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View Full Version : Inclusivism versus Exclusivism


SSFSX17
12-18-2001, 09:01 PM
I have some very good friends who believe that Jesus is not the only way, but is simply *A* way.

I have argued that, considering that pretty much every single religion in the world, including Logic and Science, contradict each other in fairly fundamental ways. I have also told them that:
- Jesus is the only one that is supposed to have been raised from the dead. Few other religions try to claim that their own leaders had ever been risen from the dead.
- Christianity is not cult-ish, because they have accepted the Old Testament as true, and the New Testament is merely an addition to it to create a complete work called the Bible. Almost all other cults disregard selected portions of holy texts.
- Christianity is the only religion in which you do not get your own salvation in any way save the initial act of believing. Almost every single other religion believes either that there is no such thing as salvation, or that your salvation is gained through something you do in addition to confessing and believing.
- Christianity is not human-centered. It does not claim that humans have any kind of amazing power within them. It does, however, claim that humans were used to demonstrate the powers of God.

They have asked me about the veracity of the Bible, and I have told them this:
- People have gone to great lengths in order to copy the manuscripts word-for-word. In addition, there are repeated messages to not abridge the Bible, nor add any words.
- The Bible has the most readily available ancient manuscripts for it. No other historical document of that era in existence is backed by such ancient and numerous copies.

They have asked me about whether or not some of the Bible was ever corrupted, and I have told them this :
- If it was ever corrupted, it would have been made to obey human interests.
- The Bible repeatedly decries the basic human sinful nature.
- The Bible does not give anyone else the authority to "solve" anything or "save" anyone save God and Jesus.
- If the Bible had been corrupted by people, it would have definitely allowed for the works of humans to gain some kind of footing in Heaven.

They have asked me about whether or not Jesus had really said all those exclusivistic things in addition to the messages about love. They ask me why I don't think that love was his bottom line.
- The Gospels make special provision to show Jesus as beyond human, and as the fulfillment of Old-Testament prophecies.
- Luke indicates that he had undertaken some painstaking research in order to provide as accurate an account as possible to Theophilus. If Luke had made up any of that stuff, then surely someone checking his sources could have easily proven him wrong. Yet, there exists no source that we presently possess that attempts such a feat.
- The Gospels cover his death and resurrection heavily. If these were not the bottom line, they may not have even bothered, but rather focused on how Jesus was pleasing to everyone. But, rather, they focused on how his ideas were radical and got him crucified. Jesus was definitely not a people pleaser.
- Jesus repeatedly made references to a before time, and an after time. His parables were rife with references to the preparation, and then the coming. In addition, he had never used loving each other as the bottom line of very many of his parables.
- He got angry, and even damaged some property. In addition, he protested to many things without being tolerant of those things.

They often blame Paul's writings for haven perverted the original message of Jesus.
- If Paul had not truly been converted, he would have found a way to integrate his personal beliefs into the guise of Christianity. Yet, he openly proclaimed and wrote of ideas that were directly contradictory to everything that the usual persecutor of Christianity may have ever believed.
- All the other Christians that had been there since the beginning had trusted him and cooperated with him.

However, my friends still do not believe that Christianity is mutually exclusive with other religions. They still believe that one can pick and choose aspects of Christianity and dump the rest.

Jay42
12-19-2001, 08:40 AM
This question gets very sticky. We have to be very careful with the words we choose when this is discussed, and what our context is.

Is Christianity a religion exclusive of the others?
Yes. The theology is unique. BUT its practices are not (other world religions also have prayer, marry husbands & wives, believe in heaven, etc. ). Jews worship the same God we worship (the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, also called Yahweh or YHWH), but we differ on who Jesus was and how one's sins are absolved.

Was Jesus unique in claiming to be God?
Yes, out of all the major world religions (not the fringe or rinky-dink ones) he was the only prophet claiming to be in fact God.

Is Jesus the only way to heaven?
Yes, if you believe in the book of John and the writings of Paul. BUT, here's the possible kicker - some Christians believe (and you should not harshly judge them as only God really knows who gets saved) that Jesus has the power to save the repentant Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist who calls on God to be saved but may not know the name of Jesus or the story of the Gospel. Or, to quote CCM writer John Fisher, "Jesus IS the way, but there are many ways to Jesus."

I don't mean to stir up a hornet's nest here, just mainly want to say we have to be careful with our words and our contexts with these topics!

Chrysostom
12-20-2001, 02:59 AM
This essentially comes down to a few major points:
1. They're trying to create a god from God and put Him in a little box so that He fits into what they want life to be like.
2. They're opposing Scripture as God-breathed.

Things to tell them:
1. Point out to them that the apostles believed Scripture (yes, even the NT writings) to be God-breathed (2 Tim 3:16). Peter even calls Paul's writings Scripture (i forget where, but it's on my other computer. 2 Pet 2:26 maybe?)
2. Jesus is _the_ Way, _the_ Truth, and _the_ Light. No one comes to the Father except rhough Him. Jesus Hiimself said that ;)
3. If the Scripture isn't from God, how do we expect to learn about Him? How do they know that their view is right unless that can back it up, which is possible only through a hard copy? Next remind them that they don't believe this hard copy to be inerrant.
4. Point out times such as Romans 9 in which other salvation (specifically Jewish) is impossible. In Romans 4 it shows how people were saved by grace through faith even in OT times! The Bible takes great pains to show that there is only one way.

i could probably think of some others, but i should probably sleep, too ;)

musicman04
12-26-2001, 07:52 AM
I think a good book for your friends to read would be "A Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. It starts with Lee Strobel, a non-christian, wanting to see if the bible will pass any tests of validity. He interviews many historians, etc which all lead him to becoming a Christian in the end. I enjoyed the book a lot. There's just so much stuff I never even would've thought were "contradictions" at all, and it discusses so many different topics and so-called problems with the Bible. Hope it helps. God Bless and keep playin'

guitarman
12-26-2001, 09:51 AM
I second that suggestion!! It's an awesome book!! Get it and read it!!!



mustbenothing said:
Peter even calls Paul's writings Scripture (i forget where, but it's on my other computer. 2 Pet 2:26 maybe?)

guitarman says:
2 Peter 3:15 :D


mustbenothing said:
Jesus is _the_ Way, _the_ Truth, and _the_ Light. No one comes to the Father except rhough Him. Jesus Hiimself said that ;)

guitarman says:
Yup. Right here :)....
<p align=center>"6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
(John 14:6) (NIV)<p align=left>


Aaron

Phil
12-26-2001, 01:25 PM
My pastor taught on this on Sunday.
You guys have done a good job answering it...

OnEaglesWings
12-26-2001, 02:45 PM
Yeah, kudos guys...those are good answers.

But, what about this thing that Jay said: "Jesus IS the way, but there are many ways to Jesus." I know we can't judge who is saved and who isn't, but is there any Scriptural backing for someone who doesn't know Jesus' name but who asks the Lord to save him being saved? On the one hand, it is effectually Jesus who saves us, not God, so asking God wouldn't be enough, but are there any verses that go the other way?

Jay42
12-28-2001, 09:56 AM
OnEaglesWings -

Unfortunately scripture is fairly silent about the unsaved who are never presented a clear explanation of the Gospel. Other than Paul saying we are accountable because we have seen the creation.

But would anyone be so hard-nosed as to say that the pygmie in Africa or the Aborigine in Australia has absolutely no opportunity for salvation? Would you push it further and say a 1-year old baby who has seen the creation but not prayed the sinner's prayer is destined for hell (Some people use the age-of-accountability argument to get out of that one. Too bad that isn't scripturally backed either).

I realize what I have said above is quite a dilemma because it is hard to believe Jesus would save a Taliban soldier who, while dying, rejects his Islamic beliefs and simply calls out for GOD to save him.

My view in this example: I think Jesus is big enough to do this and sees the repentant HEART not the words. Jesus sees that this person was brainwashed from a young age and never received a clear explanation of the Gospel.

I do not stand on this view as scripturally-backed but I will also say it is not ANTI-sciptural.

And since Jesus said in John 10:10 that HE is the abundant life, everyone needs to hear the Gospel anyway.

I am by no means a universalist. I believe everyone who consciously chooses NOT to repent is destined for hell. I like C.S. Lewis's portrayal (in The Great Divorce) of Napolean pacing back in forth in hell, thinking only of HIMSELF and his war strategies. These are the unrepentant who refuse to expand their universe beyond their own ego, and they deserve separation from God following death.

JT
12-28-2001, 10:00 AM
Actually, I think Scripture is quite clear that you don't need to know the name of Jesus to be saved. Elijah and Moses, I think, came down from heaven and were talking with Jesus during the transfiguration. They died before Jesus existed. Romans also speaks of people who follow God's law without knowing it, but I don't know the exact words....

Chrysostom
12-30-2001, 04:42 PM
Jay42:
>>Unfortunately scripture is fairly silent about the unsaved who are never presented a clear explanation of the Gospel. Other than Paul saying we are accountable because we have seen the creation.<<

Paul's argument in the beginning of Romans is that all men are accountable, literally all.

>>But would anyone be so hard-nosed as to say that the pygmie in Africa or the Aborigine in Australia has absolutely no opportunity for salvation? Would you push it further and say a 1-year old baby who has seen the creation but not prayed the sinner's prayer is destined for hell (Some people use the age-of-accountability argument to get out of that one. Too bad that isn't scripturally backed either).<<

1. We've actually found some backing, not necessarily conclusive but likely, for AoA. Check the Theology section and run a search on "Age of accountability"
2. The "sinner's prayer" never saved anybody.
3. A pygmie has seen God displayed in creation.
4. It's not being "hard-nosed" to say that God hates sin. We are accountable for the sole reason that God says so, and He doesn't do so according to some man-made standard of "fairness." He does it according to the God-set standard of fairness: "I am God. What I say goes. That is fair."

Good day, brother.

Chrysostom
12-30-2001, 04:46 PM
Jesus is the only way, as presented in Scripture. If they tell you, "well, it's okay if you believe that way but i believe that we're all right" then i would tell them "you're wrong." Don't accept it, and don't water it down. Treat them with love and respect, but don't back down even once. State that Jesus is Lord and not the false god Allah or any other god created by men. Yahweh alone is the true God; Elohim is our master. We bow to the name of Jesus, and that is what all will do one day. There is no other way than He.

Isaiah 44:8b
No, there is no other Rock; i know not one