthejungle]

Originally posted by JerryLove
Ironic since it was someone's belief in God that caused it.

they don't believe in our God

[Karen M]

Hello Cody :)


>>>they don't believe in our God<<<

Very well, if YOUR God said it was His Will that you fly airplanes into buildings, would you do it?

[MrCrabby]

Ironic since it was someone's belief in God that caused it.
That wasn't MY God!

And this shows you how Satan can mean something for bad, and God can turn it into good. (John 10:10 has been posted)
Very well, if YOUR God said it was His Will that you fly airplanes into buildings, would you do it?
That's easy.
No.
Why?
Because God wouldn't tell anyone to do that!

[Karen M]

Hello GF :)


>>>That's easy.
No.
Why?
Because God wouldn't tell anyone to do that!<<<

Oh yes he would. Have you read the OT lately? ;)

[MrCrabby]

Oh yes he would. Have you read the OT lately?
Sorry, i don't see any unprovoked acts of terror that were commanded by God.

[BluesJunkie]

What about completely destroying a nation by killing EVERYONE!

That's in the OT.

[JerryLove]

That wasn't MY God!

And this shows you how Satan can mean something for bad, and God can turn it into good. And many of the churches you spoke of people attending you would not claim was your God. Actually, Muslims accept Adam, and Abraham ,and Moses, and Jesus (though differently than you) so it is your God. You just disagree with their perception of him.

Sorry, i don't see any unprovoked acts of terror that were commanded by God. "The Amalekites live in the Negev; the Hittites, Jebusites and Amorites live in the hill country; and the Canaanites live near the sea and along the Jordan." Then Caleb silenced the people before Moses and said, "We should go up and take possession of the land, for we can certainly do it."" (Num 13:29-30)

""Speak to the Israelites and say to them: `When you cross the Jordan into Canaan, drive out all the inhabitants of the land before you. Destroy all their carved images and their cast idols, and demolish all their high places. Take possession of the land and settle in it, for I have given you the land to possess. Distribute the land by lot, according to your clans. To a larger group give a larger inheritance, and to a smaller group a smaller one. Whatever falls to them by lot will be theirs. Distribute it according to your ancestral tribes." (Num 33:51-54)

"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." (Num 31:17-18)

[JerryLove]

There are many references to God sending the Isrealis to kill entire cultures because they had "good fields" or lived in Isreal with the Jews arrived. That's even less of a grudge than Al Quida has.

[Karen M]

Hello GF :)


>>>Sorry, i don't see any unprovoked acts of terror that were commanded by God.<<<

Gee...lets see: He kills everything in a worldwide flood exept for Noah; He kills everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah by raining "fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven;" When Dinah, the daughter of Jacob, is "defiled" by a man who seems to love her dearly, her brothers trick all of the men of the town and kill them, and then take their wives and children captive; After God has sufficiently hardened the Pharaoh's heart, he kills all the firstborn Egyptian children...and so on...


Second of all, the airplanes were not "unprovoked" according to Allah.

[trav5787]

God's word was out. God had already prophesied that Jesus was coming. The first prophecy of Jesus occurs in Genesis. It says in Isiah that God's word will not return to Him void. Therefore once God's speaks something, it happens. The reason these things happened in the OT is because God had already set things in motion to bring Jesus into the world. Once God sets things in motion they cannot be stopped. So anything that gets in the way of Jesus coming would be removed. It isn't necessarily God's choice that these things happen but once God says something he is bound by his word. The righteous lineage that would bring Jesus into the world had to be preserved and that is why sin was dealt with so quickly and severely in the OT.

People in the OT also didn't have the whole picture of God. Jesus was God made flesh. He never did anything like strike people w/ diseases or strike anybody with lightning. He healed people and comforted them and rescued them from raging seas. God is love. Love doesn't do hurtful things.

No muslims do not serve MY God. They serve satan. The Koran states that anyone one thinks that God has a son is going to hell. The Bible says that anyone who denies the Son is of the antichrist. My God says to love your neighbor as your self. The muslim god (satan) says to kill them if they don't agree w/ you. It especially singles out Jews and Christians. Funny how satan wants to kill God's chosen ones, the ones that actually have the truth.

[skclowdus]

James 1:2-4
2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds,
3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance.
4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

According to James trials (bad things by human standards) are necessary for us to reach complete and spiritually mature. That is why we are told to rejoice in trials because they are an opportunity to grow closer to God.

1 Peter 1:6-7
6In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.
7 These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

Peter says that trials prove are opportunities to prove our faith genuine so that we will bring glory and honor to God.

So I guess "bad things" are all a matter of perspective.

That at least explains why bad things happen to us. I don't always understand how God works in situations that don't involve me personally, especially in large scale tragedies like 9/11, but I do know that God is sovereign and ultimately everything is under His control and that He has a plan for this world. That is good enough for me.

(Can someone remind me how to superscript numbers on here? Thanks)

[Luke]

<DL><DT><font color=#555555>trav5787 said:</font></DT>
<DD>I don't think God lets bad things happen. I think we let bad things happen. God gave man dominion on the earth.</DD>

<DT><font color=#555555>Luke says:</font></DT>
<DD>Really? Did God lose His sovereignty when He did that? According to Scripture...no. Isaiah and Job both make it clear that God retains His sovereignty.

Furthermore, Isaiah 43:7 makes it clear that God does, in fact, "let bad things happen"--in fact, He causes them.</DD>

<DT><font color=#555555>trav5787 said:</font></DT>
<DD>Mat 18:18 "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 "Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.</DD>

<DT><font color=#555555>Luke says:</font></DT>
<DD>That has nothing to do with the topic.</DD></DL>

[Luke]

<DL><DT><font color=#555555>skclowdus said:</font></DT>
<DD>(Can someone remind me how to superscript numbers on here? Thanks)</DD>

<DT><font color=#555555>Luke says:</font></DT>
<DD>&lt;sup&gt; and &lt;/sup&gt;</DD></DL>

[Karen M]

Hello Trav :)


>>>God's word was out. God had already prophesied that Jesus was coming. The first prophecy of Jesus occurs in Genesis. It says in Isiah that God's word will not return to Him void. Therefore once God's speaks something, it happens. The reason these things happened in the OT is because God had already set things in motion to bring Jesus into the world. Once God sets things in motion they cannot be stopped. So anything that gets in the way of Jesus coming would be removed. It isn't necessarily God's choice that these things happen but once God says something he is bound by his word. The righteous lineage that would bring Jesus into the world had to be preserved and that is why sin was dealt with so quickly and severely in the OT.<<<

Perhaps the Muslim God has also given his word according to their Holy Book, so anything counter to his prophacy occuring must be removed?


>>>People in the OT also didn't have the whole picture of God. Jesus was God made flesh. He never did anything like strike people w/ diseases or strike anybody with lightning. He healed people and comforted them and rescued them from raging seas. God is love. Love doesn't do hurtful things.<<<

The Muslim God also supposivly loves people.


>>>No muslims do not serve MY God. They serve satan. The Koran states that anyone one thinks that God has a son is going to hell.<<<

Where?


>>>The Bible says that anyone who denies the Son is of the antichrist. My God says to love your neighbor as your self. The muslim god (satan) says to kill them if they don't agree w/ you.<<<

Where? Its no more specific in this area than the Bible is


>>>It especially singles out Jews and Christians. Funny how satan wants to kill God's chosen ones, the ones that actually have the truth.<<<

No, it especially singles out polytheists and atheists. This is because they think it is a sin to believe that anything could be on the same level as God. Jews and Christians, though not as "bad" as they actually affirm that there is but one God, just happen to be the promenent religions in the US, other powerful contries, and Isriel.

On the other hand, I don't remember where it said this so we both need to get cites to back up our points...


Thanks for your answer :)

Karen

[Karen M]

Hello Skclowdus :)


>>>James 1:2-4
2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds,
3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance.
4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

According to James trials (bad things by human standards) are necessary for us to reach complete and spiritually mature. That is why we are told to rejoice in trials because they are an opportunity to grow closer to God.<<<

If you are a Calvinist: why wouldn't God only choose to give trials to the elect instead of wasting it on those who he will not use in Heaven anyway?



>>>1 Peter 1:6-7
6In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.
7 These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

Peter says that trials prove are opportunities to prove our faith genuine so that we will bring glory and honor to God.<<<

Nearly the same thing as above; according to Calvinism, the elect are the only ones who would need to prove their faith is genuine. Why not only test the elect?


Thanks,

Karen

[skclowdus]

Hi Karen,

If one were not elect, then they would be bound for hell because they deserved it (we all deserve hell but the elect are exempt if you will because of Christs atoning work on the cross) so they would certainly deserve bad things happening to them on earth as well. Not that I believe this necessarily, but just one possibility. Ultimately it fits into what I said at the end of my first post. To summarize........I don't know :D ...but I do know that God is sovereign and I am content to rest in that knowledge.

thanks

[underdog118]

hey!
well, you know that God causes all to work out for the good of those who love Him (Rom. 8:28). first of all, we are sinful. None of this stuff would have happened without sin. Secondly, He wants you to find Him and take refuge in Him. I just finished reading Screwtape Letters by C. S. Lewis. It shows that the Christian grows and matures more in troughs (low, challenging, hard times in the spiritual life) than peaks (high times; blue skies), because the Christian has to rely on God more in the hard times. He wants us to rely on Him fully. And things will get better! the Christian life is full of these peaks and troughs . you will feel highs and lows. God is there for you always though, even in the hardest of times. He is doing these things to you for a purpose, just trust and totally rely on Him! He will help you out of these things! God bless!

[rotj4]

I am going through a living hell in my opinion right now. And in the past I have gone through worse. God says he will take care of us. He does not lie. My living hell is nothing in all reality. I dont know what you are going through but this life is so short and we who believe will have an eternity of paradise. I had a good friend whose dad died of cancer a few years ago. This man was on fire for God like no one I had ever seen. Well he believed God was going to heal him. He died about a year after he told me that. Well on the outside it looks as if God let him down doesnt it. God says anyone who calls on him will be taken care of. God doesnt lie. I came to the understanding that this man is in the prescence of our Creator and he did take care of him. PERIOD.....nothing should ever worry or bother us. This life will end. But for the believer.........a better life begins. Praise God through your suffering and trials. He may allow you to suffer but he has promised to take care of you.......eternal life awaits. If I were to die today, I have no regrets and I have not been robbed of abundant life as Jesus promised me. It is on the way.

[Chrysostom]

Karen and Jerry:
>>Very well, if YOUR God said it was His Will that you fly airplanes into buildings, would you do it? <<

Many Christians believe it was God Himself (yes, Yahweh) who caused this "calamity." i'm currently looking into the reasons behind that.

[Propitiated]

Originally posted by Karen M

No, it especially singles out polytheists and atheists. This is because they think it is a sin to believe that anything could be on the same level as God. Jews and Christians, though not as "bad" as they actually affirm that there is but one God, just happen to be the promenent religions in the US, other powerful contries, and Isriel.




No, in Surah1. Al-Fatihah Part 1 vs. 1:7 it clearly states;

"The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor who went astray (such as the Christians)."

Strait out of the very begining of "The Noble Qur'an" with english translation of the meanings and commentary. I was given this misleading representation of "Allah's messengers word" by my Islamic father-in-law so that I could learn the "truth", that I might add he doesn't know. The Qur'an denies the fact that Jesus died on the cross. The Qur'an also says that Jesus was here to preach the Gospel, but then never tells you the Gospel that He came to preach. The messenger that appeared to Muhammad did not even reveal his name and judging from the total misdirection of the book I can only be lead to believe that the messenger was someone, or something that wanted to lead good people down a wide road. The Gospel that Jesus was here to preach was that our sins are forgiven. Try to tell that to a Muslim or Islamic person. They know fully that they are going to stand before God and be judged for their sins. That's why they want to die for jihad it's the only way for their sins to be absolved. If that was my only salvation from God's wrath I would be lookin' for a jet plane of my own to crash somewhere.

[Karen M]

Hello again skclowdus :)


>>>If one were not elect, then they would be bound for hell because they deserved it (we all deserve hell but the elect are exempt if you will because of Christs atoning work on the cross) so they would certainly deserve bad things happening to them on earth as well.<<<

You just said that bad things arn't really bad things but that they are "trials" specificly used by God to promote character. Either they are ment for punishment or ment for character, pick one :)

[Karen M]

Greetings Underdog :)

>>>well, you know that God causes all to work out for the good of those who love Him (Rom. 8:28). first of all, we are sinful. None of this stuff would have happened without sin. Secondly, He wants you to find Him and take refuge in Him. I just finished reading Screwtape Letters by C. S. Lewis. It shows that the Christian grows and matures more in troughs (low, challenging, hard times in the spiritual life) than peaks (high times; blue skies), because the Christian has to rely on God more in the hard times. He wants us to rely on Him fully. And things will get better! the Christian life is full of these peaks and troughs . you will feel highs and lows. God is there for you always though, even in the hardest of times. He is doing these things to you for a purpose, just trust and totally rely on Him! He will help you out of these things! God bless!<<<

And this goes to the same question I asked skclowdus. If you are a Calvinist: Why wouldn't God only give these trials to his elect because those are the ones he wishes to rely on him?

[Karen M]

Good Morning rotj, must, and prop :)

rotj:
>>>I am going through a living hell in my opinion right now. And in the past I have gone through worse. God says he will take care of us. He does not lie. My living hell is nothing in all reality. I dont know what you are going through but this life is so short and we who believe will have an eternity of paradise. I had a good friend whose dad died of cancer a few years ago. This man was on fire for God like no one I had ever seen. Well he believed God was going to heal him. He died about a year after he told me that. Well on the outside it looks as if God let him down doesnt it. God says anyone who calls on him will be taken care of. God doesnt lie. I came to the understanding that this man is in the prescence of our Creator and he did take care of him. PERIOD.....nothing should ever worry or bother us. This life will end. But for the believer.........a better life begins. Praise God through your suffering and trials. He may allow you to suffer but he has promised to take care of you.......eternal life awaits. If I were to die today, I have no regrets and I have not been robbed of abundant life as Jesus promised me. It is on the way.<<<

So, basically, if someone with cancer lives, it must be God's intervention, and, if someone with cancer dies, its also God's intervention? Sorry, but I think that sounds like just a little too conveniant of a response... ;)


Must:
>>>Many Christians believe it was God Himself (yes, Yahweh) who caused this "calamity." i'm currently looking into the reasons behind that.<<<

Okay, tell me when you think you know why :)



>>>No, in Surah1. Al-Fatihah Part 1 vs. 1:7 it clearly states;

"The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor who went astray (such as the Christians)."<<<

How do you know "those who have earned Your Anger" necessarily means Jews and "who went astray" necessarily means Christians? Also, where does it say that Allah hates these people worse than polytheists or atheists?



>>>Strait out of the very begining of "The Noble Qur'an" with english translation of the meanings and commentary. I was given this misleading representation of "Allah's messengers word" by my Islamic father-in-law so that I could learn the "truth", that I might add he doesn't know.<<<

Why is his "truth" any more backed up than your "truth"?


>>>The Qur'an denies the fact that Jesus died on the cross.<<<

So? It still says he was crucified, it just says he didn't die from said crucifiction.


>>>The Qur'an also says that Jesus was here to preach the Gospel, but then never tells you the Gospel that He came to preach.<<<

Maybe they thought parts of it were inaccurate?


>>>The messenger that appeared to Muhammad did not even reveal his name and judging from the total misdirection of the book I can only be lead to believe that the messenger was someone, or something that wanted to lead good people down a wide road. The Gospel that Jesus was here to preach was that our sins are forgiven. Try to tell that to a Muslim or Islamic person. They know fully that they are going to stand before God and be judged for their sins. That's why they want to die for jihad it's the only way for their sins to be absolved. If that was my only salvation from God's wrath I would be lookin' for a jet plane of my own to crash somewhere.<<<

Where does it say that Jihad is the only way to Heaven?


Thanks for your responses :)

Karen

[gymnast_girl_27]

.....

[skclowdus]

Hello again Karen,

You just said that bad things arn't really bad things but that they are "trials" specificly used by God to promote character. Either they are ment for punishment or ment for character, pick one

Sorry for the misunderstanding (probably due to my not being clear in my first post here). The verses I quoted in my first post specifically address believers, or the elect who have alreadty accepted Christ as Lord. In those cases trials are used to build character and to bring the believer closer to God. Trials may also be used by God to bring His elect to salvation. As to why the nonelect go through trials.....I don't really know, perhaps as punishment but perhaps not.

I don't spend to much time trying to figure God's motives out though. He has it under control and doesn't need my help.

[underdog118]

hey karen m,
well i'm not exactly calvinist, i dont really take a position on that b/c it doesnt really matter. I think He gives trials to everyone because many people find him in trials.

[Propitiated]

"How do you know "those who have earned Your Anger" necessarily means Jews and "who went astray" necessarily means Christians?"

*I don't know this is quoted verbatum from the Qur'an.

"Also, where does it say that Allah hates these people worse than polytheists or atheists?"

*"Those who have earned your Anger" Now what do you think the anger (capital "A") of Allah means? Does it mean he likes them?


"Why is his "truth" any more backed up than your "truth"?"

*Even if he claims to follow Islam he has no understanding of what he is following. The true Islam believer must learn how to read, write and fully understand arabic before turning to Islam. They pray, but they don't know what they are praying. Where's the truth in that?

"So? It still says he was crucified, it just says he didn't die from said crucifiction."

*No, (sigh) It says that Jesus was taken (to heaven) and replaced with someone that looked like him. This means Jesus didn't die on the cross.


Maybe they thought parts of it were inaccurate?

Are you referring to the parts that they left out about our sin being paid for?


Where does it say that Jihad is the only way to Heaven?

Read my post. I said "That's why they want to die for jihad it's the only way for their sins to be absolved." This statement had nothing to do with heaven. It dealt with the forgivness of sins.

[Propitiated]

Originally posted by Karen M


So? It still says he was crucified, it just says he didn't die from said crucifiction.



Karen

This statement right here concerns me. I think that you need to know and fully understand what Jesus has done for you by going to the cross and being crucified on it.:)

[rotj4]

Karen Quote:
So, basically, if someone with cancer lives, it must be God's intervention, and, if someone with cancer dies, its also God's intervention? Sorry, but I think that sounds like just a little too conveniant of a response... ;)


I never said that. I am only saying that if God allows someone to suffer and then die that he still is taking care of his promise of abundant life. WE WILL LIVE FOREVER. PERIOD. Nothing in this life will change that. I realize fully that the things of this world are very hard to take. We feel at the time that things are horrible but it is temporary. My God has set aside provision for all of us. Reread my statements.

[TruthWarrior]

Originally posted by JerryLove
There are many references to God sending the Isrealis to kill entire cultures because they had "good fields" or lived in Isreal with the Jews arrived. That's even less of a grudge than Al Quida has.

God had a better reason that than. Is He base? Will He not be just? God is just, and right. He gave the nations plenty of time to turn to Him. The Scripture clearly has shown that the people that inhabited the promised had disobeyed God and ignored Him for many centuries. They were beginning to destroy themselves with pornography, abortion, sodomy and other evils. Before the Israelites went into the land God promised them, He told them what He was doing with them and why the previous peoples were to be destroyed and driven out (Deut.7, particularly verses 1-6, the following):

"When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girga****es, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them:
3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.
5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.
6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth."

Karen M, if you read Gen. 6:5, 11-13 you see why God destroyed the earth with a flood:

"5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

"11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth."

[Karen M]

Good Morning All :)


Underdog:

>>>well i'm not exactly calvinist, i dont really take a position on that b/c it doesnt really matter. I think He gives trials to everyone because many people find him in trials.<<<

If you are not a Calvinist, He would then be giving trials to everyone equally. If evil is not "bad" but the method by which people come to him, then doesn't that imply universalism?



Prop:

>>>"How do you know "those who have earned Your Anger" necessarily means Jews and "who went astray" necessarily means Christians?"

*I don't know this is quoted verbatum from the Qur'an.<<<

Verbatum, perenthases included?


>>>"Also, where does it say that Allah hates these people worse than polytheists or atheists?"

*"Those who have earned your Anger" Now what do you think the anger (capital "A") of Allah means? Does it mean he likes them?<<<

It means he does not like them(if, indeed it is talking about Jews and Christians), but it does not necessarily say he hates them any worse than polytheists or atheists.



>>>"Why is his "truth" any more backed up than your "truth"?"

*Even if he claims to follow Islam he has no understanding of what he is following. The true Islam believer must learn how to read, write and fully understand arabic before turning to Islam. They pray, but they don't know what they are praying. Where's the truth in that?<<<

I think most Islamic people can read their own Holy Book ;), besides, have you even read the entire Bible from cover to cover?


>>>"So? It still says he was crucified, it just says he didn't die from said crucifiction."

*No, (sigh) It says that Jesus was taken (to heaven) and replaced with someone that looked like him. This means Jesus didn't die on the cross.<<<

Thats what I said above. Anyway, why is this any more true than your version? There is no real evidence either way...


>>>Maybe they thought parts of it were inaccurate?

Are you referring to the parts that they left out about our sin being paid for?<<<

If thats what they left out then sure :)


>>>Where does it say that Jihad is the only way to Heaven?

Read my post. I said "That's why they want to die for jihad it's the only way for their sins to be absolved." This statement had nothing to do with heaven. It dealt with the forgivness of sins.<<<

Very well, where does it say that the only way sins can be absolved is by Jihad?


>>>This statement right here concerns me. I think that you need to know and fully understand what Jesus has done for you by going to the cross and being crucified on it.<<<

I have already heard your version, yes :) I was just asking why it is more likely your version occured than the Muslim version...



rotj:
>>>I never said that. I am only saying that if God allows someone to suffer and then die that he still is taking care of his promise of abundant life. WE WILL LIVE FOREVER. PERIOD. Nothing in this life will change that. I realize fully that the things of this world are very hard to take. We feel at the time that things are horrible but it is temporary. My God has set aside provision for all of us. Reread my statements.<<<

I heard you the first time. You basically said that people will be happy and live forever no matter when they die just as long as they believe in your God, right? :)



Truthwarrior:

Thank you for your responses, but I was not debating whether it was "Just" or not for your God to kill all those people. I was showing that he DID kill all those people.

This corrisponds to Allah, because Allah also has a reason for killing all the people in his Holy Book. The people who crashed into the twin towers probably thought of it as a retaliation for Allah's will or something(which I should mention these individuals do not follow maintream Islam).

Basically, you were saying Allah had no reason to commit these acts in his book, and I was saying that, according to Islam, He did. You have simply shown how similar to Allah your God is. :)


Looking forward to your response,

Karen

[Propitiated]

"Verbatum, perenthases included?"

Yes.

"It means he does not like them(if, indeed it is talking about Jews and Christians), but it does not necessarily say he hates them any worse than polytheists or atheists."

OK


"I think most Islamic people can read their own Holy Book ;), besides, have you even read the entire Bible from cover to cover?"

I think it is a smaller number of people than you think. I have an english version and I can barely understand it and Yes I have. A few times.

"Thats what I said above. Anyway, why is this any more true than your version? There is no real evidence either way..."

One word. Eyewitnesses. It was just Muhammed in a cave with the Qur'an.

"If thats what they left out then sure :)"

If you want to stand before God with your sins on you be my guest.

"Very well, where does it say that the only way sins can be absolved is by Jihad?"

I have read enough of the Qur'an you can go ahead and look this up yourself. And yes it's in there.

"I have already heard your version, yes :) I was just asking why it is more likely your version occured than the Muslim version..."

The Muslim version is written by a single man with a single revelation. A single man who was not changed for the better by his revelation. The version that I read from is written by several people who have have the same SPIRIT and go through enormous life changes. Like I do and have. Read the bible it won't kill you. Don't go by what you have heard go by what you read on your own. I have read it from front to back and I do like to think I understood most of the meaning of what I read.

[TruthWarrior]

Originally posted by Karen M
Good Morning All :)

Truthwarrior:

Thank you for your responses, but I was not debating whether it was "Just" or not for your God to kill all those people. I was showing that he DID kill all those people.

This corrisponds to Allah, because Allah also has a reason for killing all the people in his Holy Book. The people who crashed into the twin towers probably thought of it as a retaliation for Allah's will or something(which I should mention these individuals do not follow maintream Islam).

Basically, you were saying Allah had no reason to commit these acts in his book, and I was saying that, according to Islam, He did. You have simply shown how similar to Allah your God is. :)


Looking forward to your response,

Karen

If had not remember that you did not believe in absolutes, I would say that u were being contradictory; for before it seemed u implied that God WAS unjust in killing those people.


U have not compared ALL the characteritics of Allah with my God. IF you did, you would see why there is such a tremendous hatred of Christans by Muslim fundmentalists. I myself have not studied it out, but the fundemental differene seems (and i say seems because i have no quotes) to be that Allah demands servitude over friendship, whereas teh God of the Bible says we should serve in order to be His friends. Allah is strikingly impersonal; the God of Israel---of the Bible---is quite the opposite.
Like propitiated said, read the Bible through...it won't kill you; only make u choke for Water.

[Karen M]

Hello again prop :)

sorry about the delay; I was gone over the holiday.



>>>I think it is a smaller number of people than you think. I have an english version and I can barely understand it and Yes I have. A few times.<<<

The Bible is also simi-hard to read. If it is their holy book I don't think a bit of odd translations is going to stop them from reading it and interpreting its meaning.


>>>One word. Eyewitnesses. It was just Muhammed in a cave with the Qur'an.<<<

According to the Bible there were eyewitnesses, yes. But, I don't think there really were. ;) Perhaps there were eyewitnesses at the crusifixion, but no one saw him rise from the dead.


>>>If you want to stand before God with your sins on you be my guest.<<<

Then you admit that there is a difference and you can't prove yours is any more correct then theirs is?



>>>I have read enough of the Qur'an you can go ahead and look this up yourself. And yes it's in there.<<<

By Jihad, they mean serving God, NOT holy war(though holy war is another meaning for the word). You have to interpret it within the context.



>>>The Muslim version is written by a single man with a single revelation.<<<

No, the muslim version contains every single prophet in the Bible with the addition of Muhommad(sp?).


>>>A single man who was not changed for the better by his revelation.<<<

Muslims believe he was.


>>>The version that I read from is written by several people who have have the same SPIRIT and go through enormous life changes. Like I do and have. Read the bible it won't kill you.<<<

I already have read the Bible, lol. ;)


>>>Don't go by what you have heard go by what you read on your own. I have read it from front to back and I do like to think I understood most of the meaning of what I read.<<<

Yes, I have read it too, and I do not believe most of it occured(or at least it is so slanted that its hard to tell what actually happened).


later,

Karen

[Karen M]

Hello again truthwarrior :)


>>>If had not remember that you did not believe in absolutes, I would say that u were being contradictory; for before it seemed u implied that God WAS unjust in killing those people.<<<

I have already been over morality about 50 times on different threads. I will say this again: not having absolute morals does NOT mean no morals. I fully believe it was unjust to crash planes into the twin towers.



>>>U have not compared ALL the characteritics of Allah with my God. IF you did, you would see why there is such a tremendous hatred of Christans by Muslim fundmentalists. I myself have not studied it out, but the fundemental differene seems (and i say seems because i have no quotes) to be that Allah demands servitude over friendship, whereas teh God of the Bible says we should serve in order to be His friends.<<<

Your God demands Glory over friendship, you live to serve him, etc. Sound familiar? ;)


>>>Allah is strikingly impersonal; the God of Israel---of the Bible---is quite the opposite.
Like propitiated said, read the Bible through...it won't kill you; only make u choke for Water.<<<

I have already read the Bible, thanks :) Have you? If you have, read through various other holy books and compare them. :) I especially recommend the story of Gilgimesh, written several hundred years before the OT.


Thanks,

Karen

[OnEaglesWings]

I'm not sure about the Muslim stuff, so I'm gonna break in and get back to gymnastgirls's question...the first suffereing in the world happened when Adam and Eve sinned. Today, we all choose Satan over God, and when you let the devil in you let suffering in. It's as simple as that...there is pain in the world because there is sin in the world. God doesn't swoop down and stop sin from happening (although he does a lot to prevent it if you're looking) so therefore He can't stop pain either.

[Novan_Leon]

I doubt its possible for anyone to sit down and, taking multiple religions apart piece by piece, logically differentiate Christianity from any others, at least in a huge way. But the fact is, if you cant look at the big picture and see the differences between "true" Christianity and Islam, "true" or "false", then I... Im not sure what to say, lol.

Just take a look at the fruits that Christianity produces and the fruits that Islam produces. Look at the Arab culture and compare them to the Christian culture. Anyone see what Im seeing?

[TruthWarrior]

Originally posted by Karen M
Hello again truthwarrior :)


>>>If had not remember that you did not believe in absolutes, I would say that u were being contradictory; for before it seemed u implied that God WAS unjust in killing those people.<<<

I have already been over morality about 50 times on different threads. I will say this again: not having absolute morals does NOT mean no morals. I fully believe it was unjust to crash planes into the twin towers.



>>>U have not compared ALL the characteritics of Allah with my God. IF you did, you would see why there is such a tremendous hatred of Christans by Muslim fundmentalists. I myself have not studied it out, but the fundemental differene seems (and i say seems because i have no quotes) to be that Allah demands servitude over friendship, whereas teh God of the Bible says we should serve in order to be His friends.<<<

Your God demands Glory over friendship, you live to serve him, etc. Sound familiar? ;)


>>>Allah is strikingly impersonal; the God of Israel---of the Bible---is quite the opposite.
Like propitiated said, read the Bible through...it won't kill you; only make u choke for Water.<<<

I have already read the Bible, thanks :) Have you? If you have, read through various other holy books and compare them. :) I especially recommend the story of Gilgimesh, written several hundred years before the OT.


Thanks,

Karen



i've read it through twice (perhaps three times..)..and i'm reading it even now, quite often.

Did u read it through?

read the story of Gilgamesh.....one can see it is sheer nonsense....
it produced no good...except perhaps as justification for the immorality of the Canaanites....


"Your God demands Glory over friendship, you live to serve him, etc. Sound familiar? "

Jesus said, "15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. " (Jn 15:15)

Before then He mentioned that he had chosen them (the disciples ) to spread teh Gospel for His Glory. Yes, God demands glory but not OVER friendship; friendship comes with it. God is our friend; but His Glory comes regardless. It's effortless. It's not as if He has to TRY to bring his glory. The Bible gives no inference that God has to overcome any difficulty as if He was obstructed. It's like what a light bulb does. It gives forth light and it gives of heat; but it gives off light over heat. Both are products; but one is more important than the other. That's not a perfectly analogy because God is not mechanical but i hope u get my point. It is God's nature to receive glory and His nature to be loving; by loving He recieves glory, but he loves unselfishly. That's what the Bible says.

[Karen M]

Good Morning Truthwarrior :D


>>>i've read it through twice (perhaps three times..)..and i'm reading it even now, quite often.

Did u read it through?<<<

Yes ;)


>>>read the story of Gilgamesh.....one can see it is sheer nonsense....<<<

This is your opinion. While we are on opinions: To me it sounded about as plausible as the Bible; it even had the flood story in it. In fact, the story of Gilgamesh was around hundreds of years before the OT, and it happened to be in an area where the Hebrews had easy access to it. I think that Gilgamesh is probably where the Hebrews picked up their flood story.



>>>it produced no good...except perhaps as justification for the immorality of the Canaanites....<<<

It is an ancient work of literature. It probably was an interesting story to those who read it, and though it didn't produce as much good as the Bible, it wasn't used as a cover for as much evil as the Bible either(though I personally think more good has come from the Bible than evil). And these things are probably mostly because it wasn't as widely read.



>>>Jesus said, "15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. " (Jn 15:15)

Before then He mentioned that he had chosen them (the disciples ) to spread teh Gospel for His Glory. Yes, God demands glory but not OVER friendship; friendship comes with it. God is our friend; but His Glory comes regardless. It's effortless. It's not as if He has to TRY to bring his glory. The Bible gives no inference that God has to overcome any difficulty as if He was obstructed. It's like what a light bulb does. It gives forth light and it gives of heat; but it gives off light over heat. Both are products; but one is more important than the other. That's not a perfectly analogy because God is not mechanical but i hope u get my point. It is God's nature to receive glory and His nature to be loving; by loving He recieves glory, but he loves unselfishly. That's what the Bible says.<<<

Still, why is this more plausible that the Muslim, Hindu, or Ancient Greek deities?



This is starting to get a bit off topic so we may want to start a new thread soon :)

Karen

[Joshwa... not JoshR77]

Read James!!!!!! We are to REJOICE in trials and tribulations!

[TruthWarrior]

"Good Morning Truthwarrior :D

>>>i've read it through twice (perhaps three times..)..and i'm reading it even now, quite often.

Did u read it through?<<<

Yes ;) "


AWESOME! I'm glad to know that..I can argue with u better now ;)



">>>read the story of Gilgamesh.....one can see it is sheer nonsense....<<<

This is your opinion. While we are on opinions: To me it sounded about as plausible as the Bible; it even had the flood story in it. In fact, the story of Gilgamesh was around hundreds of years before the OT, and it happened to be in an area where the Hebrews had easy access to it. I think that Gilgamesh is probably where the Hebrews picked up their flood story. "

Um......if i remember correctly, one of the Goddesses drank the blood of the victims...were they not drowned? IN addition, the God of the Bibe never required human sacrifice; he punished the children of Israel for doing the same. Also....the Hebrews didn't touch the story of Gilgamesh because the story had no credibility; the people who wrote it were brashly immoral. (u can counter that there is no morality; but that is for another thread...)



">>>it produced no good...except perhaps as justification for the immorality of the Canaanites....<<<

It is an ancient work of literature. It probably was an interesting story to those who read it, and though it didn't produce as much good as the Bible, it wasn't used as a cover for as much evil as the Bible either(though I personally think more good has come from the Bible than evil). And these things are probably mostly because it wasn't as widely read."

Umm....looking into the Caaninite culture u find that the Canaanites used their paganistic beliefs to promote homosexuality, bestiality, pornography, and prostitution. As well as abortion and the hideous idea of sacrificing their children by "passing them through the fire"---in other words, forcing them to walk through a fire, thereby being burned alive. The Phoenicians, relatives of the Canannites, did something simiilar but worse:
In sacrificing children (babies, actually) to their god, Moloch, the Phoenicians placed the children into the statue's hands, which were heated enough to burn the babies to death.
I wouldn't consider their religion very credible; it was anti-moral.

The only bad thing that men have used the Bible as a cover for is persecution. The Roman Catholic Church/Inquisition, which has shed plenty of blood in its past is a good example ; there are also ultra-fundemanlist (if they can deserve teh term fundamental) groups that have done harm in the past.
Evil will always be present but never so much as when the Bible is not.



>>>Jesus said, "15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. " (Jn 15:15)

Before then He mentioned that he had chosen them (the disciples ) to spread teh Gospel for His Glory. Yes, God demands glory but not OVER friendship; friendship comes with it. God is our friend; but His Glory comes regardless. It's effortless. It's not as if He has to TRY to bring his glory. The Bible gives no inference that God has to overcome any difficulty as if He was obstructed. It's like what a light bulb does. It gives forth light and it gives of heat; but it gives off light over heat. Both are products; but one is more important than the other. That's not a perfectly analogy because God is not mechanical but i hope u get my point. It is God's nature to receive glory and His nature to be loving; by loving He recieves glory, but he loves unselfishly. That's what the Bible says.<<<

Still, why is this more plausible that the Muslim, Hindu, or Ancient Greek deities?"

I'm sorry i wasn't very clear.

The Ancient Greeks did not even believe their own deities; they made them out to be "divine farces"--- heavenly (if u can call them that) jokes. Their own gods were living sinful, impure lives; wherewith can we truly call them dieties?

Hinduism is the opposite extreme of absolute skepticism; it is absolute ACCEPTicism. It accepts everything. If u ask, "Why is there evil?" Hinduism will answer, "It is not; it is an illusion." And yet "Hindu worship is steeped in purification rites..." (Ravi Zacharias, "Jesus Among Other Gods", pg.120--Mr. Zacharias is Indian). Hinduism is a contradiction. They say God is everything; but then, with what then can we call Him God? He has no personality; how is He a diety? If He is not separate from His creation, how did He create? Or was He created? Then, how can we call Him God?
so Hinduism's theology is an endless line of unanswered questions.

AS to the Muslim's deity, i cannot answer too well; I have not studied the Muslim's Allah much (which is ironic for my uncle's a Muslim). From what i've learned and observed, Allah is detached from his followers. They live in fear (in the "scared" sense) of him; unlike the God of the Bible whom we are to fear in the respectul sense, obedience to your father type of fear.
The God of the Bible stressed closeness with His followers.
(but i'll get back with u on more about Allah later...)

As we see that the other religions' dieties don't "hold water", the Judeo-Christian God is the only One left of the choices u posed to me.
He is the only One Who is perfect and Who fits the description of Diety.


Also, u brought this thread off track. AT first u used the Bible and God to support your claims; now u are attacking the very tool u were using.
WE must have a common ground on which to argue. If not, u could use one idea and then destroy it when i pick it up and so on. Let's agree on a basis else we will forever sink in a spiral of disagreement.

What new thread would u suggest?

[Karen M]

Good Afternoon Truthwarrior :)


>>>Um......if i remember correctly, one of the Goddesses drank the blood of the victims...were they not drowned? IN addition, the God of the Bibe never required human sacrifice; he punished the children of Israel for doing the same.<<<

Why is this any less likely than the Bible? Also, the Bible is used as a cover to attack, kill, and rape the people in neiboring towns(because God said so). Therefore, if their Gods told them to have human sacrifices(you will note this was considered for the good of their people because the God would then help their crops and such and the sacrificed victim would be rewarded in the afterlife), how is this any worse than your God telling the Hebrews to attack and murder people?


>>>Also....the Hebrews didn't touch the story of Gilgamesh because the story had no credibility<<<

Yes they would have, they were in the right area and time when Gilgamesh would have been well known. Remember, this is before the OT even existed; there was no Jewish religion.


>>>; the people who wrote it were brashly immoral. (u can counter that there is no morality; but that is for another thread...)<<<

Excuse me? First of all, I do believe there is morality, which I have stated several times on other threads. Second of all, the people who wrote it were no more or less immoral than the Hebrews; they were also just following what their God wanted.


>>>Umm....looking into the Caaninite culture u find that the Canaanites used their paganistic beliefs to promote homosexuality, bestiality, pornography, and prostitution. As well as abortion <<<

I see nothing wrong with those exept perhaps beastality, as it may be harmful to the animal.


>>>and the hideous idea of sacrificing their children by "passing them through the fire"---in other words, forcing them to walk through a fire, thereby being burned alive.<<<

That IS cruel, but I do not believe they did this, unless it was because their God said to(which, in my opinion, still does not make it okay, but it does bring them up to about the level of the Hebrews' murders).


>>>The Phoenicians, relatives of the Canannites, did something simiilar but worse:
In sacrificing children (babies, actually) to their god, Moloch, the Phoenicians placed the children into the statue's hands, which were heated enough to burn the babies to death.
I wouldn't consider their religion very credible; it was anti-moral.<<<

Same response as above.


>>>The only bad thing that men have used the Bible as a cover for is persecution. The Roman Catholic Church/Inquisition, which has shed plenty of blood in its past is a good example ; there are also ultra-fundemanlist (if they can deserve teh term fundamental) groups that have done harm in the past.
Evil will always be present but never so much as when the Bible is not.<<<

Oh, these are the "only" bad things huh? ;) Persecution is not something to just lightly be brushed off. These people killed and tortured other individuals because they did not have the same belief system. Also, I object to the statement that this is all that the Bible has been used to cover. It has also been used to cover the Hebrews' slaughter of neighboring peoples, the Crusades, the squelching of science(until the Rennasance), and much more, though thats what I can get off the top of my head at the moment.



>>>The Ancient Greeks did not even believe their own deities; they made them out to be "divine farces"--- heavenly (if u can call them that) jokes.<<<

This doesn't matter. The question was why they were less plausible than your Bible stories?

>>>Their own gods were living sinful, impure lives; wherewith can we truly call them dieties?<<<

Not all of them were cruel; and also, sense when is being moral a requirement for being a deity?


>>>Hinduism is the opposite extreme of absolute skepticism; it is absolute ACCEPTicism. It accepts everything. If u ask, "Why is there evil?" Hinduism will answer, "It is not; it is an illusion." And yet "Hindu worship is steeped in purification rites..." (Ravi Zacharias, "Jesus Among Other Gods", pg.120--Mr. Zacharias is Indian).<<<

Even if this is true; so what?


>>>Hinduism is a contradiction. They say God is everything; but then, with what then can we call Him God?<<<

So now being the creator of the universe requires that you not be everything?


>>>He has no personality; how is He a diety?<<<

I have lacked knowledge to comment on the truthfullness on previous questions about Hinduism; but I do know that this statement is false. The Hindu deity/dieties, if anything, is the liveliest diety with the most personality/personalities I have heard of.


>>>If He is not separate from His creation, how did He create?<<<

He probably took a part of himself and made it something else. Why is it a requirement that the universe and God be separate?


>>>Or was He created? Then, how can we call Him God?<<<

I think they believe that he just was; kind of like your God. Find out who created your God and you will find out who created the Hindu God. :)


>>>so Hinduism's theology is an endless line of unanswered questions.<<<

So is Christianity. So is every other religion.


>>>AS to the Muslim's deity, i cannot answer too well; I have not studied the Muslim's Allah much (which is ironic for my uncle's a Muslim). From what i've learned and observed, Allah is detached from his followers. They live in fear (in the "scared" sense) of him; unlike the God of the Bible whom we are to fear in the respectul sense, obedience to your father type of fear.
The God of the Bible stressed closeness with His followers.
(but i'll get back with u on more about Allah later...)<<<

Okay, again, why is any of this less plausible than your God?


>>>As we see that the other religions' dieties don't "hold water", the Judeo-Christian God is the only One left of the choices u posed to me.
He is the only One Who is perfect and Who fits the description of Diety.<<<

I believe this statement has not been adiquately backed up.


>>>Also, u brought this thread off track. AT first u used the Bible and God to support your claims; now u are attacking the very tool u were using.<<<

No, I believe that, historically, parts of the Bible may be accurate, parts of it are old myths taken from other religions, and parts of it are made up. I believe that the Bible is completely innactuate spritually. I am attacking the spiritual part of the Bible, but not the historical parts that I believe may be partially accurate.

For example, there is evidence that a lot of flood stories were written down around the same time the Black Sea would have flooded. Gilgamesh copied off of these and infused it into its own little story. I believe that the writers of the Bible were either also influenced by the older flood stories or were influenced by Gilgamesh when they wrote their flood story. This is what I mean by partially accurate.

I am attacking the parts I believe have no backing.

>>>WE must have a common ground on which to argue. If not, u could use one idea and then destroy it when i pick it up and so on. Let's agree on a basis else we will forever sink in a spiral of disagreement.<<<

Very well, how about anything you say has to be backed historically by several sources(for example, the flood stories or the meteor stories). But blantant claims that "God did this" are not acceptable as those claims are run throughout many different religions and we would then been heaped in confusion about what God said what. :)

Also, when I asked what made your God more plausible than other Gods; the religions I posted were examples, I was expecting more of an attempt to back your God rather than tear down other Gods. Even if you tear down every other religion in existance, you would still have to prove your own.


>>>What new thread would u suggest?<<<

Well, the original topic was the twin towers on Sept. 11, so I think we may have gotten a bit off track is all :)


Have a nice day :)

Karen