God.........

[MrCrabby]

Okay, i have two questions, #1. (to the Christians) How do you know that God exists? Don't just say "yes" or "no," give reasons, give examples where you've seen the power of God.
#2. (to the atheists and agnostics) How do you know that God does not exist? Give examples where you have seen the absence of God, and give reasons why God cannot exist. (we are not going to debate evolution vs. creation on this thread, please do not bring it up--anybody!)

Post away!
I'll post later.

[Karen M]

Hello GF :D


>>>#2. (to the atheists and agnostics) How do you know that God does not exist? Give examples where you have seen the absence of God, and give reasons why God cannot exist.<<<

I'm assuming you mean the Christian God?

The main problem would have to be that there is no evidence for the existance of your God. :( Usually when there is no evidence for or against something, that thing is false(such as the toothfairy and santa).

Also, there isn't any type of evidence that can prove the non-existance of something. All we can do is show that there is no evidence, that the claims are, in fact, contradictory to evidence, or that attributes and testimonies given in your discriptions or Holy Book are contradictory(which I believe the Bible is very contradictory to current science).

There is also the evidence and mass-corrilation suggesting that the Bible was written by a primitive society which was no different than Egyptian, Assyrian, or other religions. Yes, some sections of it are historically useful(for example, the world flood seems to have corrilated around the time geologists believe that the Black Sea flooded, and Lucifer falling in a ball of fire seems to corrilate to when they believe there may have been a large meteor shower), but most of it seems just like ancient myths, I'm afraid. :(

Also, the Bible uses scare tactics, sexist commentary, a large amount of what seems like wishful thinking(such as "if you just believe this then you will be forever happy because an omnipotent God will swoop you up into Heaven and make all those people you hate burn forever" ;) ), and it affirms the existance of the supernatural and witchcraft(of which there are also no evidence for). I'm sorry, but these things are quite common in old mythological religions. :(


I hope you see where I'm comming from...

Karen

[JerryLove]

Agreed. The evidence against your God is vast, though the "God did it that way on purpose" answer falls under the simple rule of occom's razor.

There is no evidence to support a God. There is no need for a God to fit the facts in evidence. Therefore God is, at best, unlikely speculation.

If I were to ignore this principle, I would have to accept basically every religion's view of God or Gods, as I cannot disprove Allah or Thor either.

[JerryLove]

I see many religions, many gods, many worldviews, and many perspectives on life... and i see that all those religions and gods- every one of them that i know of- is about being good enough, about living up to a set of standards, a set of rules... and that one "religion" is about a relationship w/ a God who recognized that we could never be good enough, that we could never live up to a set of rules but loved us enough to pay the price and provide a way out. Just though I would point out that for 3000 years, your religion *was* Judaism. And those are the belifs of Judaism.

Also worth pointing out that your belif that other all other religions require "worthyness" is untrue.

[MrCrabby]

Yes, i see where you're coming from.
I believe the Bible is very contradictory to current science
How so? Would you like to expound on that?
There is also the evidence and mass-corrilation suggesting that the Bible was written by a primitive society which was no different than Egyptian, Assyrian, or other religions.
Would you like to show me some of this evidence?
And, could a "primitive" society write works from different authors spanning several centuries, and still not have any contradictions?
(The only "contradictions" i've seen that could hold water are differing views in the gospels.)
but most of it seems just like ancient myths, I'm afraid.
I'm pretty sure that the thing about Lucifer is only a myth, unless you can find it in the Bible for me.
And many scientists believe in some kind of a world-wide flood.......(but i don't really want to get into scientific stuff right now, so i'll drop this)
Also, the Bible uses scare tactics,
Hmm.....i think it is actually quite the opposite, the Bible seems to look down on scaring people into heaven.
sexist commentary
Don't know where you get that one from.
Jesus was the greatest women's liberator of all time!
wishful thinking(such as "if you just believe this then you will be forever happy because an omnipotent God will swoop you up into Heaven and make all those people you hate burn forever"
Sorry, i dont' see this in the Bible either.
And "happy" and "joy" are two very different things.
"Happy" depends on circumstances.
"Joy" is forever, and only God can give that--i know--i've experienced it myself.......but.......that probably doesn't mean very much to you.
And heaven is only a small portion of all that salvation entails.
and it affirms the existance of the supernatural and witchcraft(of which there are also no evidence for).
Of course there is no evidence for it! That's why it's supernatural!
It cannot be explained.
About witchcraft, i say again, you need to go to Salem Massachusets!
Witchcraft does exist!
I'm sorry, but these things are quite common in old mythological religions
Yes, but it is the concept of a personal relationship to God that sets Christianity apart from other "old mythological religions."

Have a nice day,
mark

[MrCrabby]

Good posts Karen and Eggy.
Jerry, post your own views please.:)

I don't have too much time to make another lengthy post right now, so i'll just say, look at the life of a guy named Kurt Warner, if you don't know who he is, he is the quarterback for the St. Louis Rams.
He has an awesome life story!
If you ever get a chance, look into it!
And best of all, he gives all the credit for the success in his life to God.
I think that his life is an awesome example of God's power.

[JerryLove]

Christianity is the one religion that's about the fact that we can never be good enough... I thnk however that you miss the point. You said that you felt other religions were not true because they were based on behavior. However, you feel that (prior to Jesus) Judaism was true despite it meeting your critera (being dependant on acts). How can you claim that a religion based on acts was true, but no other are because they are based on acts?

Wicca has no action or worthiness to get into heaven. Neither do most transindental religions. Hinduism (as I understand it) only requires taht you do a good job in this life to get a good incarnation in the next. Ditto most Shinto beliefs. Daoism does not address an afterlife at all (in it's purist sense).

Also, I doubt that you could wander around killing everyone you meet but believing in Jesus and still expect to get into heaven (maybe you could). Do you think Hitler could be waiting in heaven? Certainly Satan believes in Jesus, having met him personally.

[JerryLove]

How so? Would you like to expound on that? Well, the Earth isn't 6,000 or so years old. Closer to 4,000,000,000. Man did not come into being within 2 days of every other animal. The moon is not a light. There is no layer of water above the stars. Hail is not stored by God somewhere to be used in case of war. The winds follow undersood rules of behavior. You cannot build a stone tower to heaven (as Voyager has yet to reach heaven and is far further than a stone structure could be built). A bowl 1 cubit in radius is not 3 cubits in diameter. Etc.

Would you like to show me some of this evidence? The Jesus bin Joseph legend borrows heavily from both the Roman God Mithras, and the Jewish history of Jesus Bin Purdiah (sp), a man from 100 BCE who went around healing the sick and was stoned to death for sorcery. His mother's name was Mary Magedline. The Noah flood is an obvious copy of the flood of Gilgamesh (right down the creation of the rainbow). Satan appeard from Zoroastrianism and is obviously modeled after the chief God of Babylon. Etc.

And, could a "primitive" society write works from different authors spanning several centuries, and still not have any contradictions? Ignoring the obvious "vague" and "edited" response. We non-Christians find so many contradictions, we don't understand how you Christians can deny them (like the difference in creation order between Genesis 1 and genesis 2). Though a consistant book would not be a terribly amazing feat (despite how much troubl modern television writers seem to have).

Hmm.....i think it is actually quite the opposite, the Bible seems to look down on scaring people into heaven. No. The first half is God using every opportunity to show hoe "mighty" and "powerful" and "terrifying" he is. And killing or having killed anyone who makes a mistake (like sweeping on the sabboth or living in Isreal when the Jews arrived). The second half talks about how bad hell is, and how much it will suck for you to be there.

Jesus was the greatest women's liberator of all time! Cite.

"Joy" is forever, and only God can give that--i know--i've experienced it myself.......but.......that probably doesn't mean very much to you. You just supported what you are arguing against.

Of course there is no evidence for it! That's why it's supernatural!
It cannot be explained. That is not what supernatural means, and explanation and evidence are unrelated. There is no emperical data that the supernatural exists.

About witchcraft, i say again, you need to go to Salem Massachusets!
Witchcraft does exist! You are correct. Witchcraft exists, magic and Satan do not.

Yes, but it is the concept of a personal relationship to God that sets Christianity apart from other "old mythological religions." Semi-unique ideas = true ideas?

[BIGFATJAM]

Where did we get the concept of God if he doesn’t exist?


And then there is the Bible...here are just a few facts on the Bible:

Written over a 1500 year span

More than 40 different authors form all walks of life including:
-kings, peasants, philosophers, fishermen, poets, statesmen and scholars, etc.

It was written in different places including:
-3 continents

Was written in 3 languages
-Hebrew, Greek, and Aramic

The subject matter contains hundreds of controversial topics yet its authors speak in harmony and continuity from beginning to the end!

If all the Bibles in the world today were to be destroyed, you would still be able to go to an average library and piece together the entire Bible from Biblical quotes found in other books.

The Bible is full of filled prophecies! The Old Testament alone has 300 prophecies pointing to the coming messiah, all of which were fulfilled in the coming of Christ! Some think that Christ, aware of these prophecies, orchestrated his life to fulfill them. However, many of these prophecies fulfilled were out of his control!

Here are few of them:

Isaiah 7:14 fulfilled in Mathew 1:18,24-25 (Born of Virgin);
Gen22:18 fulfilled in Mathew 1:1 (Seed of Abraham);
Gen 49:10 fulfilled in Luke 3:23,33 (Tribe of Judah);
Micah 5:2 fulfilled in Mathew 2:1 (Born at Bethlehem);
Jerem. 31:15 fulfilled in Mathew 2:16 (Herod Kills Children);
Isaiah 40:3 fulfilled in Mathew 3:1-2 (Preceded by Messenger);
Psalm 78:2 fulfilled in Mathew 13:34 (Spoke in Parables);
Isaiah 35:5-6a fulfilled in Mathew 9:35 (Ministry of Miracles);
Zech. 13:7 fulfilled in Mark 14:50 (Forsaken by Disciples);
Psalm 20 fulfilled in Mark 15:34 (…My God, why have you forsaken…).

Some think that this happened by chance. However if you toke the odds of 8 prophecies given 400-1000 years prior to their coincidental fulfillment, it would be as likely as filling up the state of Texas 2 feet deep with silver dollars and marking one coin, stirring the whole mass of coins thoroughly and blindfolding a man and telling him that he can travel as far as he whishes, but he must pick up the one silver dollar that had been marked in his first pick! ·In other words 1 in 10 to the 17th power!

·No other book in all of history has made an impact on the world more than the Bible.
·Many people have sought out to disprove the authenticity of the Bible, yet it still stands:
·”The Bible is an anvil that has worn away many weapons”

The complexity and authenticity of the Bible alone proves that there must be a God who loves us and strongly desires our knowledge of him.

[T-Diddy]

OK, so there's no scientific evidence that God exists, nor is there any scientific evidence that he doesn't. So here's why I believe.

...because the beauty, complexity and intricacies of the universe, earth and life are too much for me to see it as anything but an intelligent design.

...because when I stand on the top of mountain and look around all I can do is say "Thank you God".

...because when I get slapped upside the head and fall on my face and beg forgiveness, I know I didn't think to do that on my own.

...because when I'm facing a horrible situation or tough times and I pray, I am filled with a peace that passes all understanding.

...because I have seen people's lives turn 180 degrees from evil in a heartbeat.

...because months and years after something happened that didn't seem to have any chance of working for good despite my faith that God's will was being accomplished, it suddenly made sense as God revealed it.

...because I can't put the experience of worship and seeking God into words.

...because God speaks to me through his Word and proves Himself through his Word like no other god.

...because there are two options. Choose God and live in his hope or choose to deny God and live a pointless existence.

...because ever since Christ became a part of my life, I can't fathom life with Him.

[Jeremiah]

Off topic question. JerryLove and Karen M, why are ya'll registered on a Christian messageboard if your not Christians? No offense intended there I'm just curius.

[JerryLove]

And best of all, he gives all the credit for the success in his life to God. And what do you think of good pious people with crummy lives? Or good people with great lives that don't believe in your God? It's easy in a world of 6,000,000,000 to find examples of people claiming God did all teh good things in their lives and having good things. It's not too difficult to find counter examples eaither.

[JerryLove]

Off topic question. JerryLove and Karen M, why are ya'll registered on a Christian messageboard if your not Christians? No offense intended there I'm just curius. I was invited. Requested actually.

[Karen M]

Hello again GF :)

>>>Karen: I believe the Bible is very contradictory to current science

GF: How so? Would you like to expound on that?<<<

Well, lets start with Genesis shall we? ;)

For one thing, the Gen 1 account claims that the earth is created before light and stars. It also says that birds and whales came before reptiles and bugs, and that flowering plants came before animals.

God also creates light on the first day. I find that kind of hard to do considering the sun and the stars were not created until the fourth day(the source of light). Not to mention that plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes.

Then there is the little problem that the sky is not a large dome of water behind the sun…. ;)

Those are the first few, unless you want to start getting into the major ones such as the actual age of the earth and evolution? :)


>>>Would you like to show me some of this evidence?<<<

I already have: sexist use of language, lack of scientific understanding, scare tactics, wishful thinking, etc…


>>>And, could a "primitive" society write works from different authors spanning several centuries, and still not have any contradictions?
(The only "contradictions" i've seen that could hold water are differing views in the gospels.)<<<

It has many contradictions and the reason that the many books were included in one Bible was because they DID fit together in the first place(all the ones that they couldn’t either edit just a bit to fit or start with were thrown out). Unfortuanlty, they still couldn’t quite get out some off them. For example, in Gen 3:9-11, God calls around asking where Adam is and asks who told him that he was naked(what happened to being omniscent?). Also, in Gen 11:5, God came down to see a town(what happened to omnipresence?).



>>>I'm pretty sure that the thing about Lucifer is only a myth, unless you can find it in the Bible for me.
And many scientists believe in some kind of a world-wide flood.......(but i don't really want to get into scientific stuff right now, so i'll drop this)<<<

No, most scientists do not believe in a world-wide flood; most believe that the Biblical flood was based on the flood of the Black Sea. :)



>>>Hmm.....i think it is actually quite the opposite, the Bible seems to look down on scaring people into heaven.<<<

And telling people that they have to believe in Jesus or they burn in Hell for eternity doesn’t count?



>>>Don't know where you get that one from.
Jesus was the greatest women's liberator of all time!<<<

Well, for one, your Bible claims that God himself considered women no more than property; notice how in the 10 commandments, “thou shall not covet thy neighbor’s wife” is in there with the the ox, or the house, or anything else that is your neighbor’s “property”…

Also Gen 7:2 clearly states of every beast that you will take the male and HIS female; as if males owning females is the norm.

In Paul 5:22-24, it clearly claims that women are inferior to men and that women should submit themselves to men as they would to God.



>>>Sorry, i dont' see this in the Bible either.
And "happy" and "joy" are two very different things.
"Happy" depends on circumstances.
"Joy" is forever, and only God can give that--i know--i've experienced it myself.......but.......that probably doesn't mean very much to you.
And heaven is only a small portion of all that salvation entails.<<<

Very well, I’ll edit my wishful thinking response then…: If you just believe you will be swooped up by God to eternal Joy where you will have no more problems or worries and all the people you hate will conveniantly burn in hell forever.



>>>Of course there is no evidence for it! That's why it's supernatural!
It cannot be explained.
About witchcraft, i say again, you need to go to Salem Massachusets!
Witchcraft does exist!<<<

I really hope you aren’t talking about the Salem witch trials? :( That was a sick ordeal that killed 20 innocent people; it was a farce to gain land from the people hanged.



>>>Yes, but it is the concept of a personal relationship to God that sets Christianity apart from other "old mythological religions."<<<

No it doesn’t :) Also, why does it matter about having a relationship with God if you don’t even know if that God exists?


Karen

[Karen M]

hmm...it didn't show me those other posts until just now..:p

[Karen M]

>>>Off topic question. JerryLove and Karen M, why are ya'll registered on a Christian messageboard if your not Christians? No offense intended there I'm just curius.<<<

Someone invited us over to discuss evolution from a different messagboard :) After that I guess I just stuck around..

[Jeremiah]

I was just wondering.

[Karen M]

Hello Big :)

>>>Where did we get the concept of God if he doesn’t exist?<<<

Where do we get the concept of a pink elephant with 5 green horns and silver stripes that wears Nike shoes if it doesn't exist? :)


>>>And then there is the Bible...here are just a few facts on the Bible:

Written over a 1500 year span

More than 40 different authors form all walks of life including:
-kings, peasants, philosophers, fishermen, poets, statesmen and scholars, etc.

It was written in different places including:
-3 continents

Was written in 3 languages
-Hebrew, Greek, and Aramic

The subject matter contains hundreds of controversial topics yet its authors speak in harmony and continuity from beginning to the end!<<<

First of all, these things were specificly edited so that they wouldn't contradict too much; if a book couldn't be edited to fit, the book was thrown out. Also, there actually are still contradictions in the finnished version.


>>>If all the Bibles in the world today were to be destroyed, you would still be able to go to an average library and piece together the entire Bible from Biblical quotes found in other books.<<<

So?


>>>The Bible is full of filled prophecies! The Old Testament alone has 300 prophecies pointing to the coming messiah, all of which were fulfilled in the coming of Christ! Some think that Christ, aware of these prophecies, orchestrated his life to fulfill them. However, many of these prophecies fulfilled were out of his control!

Here are few of them:

Isaiah 7:14 fulfilled in Mathew 1:18,24-25 (Born of Virgin);
Gen22:18 fulfilled in Mathew 1:1 (Seed of Abraham);
Gen 49:10 fulfilled in Luke 3:23,33 (Tribe of Judah);
Micah 5:2 fulfilled in Mathew 2:1 (Born at Bethlehem);
Jerem. 31:15 fulfilled in Mathew 2:16 (Herod Kills Children);
Isaiah 40:3 fulfilled in Mathew 3:1-2 (Preceded by Messenger);
Psalm 78:2 fulfilled in Mathew 13:34 (Spoke in Parables);
Isaiah 35:5-6a fulfilled in Mathew 9:35 (Ministry of Miracles);
Zech. 13:7 fulfilled in Mark 14:50 (Forsaken by Disciples);
Psalm 20 fulfilled in Mark 15:34 (…My God, why have you forsaken…).<<<

I don't think he fulfilled all of those. Where do you have evidence of him fullfilling them outside of the Bible?


>>>Some think that this happened by chance. However if you toke the odds of 8 prophecies given 400-1000 years prior to their coincidental fulfillment, it would be as likely as filling up the state of Texas 2 feet deep with silver dollars and marking one coin, stirring the whole mass of coins thoroughly and blindfolding a man and telling him that he can travel as far as he whishes, but he must pick up the one silver dollar that had been marked in his first pick! ·In other words 1 in 10 to the 17th power!<<<

This would show just how unlikely it is that he actually fullfilled them....


>>>·No other book in all of history has made an impact on the world more than the Bible.<<<

Wester culture, yes...but I think you would have a hard time proving it is the most infuencial book in China or Japan ;) Also, why does impact make it true?

>>>·Many people have sought out to disprove the authenticity of the Bible, yet it still stands:
·”The Bible is an anvil that has worn away many weapons”<<<

Many people HAVE disproven the authenticity of the Bible, it still stands because it is a religion. The Bagad Vidas(sp?) has been around even longer than the Bible, are you claiming that because it has been around for so long it is also automaticly true? :)


>>>The complexity and authenticity of the Bible alone proves that there must be a God who loves us and strongly desires our knowledge of him.<<<

Well, of course, if it is authenticly written by God then God must exist. I, on the other hand, still think it is just a normal religion of a primitive society...


Be back in a few :)

Karen

[BIGFATJAM]

Thanks K for your thoughts. No time to refute right now but I'll try soon. :D

Oh one quick thing though.

>>>>Where do we get the concept of a pink elephant with 5 green horns and silver stripes that wears Nike shoes if it doesn't exist?>>>>

All those things already exist and you are just making random selections of adjectives to put together a ridiculous animal (quit creative I must add;) ). Please explain how we could have this concept of God if we cannot sense him with our senses?

[Karen M]

Greetings again Big :)


>>>All those things already exist and you are just making random selections of adjectives to put together a ridiculous animal (quit creative I must add ). Please explain how we could have this concept of God if we cannot sense him with our senses?<<<

I thought the pathetic human mind could not concieve of God?

Besides that, what do you think of when you think of your God? The old white man with a beard in the Michelangelo paintings? A big white light? I think you have put together something you have already sensed with your human senses and added on attributes such as omnipotence and omniscence.

Also, your God, the Islamic God, and the Hindu Gods are all mutually contradictory. You probably concieved of your God the same way they concieved of theirs.


later :)

Karen

[BIGFATJAM]

Ok I will talk about and develop the concept of God debate more in the near future (I don't think either of us have tapped into it's full potential for discussion). However I will quickly ask, where did humans get such an intense need and desire to worship something greater than them? Could it possibly be that we were in fact created to worship the one and true living God? We do not see other animals (if there is no god than we are really just intelligent animals right?) worshiping other objects/gods?

In the meantime I would appreciate your thoughts on the subject of morality.

You cannot deny that all humans (with the exception of a small extreme cases) have a sense of what is morally right and wrong. Everyone universally agrees that it is wrong to kill someone and it is also wrong to steal, rape, cheat, ect. Were did we get this moral code? Obviously we must have received this moral code from a code maker--God :) To me it seems objectively obvious.

There have been extremely intelligent men and women who have diligently studied the Bible and have strongly supported the claims of the Bible. So I don't view atheism as much of an intellectual issue but a heart issue.


Ok now I really must go...later :D

Please let me know what you think...thanks!

[Travis]

Hey Karen:)

Originally posted by Karen M
I don't think he fulfilled all of those. Where do you have evidence of him fullfilling them outside of the Bible?

Remember that it is not like there is one author who says there was this prophesy and Jesus fullfilled it, it was a collection of authors who, centuries later, all said the same thing- that he did, in fact, fullfill them.

[MrCrabby]

Hail is not stored by God somewhere to be used in case of war.
This is the kind of stuff that i really dont' want to get into now.
But....where does the Bible say this?
You cannot build a stone tower to heaven
I think you're talking about the tower of Babel.
Apparently, they thought that they could.
I don't see how it disproves the Bible though.
A bowl 1 cubit in radius is not 3 cubits in diameter.
Where is this found?
Jesus bin Joseph
The Hebrew term is "bar" not "bin."
The Noah flood is an obvious copy of the flood of Gilgamesh
What if it's the other way around?
Moses came along quite awhile after Noah.
I'm sure there was plenty of time for the Gilgamesh Epic to be written before Moses wrote Genesis.
(like the difference in creation order between Genesis 1 and genesis 2).
Haven't you lost that argument more than once?
The first half is God using every opportunity to show hoe "mighty" and "powerful" and "terrifying" he is.
You forgot loving, and just and merciful, and faithful, etc.
Cite.
Gladly.
Look at Mary Magdalene, she was a prostitute, someone who the religious leaders wouldn't even look at, yet Jesus ate dinner with her.
Another example is the woman who was caught in the act of adultury, Jesus said those famous words "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." And he told her to go free, without punishment. There are other examples, but i think this should suffice.
It's easy in a world of 6,000,000,000 to find examples of people claiming God did all teh good things in their lives and having good things.
"Every good and perfect gift comes from above."
Whether or not you believe in God.

[Unregistered]

For one thing, the Gen 1 account claims that the earth is created before light and stars. It also says that birds and whales came before reptiles and bugs, and that flowering plants came before animals.
Okay, Genesis 1:1 is talking about the beginning foundation of the earth, not the completed earth.
I fail to see how the other things are contradictions or inconsistensies.
God also creates light on the first day. I find that kind of hard to do considering the sun and the stars were not created until the fourth day(the source of light).
This is like my gravity argument.
I said that if there were no planets, then there could be no gravity. (Jerry smashed that)
You're saying that if there is no sun or stars, then there can't be light.
Light is universal, it exists whether or not there is a sun, moon or stars.
Those are the first few, unless you want to start getting into the major ones such as the actual age of the earth and evolution?
No, actually i wouldn't, i didn't start this thread for a debate.
I already have: sexist use of language, lack of scientific understanding, scare tactics, wishful thinking, etc…
Yes, and i asked for cites on these things.
It has many contradictions and the reason that the many books were included in one Bible was because they DID fit together in the first place(all the ones that they couldn’t either edit just a bit to fit or start with were thrown out).
The OT (to my knowledge) has never been edited, it is in it's pure, and unedited form. (Look at the Dead Sea Scrolls)
And the NT follows the OT.
Anything that was written which was contradictory to the OT was thrown out, yes; this was done to keep the Bible from having errors.
in Gen 3:9-11, God calls around asking where Adam is and asks who told him that he was naked(what happened to being omniscent?). Also, in Gen 11:5, God came down to see a town(what happened to omnipresence?).
The earlier is putting God is human form.
Obviously, a human cannot be everywhere at once.
And, think of the questions He asked like a father would. Even though the father already knows that the son broke the window, he asks him "who broke the window?"
I think the latter is only an expression.
No, most scientists do not believe in a world-wide flood
I said "many" not "most."
And telling people that they have to believe in Jesus or they burn in Hell for eternity doesn’t count?
God's message is one of love and grace.
Because of sin (our fault) we are all condemned to die.
Because of God's grace, we can live forever.
Also Gen 7:2 clearly states of every beast that you will take the male and HIS female; as if males owning females is the norm.
Actually, it was the norm.
That's just what society was like then.
In Paul 5:22-24, it clearly claims that women are inferior to men and that women should submit themselves to men as they would to God.
Paul is not a book.
And i think Paul also goes on to say "husbands love you wives as Christ loves the church."
and all the people you hate will conveniantly burn in hell forever.
Hmm....i see quite the opposite.
Matthew 5:41-48 speaks on loving your enemies.
I really hope you aren’t talking about the Salem witch trials? That was a sick ordeal that killed 20 innocent people; it was a farce to gain land from the people hanged.
No, i'm talking about witchcraft.
Believe me, if you ever go to that city, there will not be a doubt in your mind.
Also, why does it matter about having a relationship with God if you don’t even know if that God exists?
I know that God exists:)

Good night.

[MrCrabby]

Okay, back to the original point of this thread......

One reason how i know God exists is the power of prayer.
There are TONS of examples, but i will give you a recent one.

There's a guy i know named Micah, he goes to our youth group, and i'm good friends with his family, one night, he and a few of his friends were driving somewhere, two guys were in the front, and he was in the back of the pickup.
As they were going around a turn, Micah fell out, he hit his head on the ground, he was very badly injured.
Well, they took him to the hospital, where they put him into a forced coma because he was fighting so much with the doctors.
A few days later he fell into a real coma, his future looked grim at best.
If he lived, he would most certainly have massive brain damage.
So, his family, his friends, and his youth group all started praying for him.
Needless to say, almost exactly when we were gathered to pray one time, Micah woke from his coma.
This was only about 5 or 6 days after the accident.
He spent 3 weeks in the hospital, and now has no permanant side-effects of the accident.

There's only one way i, his family, and even his doctors can explain that miracle...............God.


Disprove that!

[Karen M]

Hello again Big :)


>>>Ok I will talk about and develop the concept of God debate more in the near future (I don't think either of us have tapped into it's full potential for discussion). However I will quickly ask, where did humans get such an intense need and desire to worship something greater than them?<<<

You are asking what I personally think? They want protection. I'm trying to be as unoffencive as possible, but this is the quickest way to say it: They want Mommy back :)


>>>Could it possibly be that we were in fact created to worship the one and true living God?<<<

It is possible, but I do not believe this is likely...


>>>We do not see other animals (if there is no god than we are really just intelligent animals right?) worshiping other objects/gods?<<<

Thats because they are not intelligent enough to have the concept that their actions might effect nature or their situation(people are intelligent enough to believe that something they do can effect their situation. Worship comes under one of these attempts, though I do not believe it works...)


>>>In the meantime I would appreciate your thoughts on the subject of morality.<<<

To be short, it basically comes from a mixture of evolutionary instinct, logic, and social contract.

This is not the topic, but if you wish to start a new thread on this that would be fine :)


>>>You cannot deny that all humans (with the exception of a small extreme cases) have a sense of what is morally right and wrong. Everyone universally agrees that it is wrong to kill someone and it is also wrong to steal, rape, cheat, ect. Were did we get this moral code?<<<

Social contract, logic, and evolutionary instinct, as I said before :)


>>>Obviously we must have received this moral code from a code maker--God To me it seems objectively obvious.<<<

You can believe this if you want. I do not hold this view.


>>>Another question to those who are proclaimed atheists…Are you afraid of acknowledging that there is a God for fear that you may be held accountable to such a God?

No. :)


>>>Are you looking at the evidence objectively or not because you fear what may happen if there truly is a God?<<<

Also no.


>>>The reason I ask is because I view atheism more as a heart issue vs. an intellectual issue.<<<

I view atheism as more of an intellectual issue. And I would also appreciate it if you would not give my view a psycological anaylisis unless I ask for one. You wouldn't want me saying that I think most Christians are only Christians because they have been brainwashed and brought up that way would you? :)


>>>The majority of atheists are atheists because they do not want to be held accountable to anyone other than himself or herself.<<<

This is inncorrect.


>>>To me that's a heart issue. There have been extremely intelligent men and women who have diligently studied the Bible and have strongly supported the claims of the Bible. So I don't view atheism as an intellectual issue but a heart issue.<<<

You can feel free to have that view if you want. I, on the other hand, tend not to automaticly assume that people must have an emotional base for their claims just because they don't have exactly the same view as me. ;)


Was an interesting post,

Karen

[Chrysostom]

Jerry, you said:

--A bowl 1 cubit in radius is not 3 cubits in diameter.--

Where is this?

[Jeremiah]

Ok you want proof that God exists. This is only one example.

I have a friend who was in a really bad car accident earlier this year. He was thrown from the car through the windshield when he hit a ditch. When he made it to the hospital he was in a coma and the doctors didn't expect him to live another 12 hours at the most. Much to they're surprise he did. After a few days whenever they turned him over the pressure in his head would go over 80. Anything over 20 is supposed to have permanant brain damage. A few days later he started to wake up from the coma and respond to his mom, the doctors didn't want him doing that so they put him back in a coma. A few weeks later with the pressure in his head still jumping to 80 or so every time they rolled him over, they started to bring him out of the coma. When he came out the coma and his mom asked him if he knew her he looked at her like she was crazy or something and told her yes. That was sevaral months ago and he is fine. No brain damage. He can walk, talk, and do anything he did before. All the time he was in the hospitall the doctors were waying he wouldn't make it past the next day.

That is a miracle, and that is proof of God.

[Unregistered]

Hello Unreg(GF?) :)


>>>Okay, Genesis 1:1 is talking about the beginning foundation of the earth, not the completed earth.<<<

Very well, it claims that the beginning of the foundation of the Earth started before light and stars.


>>>I fail to see how the other things are contradictions or inconsistensies.<<<

The order contradicts current science


>>>This is like my gravity argument.
I said that if there were no planets, then there could be no gravity. (Jerry smashed that)
You're saying that if there is no sun or stars, then there can't be light.
Light is universal, it exists whether or not there is a sun, moon or stars.<<<

I am not saying there can be no light if there are no sun and stars; I am saying that the source of light for the Earth is the sun and stars, which were not created yet(unless you want to claim that God used some other light source?)



>>>Karen: I already have: sexist use of language, lack of scientific understanding, scare tactics, wishful thinking, etc…

Unreg: Yes, and i asked for cites on these things.<<<

Which I provide later in the post.


>>>The OT (to my knowledge) has never been edited, it is in it's pure, and unedited form. (Look at the Dead Sea Scrolls)
And the NT follows the OT.
Anything that was written which was contradictory to the OT was thrown out, yes; this was done to keep the Bible from having errors.<<<

My point exactly. The reason your book is not more contradictory is because they threw out or edited anything that didn't fit.



>>>The earlier is putting God is human form.
Obviously, a human cannot be everywhere at once.
And, think of the questions He asked like a father would. Even though the father already knows that the son broke the window, he asks him "who broke the window?"
I think the latter is only an expression.<<<

Okay, I'll give those too you, though I think the second answer is questionable ;)

How about this: Ezra 2:15 and Neh. 7:20

How many children did Arah and Adin have?


>>>I said "many" not "most."<<<

Name one that believes there was a world-wide flood based on evidence rather than for religious reasons.



>>>God's message is one of love and grace.
Because of sin (our fault) we are all condemned to die.
Because of God's grace, we can live forever.<<<

I wasn't asking how the situation of "Accept Jesus or burn forever" came about according to your Holy Book; I was showing that said book contained scare tactics. Yes or no, do you believe that if you threatened someone with torture if they did not comply that they would be more likely to do what you want?



>>>Actually, it was the norm.
That's just what society was like then.<<<

This wasn't just society. You didn't address the commandment, which came directly from your God, proclaiming that women were equal to property.


>>>Paul is not a book.<<<

Sorry, I ment Ephesians 5:22-24 :) Paul is the one speaking...


>>>And i think Paul also goes on to say "husbands love you wives as Christ loves the church."<<<

So? He has still claimed that women are inferior to men, has he not?


>>>Hmm....i see quite the opposite.
Matthew 5:41-48 speaks on loving your enemies.<<<

By defintion, if someone was their "enemy" back then, they were probably a non-Christian. Therefore, it doesn't matter what Matt says about loving your enemies, their perfect Heaven would still send anyone they didn't like to Hell. Also, you can not control your emotional state toward someone.



>>>No, i'm talking about witchcraft.
Believe me, if you ever go to that city, there will not be a doubt in your mind.<<<

Cite. If this has anything to do with the Salem witch trials, I can tell you right now they were fake.


>>>I know that God exists<<<

Of course you think he exists. You were trying to argue a stratigy in which you claimed we should believe in God because he would have a relationship with us. The point was that if the person you are debating with doesn't know that he exists, then your point is moot. ;)


Have a nice day,

Karen

[Karen M]

That was me...:p

[Karen M]

Hello again GF :)


>>>Okay, back to the original point of this thread......

One reason how i know God exists is the power of prayer.
There are TONS of examples, but i will give you a recent one.

There's a guy i know named Micah, he goes to our youth group, and i'm good friends with his family, one night, he and a few of his friends were driving somewhere, two guys were in the front, and he was in the back of the pickup.
As they were going around a turn, Micah fell out, he hit his head on the ground, he was very badly injured.
Well, they took him to the hospital, where they put him into a forced coma because he was fighting so much with the doctors.
A few days later he fell into a real coma, his future looked grim at best.
If he lived, he would most certainly have massive brain damage.
So, his family, his friends, and his youth group all started praying for him.
Needless to say, almost exactly when we were gathered to pray one time, Micah woke from his coma.
This was only about 5 or 6 days after the accident.
He spent 3 weeks in the hospital, and now has no permanant side-effects of the accident.

There's only one way i, his family, and even his doctors can explain that miracle...............God.<<<

Yes, I have heard several of these. I am happy for your friend, but if he had died then what? Then God just didn't hear you that time? What about the poor girl in the other room that got prayed for by her family and still got sick? Or the little boy down the hall with cancer who died 2 days later? etc. etc. Prayer "works" about the same percentage that people get lucky :)

[Karen M]

Hello Saradoc :)


>>>Ok you want proof that God exists. This is only one example.

I have a friend who was in a really bad car accident earlier this year. He was thrown from the car through the windshield when he hit a ditch. When he made it to the hospital he was in a coma and the doctors didn't expect him to live another 12 hours at the most. Much to they're surprise he did. After a few days whenever they turned him over the pressure in his head would go over 80. Anything over 20 is supposed to have permanant brain damage. A few days later he started to wake up from the coma and respond to his mom, the doctors didn't want him doing that so they put him back in a coma. A few weeks later with the pressure in his head still jumping to 80 or so every time they rolled him over, they started to bring him out of the coma. When he came out the coma and his mom asked him if he knew her he looked at her like she was crazy or something and told her yes. That was sevaral months ago and he is fine. No brain damage. He can walk, talk, and do anything he did before. All the time he was in the hospitall the doctors were waying he wouldn't make it past the next day.

That is a miracle, and that is proof of God.<<<

I am also happy for your friend, but its the same thing. He got the lucky break. These remind me of a time when a schoolbus crashed and only 3 children survived and their parents were saying "Thank God!" Now, yes, its good that they lived, but it would have been slightly nicer of God if there had been no crash at all now wouldn't it have been? ;) What about the other 20 children on the bus? I think its more likely the 3 survivors got lucky on probability.

[Jeremiah]

Yes, I have heard several of these. I am happy for your friend, but if he had died then what? Then God just didn't hear you that time? What about the poor girl in the other room that got prayed for by her family and still got sick? Or the little boy down the hall with cancer who died 2 days later? etc. etc.

Than that just means that He had a better plan.

[Jeremiah]

There is no way that could be "Luck". All the doctors said he wouldn't live. Even my dad. (sorry I've got to brag on my dad here) Who was awarded Young Internist of the Year back in 1995. They all agreed that he wouldn't live another 12 hours. And every time they said that they were wrong. If you can call that "luck" go ahead. But all the doctors said it was a miracle. A miracle that could only be accomplished by God. And my dad was the only one that is a Christian.

These remind me of a time when a schoolbus crashed and only 3 children survived and their parents were saying "Thank God!" Now, yes, its good that they lived, but it would have been slightly nicer of God if there had been no crash at all now wouldn't it have been? What about the other 20 children on the bus? I think its more likely the 3 survivors got lucky on probability

Once again that just means God had a different plan. I've got to go to bed I'll post more tommorow.

[Bryan]

Originally posted by KarenM
How about this: Ezra 2:15 and Neh. 7:20

How many children did Arah and Adin have?

The two citations you mentioned are lists of Israelites who had returned to Jerusalem after Captivity in Babylon.

Ezra was completed c. 440BC. So at the time the number of exiles that had returned to Jerusalem from Babylon of Adin was 454 and the number of children of Arah was 775.

Nehemiah was completed c. 430 BC. According to Nehemiah there were 655 of Adin and 652 of Arah.

The numbers are different becuase the books were written at least 10 years apart. In the case of Adin, there could have simply been more exiles that returned from Babylon. In the case of Arah whose number decreases I don't know. Their death rate could have been high or some could have left Jerusalem.

This is not a contradiction, these are accounts of a census done at differnt times, which are at least ten years apart.

[The__Freak_Show]

The truth of the matter is that you cannot convince the unbelieve that God exists with words. Only through prayer and love can you bring one to Christ. But because I am here at the moment, I would like to use words for something :)

When you say that the Bible contradicts modern science, you are mistaken. The Bible shows that God is all powerful and has the power to do anything that is not evil. These things that defy our knowledge of science are works done by God, and seeing that he created the universe in its entirety, he can go around any physical and man-made laws he pleases. Other than that, there is nothing that contradicts science as we know it(believe me, we really don't know all that much about science :)) I just thought I would be informative, here :) Not proving anything, just trying to make sure all the facts are straight(this is probably coming off as a defensive statement, but it's not! :))

There really isn't a too much point in this topic, but I suppose others may disagree :) By the way, wasn't this originally supposed to be a topic with statements giving evidence for one belief or another? :)

[JerryLove]

Wow, busy thread.

This is the kind of stuff that i really dont' want to get into now.
But....where does the Bible say this? If you are "not going to get into this now", I'm not going to look it up. (It's addressed to Job, that should narrow down your search).

I think you're talking about the tower of Babel.
Apparently, they thought that they could. So did God. Rereadt that portion of Genesis, he scattered the languages out of fear.

Where is this found? My bad, it's 10 and 30, not 1 and 3 (same problem) and it's 1 Kings 7.

What if it's the other way around? Then there are some issues of temporal physics to account for.

Haven't you lost that argument more than once? I've had it more than once. I've seen nothing but apologetics in response.

You forgot loving, and just and merciful, and faithful, etc. So did he.

Look at Mary Magdalene, she was a prostitute, someone who the religious leaders wouldn't even look at, yet Jesus ate dinner with her. OK, you've got two examples of "not killing" them. Would you care to show how he improved their status? How he elveated them up from the "property" level that the writings of God placed them at?

[JerryLove]

Okay, Genesis 1:1 is talking about the beginning foundation of the earth, not the completed earth. There were stars when the material that would become the Earth had not yet formed (in fact, heavy elements are formed *by* stars). The others are equally untrue as an order of appearence.

This is like my gravity argument. Yes, you are wrong just like then. Light is electromagnetic radaion. For an area (say the Earth) to be lit, there must be a source of such radiation, itherwise it all just flies off.

I'll leave the rest to Karen, it's her response.

[JerryLove]

One reason how i know God exists is the power of prayer. Yea, and every study says the results are equal regardless of religion, and regardless of weather prayer is actual prayer, good wished, or spells. If they are supported, it makes a better case for the power of thought on reality than a Diety.

There are TONS of examples, but i will give you a recent one. Sometimes people live. It has nothing to do with prayer. I'll give you a less recent one I remember (wish I could put the name to it). There was a man on an expadition (believe fur trapping) heading west in the 1800s. He was greviously wounded and fell into a coma. The group left two people behind to care for him, but after several days he hadn't woken up, so they left. He did come out of the coma, severly injured and alone. He crawled more then 10 miles to a millitary fort where he recovered. (He wanted revenge on the two, but one he found out was very young, and the other had joined the millitary (killing of millitary personall carried a dether sentance).

The point is, no one prayed for him, and he survived pretty hopeless odds. It happens.

OTOH, I had quite a few praryer groups praying for me when I had cancer and it did not go into remission after months of prayer and many chemos. I finally had to have a Bone Marrow Transplant (that worked.. so far).

[JerryLove]

That is a miracle, and that is proof of God. And when my dad's car accident triggered a combination stroke / congestive heart failure / heart attack last month? What does that prove? If every unusual positive outcome is the proof of and result of God, should I assume every unusual negative outcome is also God being evil?

Next you'll start talking about winning the lottery as being a miriacle.

[BIGFATJAM]

Karen M

You stated:
>>>>>I view atheism as more of an intellectual issue. And I would also appreciate it if you would not give my view a psychological analysis unless I ask for one. You wouldn't want me saying that I think most Christians are only Christians because they have been brainwashed and brought up that way would you? >>>>>>

I do want to apologize for the end of my most recent. In my haste and zealousness for discussion I crossed the line for which I deeply apologize. I have deleted that part of my post and hope that we can put it behind us ;)

On a side note I really wouldn't mind if you wanted to give "my view" a psychological analysis for it would give me greater insight as to were I should take our discussion in the future:) This isn't an invitation to do so---just a thought for discussion. I am confident in who I am in Christ and I would have no problem with anyone having their own perception of my beliefs. It just gives me a greater opportunity to know how to share...that’s all on this particular subject. Hope you understand.

[BIGFATJAM]

Question for those who choose not to believe in God. From your perspective could you please explain what happened to me in this situation?

For me this situation clearly demonstrates the power of prayer, and thus the reality that God exists.

In 1988 or '89 I was spending some time in quite prayer. I began to try to meditate and concentrate on shutting everything out in my efforts to seek God. I quietly prayed, "Lord if there is anything that I should pray for please reveal it to me." I continued to wait silently before the Lord. All of a sudden, in a daydream like state, in my mind I pictured a guy who was in serious trouble. He was surrounded by rubble and he was clearly trapped and in trouble. I didn't know if I was just daydreaming or if God was really revealing this to me for prayer. Regardless I stepped out in faith and began to pray for this man for some time. Shortly after I finished my prayer time I went to bed...forgetting what had just happened. When I woke up the next morning I didn’t think much of my prayer time (in other words it wasn't on the forefront of my mind). I sat down to watch some Saturday morning TV and all of a sudden there were reports of a huge earthquake that happened during the night in L.A. In the middle of the news coverage (on one particular station I had just happened to stop at) there was all of a sudden a bunch of commotion. As the reporter was reporting live, there was a sudden report that they had just found a survivor. As it caught my attention (and once again not thinking about my prayer time the night prior) I began to watch intently. When they pulled this survivor from the rubble I was shocked (though I shouldn’t have been) to see that this man matched the exact description of the man I had prayed for the night before. I find it difficult to believe that this happened simply by coincidence

I share this story, not to say look how God used me, or to boast in anyway. I share it as a means for discussion. The other "answered prayers" posts so far do have a probability of chance. However, I don't think that you can say this particular situation happened by chance...but naturally I am biased. Please look at this example objectively and let me know what you all think.

[MrCrabby]

I am not saying there can be no light if there are no sun and stars; I am saying that the source of light for the Earth is the sun and stars, which were not created yet(unless you want to claim that God used some other light source?)
Well, as the Bible explains it, God IS light.
So, to my understanding, yes, light can exist without the sun and stars.
My point exactly. The reason your book is not more contradictory is because they threw out or edited anything that didn't fit.
And this is wrong because......?:)
Name one that believes there was a world-wide flood based on evidence rather than for religious reasons.
I've been rethinking this, and, i think that many scientists believe in *a* flood, because of the many accounts (like the Gilgamesh Epic), and evidence that one happened.
They don't necessarily believe in the Biblical account.
I'll drop this one.
Yes or no, do you believe that if you threatened someone with torture if they did not comply that they would be more likely to do what you want?
Actually, from my experience, they are less likely to accept Christ if you try to scare them into Christianity.
The best way to evangelize is with love.
This wasn't just society. You didn't address the commandment, which came directly from your God, proclaiming that women were equal to property.
It's the same.
God was speaking to them in a way which was applicable to the times.
He didn't say "treat your wife as property."
So? He has still claimed that women are inferior to men, has he not?
I think his point was that men and women have different jobs.
Men are made to be leaders of the home and church, and wives are meant to be caretakers of the home.
It is also the husbands job to love the wife, and it is also the wife's job to support the husband.
To me, this doesn't seem very sexist.
their perfect Heaven would still send anyone they didn't like to Hell.
When Jesus said to "pray for your enemies," those prayers are supposed to be for salvation.
Also, you can not control your emotional state toward someone.
Correct. It can only be accomplished by the power of the Holy Spirit.:)
Cite. If this has anything to do with the Salem witch trials, I can tell you right now they were fake.
No, i'm not talking about the witch trials.
If it's okay with you, i'm dropping this, i don't think it has much relevance to what i'm saying.
Of course you think he exists.
I *know* for a fact, you can only wonder now.

Have a nice day:)

[JerryLove]

Well, as the Bible explains it, God IS light. So, are you saying you would support Gen 1:15-16 translated as follows?

"and let there be gods in the expanse of the sky to give god on the earth." And it was so. God made two great gods--the greater god to govern the day and the lesser god to govern the night. He also made the stars."

I've been rethinking this, and, i think that many scientists believe in *a* flood, because of the many accounts (like the Gilgamesh Epic), and evidence that one happened. Yes, just not a world-wide one.

God was speaking to them in a way which was applicable to the times. God has to adapt to relative POV? I thought people were supposed to adapt to God.

When Jesus said to "pray for your enemies," those prayers are supposed to be for salvation. Why? What others pray about you does not affect weather you go to heaven or not.

[Karen M]

Good Afternoon Big :)


>>>I do want to apologize for the end of my most recent. In my haste and zealousness for discussion I crossed the line for which I deeply apologize.<<<

Accepted. :) Everyone does that occationally so don't feel too bad.



>>>Question for those who choose not to believe in God. From your perspective could you please explain what happened to me in this situation?

For me this situation clearly demonstrates the power of prayer, and thus the reality that God exists.

In 1988 or '89 I was spending some time in quite prayer. I began to try to meditate and concentrate on shutting everything out in my efforts to seek God. I quietly prayed, "Lord if there is anything that I should pray for please reveal it to me." I continued to wait silently before the Lord. All of a sudden, in a daydream like state, in my mind I pictured a guy who was in serious trouble. He was surrounded by rubble and he was clearly trapped and in trouble. I didn't know if I was just daydreaming or if God was really revealing this to me for prayer. Regardless I stepped out in faith and began to pray for this man for some time. Shortly after I finished my prayer time I went to bed...forgetting what had just happened. When I woke up the next morning I didn’t think much of my prayer time (in other words it wasn't on the forefront of my mind). I sat down to watch some Saturday morning TV and all of a sudden there were reports of a huge earthquake that happened during the night in L.A. In the middle of the news coverage (on one particular station I had just happened to stop at) there was all of a sudden a bunch of commotion. As the reporter was reporting live, there was a sudden report that they had just found a survivor. As it caught my attention (and once again not thinking about my prayer time the night prior) I began to watch intently. When they pulled this survivor from the rubble I was shocked (though I shouldn’t have been) to see that this man matched the exact description of the man I had prayed for the night before. I find it difficult to believe that this happened simply by coincidence

I share this story, not to say look how God used me, or to boast in anyway. I share it as a means for discussion. The other "answered prayers" posts so far do have a probability of chance. However, I don't think that you can say this particular situation happened by chance...but naturally I am biased. Please look at this example objectively and let me know what you all think.<<<

Well, if this did happen, I think it is possible that perhaps you had a daydream about someone in rubble, and then they pulled someone out who probably triggered the memory. I think its unlikely the two were related though :)


Karen

[BIGFATJAM]

Originally posted by Karen M
Well, if this did happen, I think it is possible that perhaps you had a daydream about someone in rubble, and then they pulled someone out who probably triggered the memory. I think its unlikely the two were related though

I must clarify that the man I saw on TV didn't just look like the man I had seen in a vision, but he matched the exact description...dark hair, light color skin, cuts on his face, red shirt, blue jeans, no facial hair, etc. And not to mention that the setting was precisely the same as what God revealed to me.

I don't think you can brush this example off as coincidence or a simply something that triggered my memory. To me the choices seem clear: either it happened or I am simply making this up.

Again...thank you for your thoughts as well as accepting my apology for my other post:) Have a wonderful afternoon!

[Karen M]

How are you today GF? :)


I"ll try not to be too redundant to Jerry....


>>>Well, as the Bible explains it, God IS light.
So, to my understanding, yes, light can exist without the sun and stars.<<<

As highlighted before, if God already exists and God IS light, why does Genesis claim he MADE the light?



>>>Karen: My point exactly. The reason your book is not more contradictory is because they threw out or edited anything that didn't fit.

GF: And this is wrong because......?<<<

Basically, it takes away your arguement that the Bible doesn't have that many contradictions because of the 40+ writers from different areas etc. thing. The entire reason all these writers didn't completly clash with eachother was because they edited the writings so they would fit and threw out those that were too far off.



>>>I've been rethinking this, and, i think that many scientists believe in *a* flood, because of the many accounts (like the Gilgamesh Epic), and evidence that one happened.
They don't necessarily believe in the Biblical account.
I'll drop this one.<<<

Drop this one? You just admitted that the majority of the scientific community does not believe the Biblical account of the flood and that those few who do believe it specificly on religious grounds. This IS where science clearly contradicts your Bible. You can't just "Drop this one" and make it go away... ;)



>>>Actually, from my experience, they are less likely to accept Christ if you try to scare them into Christianity.
The best way to evangelize is with love.<<<

Of course they are less likely to CONVERT to Christianity if you throw that at them, because, no offence, but its kind of out there..:) I am specificly addressing it as a scare tactic to keep people within Christianity. For example, wouldn't the fact that Christians believe they will be tortured for eternity if they convert from Christianity at least somewhat modivate them to stay? :)



>>>It's the same.
God was speaking to them in a way which was applicable to the times.
He didn't say "treat your wife as property."<<<

He didn't? :)...Lets see, Exodus 20:17: You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your NEIGHBOR'S WIFE, or slave, or ox, or donkey, or anyTHING(notice, wives are a "thing" now...) that BELONGS TO YOUR NEIGHBOR.



>>>I think his point was that men and women have different jobs.
Men are made to be leaders of the home and church, and wives are meant to be caretakers of the home.
It is also the husbands job to love the wife, and it is also the wife's job to support the husband.<<<

First of all, this may have worked in early times when the main job was farming, which took muscle, and this passage would make more sense if it was written by a primitive early society rather than a God. In your book, it sounds as if this rule was also intended to apply to today, but your God, being omniscent, would have known that not all jobs would be based on physical strength.

Second, even if you have women taking care of the house and men doing the farm, it still clearly says that women are considered inferior to men and that men are the leaders.


later,

Karen

[Karen M]

Hello again Big :)


>>>I must clarify that the man I saw on TV didn't just look like the man I had seen in a vision, but he matched the exact description...dark hair, light color skin, cuts on his face, red shirt, blue jeans, no facial hair, etc. And not to mention that the setting was precisely the same as what God revealed to me.

I don't think you can brush this example off as coincidence or a simply something that triggered my memory. To me the choices seem clear: either it happened or I am simply making this up.<<<

I don't think you are making it up on purpose, but I do think that you may have just had a fuzzy memory of the daydream and then assumed it was the same guy when you saw the man on TV. You THEN took in his exact discription, the setting, and what he was wearing. Before, I think you probably just had a blurry daydream about a man in a dangerous area.


Karen

[JerryLove]

I"ll try not to be too redundant to Jerry.... Apologies if I am stepping on the preverbial toes. I'm *trying* to leave you to respond to posts directed at you, but I am not succeeding very well. :(

[Jeremiah]

Originally posted by Karen M
He didn't? :)...Lets see, Exodus 20:17: You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your NEIGHBOR'S WIFE, or slave, or ox, or donkey, or anyTHING(notice, wives are a "thing" now...) that BELONGS TO YOUR NEIGHBOR.


True that is in the Bible. But God said that husband and wife are to become one. What one owns the other owns.

[BIGFATJAM]

Originally posted by Karen M
I don't think you are making it up on purpose, but I do think that you may have just had a fuzzy memory of the daydream and then assumed it was the same guy when you saw the man on TV. You THEN took in his exact description, the setting, and what he was wearing. Before, I think you probably just had a blurry daydream about a man in a dangerous area.

So if I understand you right, I can assume that you basically think I am incompetent to distinguish between what I saw;) don't worry I wont take the compliment (or lack there of) to heart ;)

And I would like to point out you are taking much liberty to make some strong assumptions about my personal experience regarding this. I say this not because I don't value or want to hear your opinion on this, but to simply point it out. Either my account for recalling this experience either happened the way I described it (with much detail and little room for speculation) or I am simply a liar and it just didn’t happen. That's just the way I see the situation.

Anyway I got some more ideas rolling around in my head but I gotta run. Thanks again for your thoughts!

[JerryLove]

True that is in the Bible. But God said that husband and wife are to become one. What one owns the other owns. You mean like when you and your artifical arm become as one, or when you as your dog act as one.

Genesis 3:22 - God and man become like one.

1 Cor 11:3 "Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man"

1 Cor 11:7-10 "A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head."

1 Timothy 2 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety."

[JerryLove]

And I would like to point out you are taking much liberty to make some strong assumptions about my personal experience regarding this. I say this not because I don't value or want to hear your opinion on this, but to simply point it out. Either my account for recalling this experience either happened the way I described it (with much detail and little room for speculation) or I am simply a liar and it just didn’t happen. That's just the way I see the situation. I would tend toward "self delusion" which is common when attempting to recall detail in fuzzy events (you fill in the blanks) or when you *really* want something. But of the two you offer, you would leave me to call you a liar. Karen may choose whatever she wishes.

[Karen M]

>>>Apologies if I am stepping on the preverbial toes. I'm *trying* to leave you to respond to posts directed at you, but I am not succeeding very well.<<<

Thats okay Jerry :) Actually, I am interested in your responses because sometimes you think of things that I didn't catch. Also, the thread was addressed to everyone, so anyone can hop in and answer posts at any time. :p

[Jeremiah]

Just forget I said anything.

[Karen M]

Hello JSmith :)

>>>Just forget I said anything.<<<

I'll interpret this as a sarcastic comment to nudge us to look back and see what you wrote...:p

I am sorry if you took my not answering for ignoring. :( I was not ignoring; I just assumed you had already made your point. You basically said that if something good against usual odds happens, then God must have done it, and if something bad happens then it was "in God's plan."

There isn't really much I can say to that exept perhapse that I personally think that its just more likely that most of the time someone gets in car crash going 60 miles an hour that flips over the car, they arn't going to survive, but there will be a few that beat the odds by luck.


Karen

[Jeremiah]

That's not at all what I was talkin about. It dosn't bother me that you didn't answer that for a while.

[BIGFATJAM]

Greetings Karen!

Originally posted by Karen M
BIGFATJAM Stated: However I will quickly ask, where did humans get such an intense need and desire to worship something greater than them?

Karen M stated: You are asking what I personally think? They want protection. I'm trying to be as [inoffensive] as possible, but this is the quickest way to say it: They want Mommy back :)

Sorry I didn't come back to this one earlier but I did want to talk about it some more. In my humble opinion I think this is a really week argument for explaining the need for humans to worship. Could you please develop this more?

The need for protection = the need for worship is an inaccurate observation of why many choose to worship (yes in some cases the "I want my Mommy back" syndrome might be the case but across the board, from my observation, it is truly the minority).

From my personal experience, I worship and follow the God as described in the Holy Bible because He is a God worthy of my worship. I do not follow God in order to obtain protection. God may or may not choose to protect me as He sees fit. This is clearly demonstrated in the story of Job as well as in James chapter one which states, "Consider it pure joy my brothers whenever you face trials of many kinds because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance…” To me this does not seem like protection. In fact, living the Christian faith is not easy! It's not "pie in the ski" faith that promises all is well if you just accept Christ as your savior. True one does receive eternal life when doing so and thus obtains freedom from sin and eternal death, but I worship first because He is worthy of my worship...the result of doing so is the gift of eternal life. It is an end to the means not a means to the end. The bottom line is being a Christian is not easy. It is not for the weak hearted either.

Anyway there are my two bits on that subject:)

[Karen M]

Good Morning Big :)


>>>Sorry I didn't come back to this one earlier but I did want to talk about it some more. In my humble opinion I think this is a really week argument for explaining the need for humans to worship. Could you please develop this more?<<<

It was mostly a psycological anaylisis as, in that instance, you had asked my personal opinion. If you want me to develop it more, it would go something like this:

People instinctivly want to survive and want to gain the most self-benefit possible. Your God provides, not only protection, but promise of eternal life and joy. I believe you choose to believe in your God because 1) your brain is wired that way(it has been shown some people have more activity in certian areas of their brain that tends to corrilate with how religious they are), 2) you want protection, happiness, and eternal life(from evolutionary instinct), 3) you have been brought up to be Christian and/or live in a Western country(notice how, if someone is Muslim, most likely they were brought up that way, if someone is Hindu, most likely they were brought up that way, and if someone is Christian, most likely they were brought up that way. Basically, people always seem to have the religion that they were brought up to have or at least the main religion within the region they live. For example, even if you had not been brought up Hindu and you lived in India, chances are, if you were going to convert to a religion, it would be Hindu. Therefore, I'm going to take a guess that you live either in Europe or America ;) ), and 4) You have been brought up to believe that if you think of converting to anything besides Christianity, you will go to Hell.


This was not intended to be offencive. As I have already said, this is just my take, and the only reason I am saying this is because you specificly asked for what I thought. I actually think that this part of the post is off topic of the thread, as we are supposed to be discussing reasoning why we personally adhere to a belief rather than stating our bias about other's beliefs. If you would like to continue your topic about "What non-Christians think of Christians and what Christians think of non-Christians," perhaps you should start a different thread. :)


>>>The need for protection = the need for worship is an inaccurate observation of why many choose to worship (yes in some cases the "I want my Mommy back" syndrome might be the case but across the board, from my observation, it is truly the minority).<<<

Just as the above was my opinion, this is your opinion. ;)


>>>From my personal experience, I worship and follow the God as described in the Holy Bible because He is a God worthy of my worship. I do not follow God in order to obtain protection. God may or may not choose to protect me as He sees fit. This is clearly demonstrated in the story of Job as well as in James chapter one which states, "Consider it pure joy my brothers whenever you face trials of many kinds because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance…” To me this does not seem like protection. In fact, living the Christian faith is not easy! It's not "pie in the ski" faith that promises all is well if you just accept Christ as your savior. True one does receive eternal life when doing so and thus obtains freedom from sin and eternal death, but I worship first because He is worthy of my worship...the result of doing so is the gift of eternal life. It is an end to the means not a means to the end. The bottom line is being a Christian is not easy. It is not for the weak hearted either.<<<

Okay, I see the reason you worship your God now. I was just wondering what your reasoning is for why you choose the Christian version? :)

Also, if you worship God because you simply believe he is worthy of it rather than specificly because you want to go to Heaven or because you think it makes life on Earth good, than I think you may want to talk to some of the Christians posting on the "Christians = Egoists???" thread. :) Some of them have claimed that they worship God because of what they get out of it. I am NOT saying that egoism is the reason your worship him and I think you should be able to worship your God for any reasons you choose; I am just saying that there are examples of Christians with an egotistic morality(which I do not consider a bad trait).


I'll be back in a few :)

Karen

[BIGFATJAM]

Originally posted by Karen M
I actually think that this part of the post is off topic of the thread, as we are supposed to be discussing reasoning why we personally adhere to a belief rather than stating our bias about other's beliefs. If you would like to continue your topic about "What non-Christians think of Christians and what Christians think of non-Christians," perhaps you should start a different thread. :)

Before we continue in our friendly discussion I would like to clarify my interpretation of this thread. As I reviewed the two original questions that started this thread, it seems apparent to me (and maybe no one else) that it was started with the intention for debate on the existence of God with evolution being off limits. Maybe I am interpreting these questions wrongly and I should start a more appropriate thread. Are there any suggestions from others or from GzusPhreek2k since he started the thread?

Original post:

Okay, i have two questions, #1. (to the Christians) How do you know that God exists? Don't just say "yes" or "no," give reasons, give examples where you've seen the power of God.
#2. (to the atheists and agnostics) How do you know that God does not exist? Give examples where you have seen the absence of God, and give reasons why God cannot exist. (we are not going to debate evolution vs. creation on this thread, please do not bring it up--anybody!)

[MrCrabby]

Yeah, you got it Big.

This thread has not turned out to be what i wanted it to be.:(

Oh well, sorry guys.

[BIGFATJAM]

Originally posted by GzusPhreek2k
Yeah, you got it Big.

This thread has not turned out to be what i wanted it to be.:(

Oh well, sorry guys.

I apologize for not understanding the original questions. But I still am unclear what this thread is about then. Oh well.

[MrCrabby]

It was about offering evidence for the existence/non-existence of God.

Like, the power of prayer, things that couldn't have just been coincidence. People were posting things like that, and it was going good, but then it just went downhill.

Or, on the other hand, reasons why God cannot exist, to answer the second question.

[BIGFATJAM]

Once again, please accept my apologies for not totally understanding this thread. I was involved in both aspects...offering personal experiences that point to my belief in God and stuff that was not directly related. My bad :(

[MrCrabby]

Oh no, you don't need to apologize!

I did it too!

[Chrysostom]

To return to the original question:

Why do i believe in God?
1. The sky. Prepare to ream me for this, but every time i look at the sky i know that we are not the greatest thing to exist and that Almighty God designed this world.

2. Bible prophecy. There are much too many prophecies fulfilled to be ignored.

3. Personal experience. A "Jesus feeling" or something is quite easy to toss aside, i totally agree. However, there are just too many cases in which i can't explain what happened except by God. These are a couple:

a. My father went to Canada. One night, he woke up feeling the presence of evil and knowing that he had to pray. He did not call or write home. Upon returning home, the first thing his father did is ask what happened that night. He, also, had woken knowing he had to pray for his son.
b. My girlfriend had just left my dorm, and i went to sleep. After about an hour i woke with the frightening feeling that she was in trouble and knelt to pray. Of course, i dismissed this as my paranoia. The next day she called, and urgently explained her near-death experience of the night before. It seems that a probably drunk driver swerving across the slippery road had almost hit her. Asking her the time, i already realized God’s hand. She replied with the exact time i had woken to pray.
c. When i was "saved," i was not at a church and i had not heard a message. i did not care about this "religion" stuff and i hated sunday school. God somehow entered me in my room. i felt it, and i understood it. i was truly changed in lifestyle and personality. Only years later did i make the connection between this and Jesus.
d. A little over a year ago, on October 10, i was going through a tough time. This was the ninth year i had been saved. i prayed and prayed to God for help, knowing i desperately needed Him and could not help myself. i had no idea how to hear from Him, so i said, "God, i'm going to open this Bible. Please speak to me through the page i open it to." i opened it at random, and was surprised to find myself in Ezekiel 24. Ezekiel 24:1 reads, "In the ninth year, in the tenth month, on the tenth day..." Ninth year of salvation, tenth month, tenth day (Oct 10).

[Karen M]

Good Afternoon Must :D


>>>Why do i believe in God?
1. The sky. Prepare to ream me for this, but every time i look at the sky i know that we are not the greatest thing to exist and that Almighty God designed this world.<<<

Consider yourself reamed ;)


>>>2. Bible prophecy. There are much too many prophecies fulfilled to be ignored.<<<

According to the Bible there are. I don't believe they were really fulfilled.


>>>3. Personal experience. A "Jesus feeling" or something is quite easy to toss aside, i totally agree. However, there are just too many cases in which i can't explain what happened except by God. These are a couple:<<<

Ah, the infamous personal experience ;) Allow me to retaliate with Eastern Religion. :) These stories come out of a book about Feng Shui(Full name is "Feng Shui, a Practical Guide to Health, Wealth, and Happiness" by Farrington):


a. A man worked 60 hours in his office but found nothing paid off. He re-designed his living room following feng shui rules. Within a month the people who were causing him problems at work left or were sacked; he won a promotion and clinched an important deal.(pg. 43)

b. A businessman consulted a feng shui specialist after working on the same project for months without success. Using wind chimes the specialist activated the sluggish energy in his wealth and career sectors and within a month he had been promoted. The subsequent increase in pay solved his personal financial difficulties.(pg 35)

c. A family sought advice from a feng shui consultant when their teenage son lost interest in schoolwork. The consultant helped his parents to activate the northeast corner of his bedroom and the living room with the use of lights. After three months his relieved parents noticed that his level of effort had increased enormously.(pg 33)

d. A woman working from home was in the firing line from the door, a metal filing cabinet behind her and a curved deskin front. After re-organising her office in accordance with feng shui her business was quickly re-vamped and a variety of long-term projects came to fruition unexpectedly quickly.(pg. 64)

e. One client of a feng shui consultant discovered that every time she left the light on during the night in the southwest sector of her living room an new romantic association began. Most significantly, it involved a long-time friend who turned into a lover.(pg 29)

f. A bank boss was concerned about the lack of support he received from members of staff. Concerned at his exposed office, a feng shui expert put in blinds to improve support, moved his desk, installed a querin to deflect shar chi from a nearby building and popped a model of a tortoise in a north-facing cupboard. Soon he reported that persistent headaches had lifted, staff were being more co-operative, and arguements had deminished.(pg 67)

g. Three women working in the same office all sufferend with stomach problems. The door of their office opened up into a kitchen area dominated by a sink which was polluting energy as it entered the office. After a visit from a feng shui consultant a screen was installed blocking off the sink and the health of all the women dramatically improved as the symptomes faded. (pg 27)


Convenced of the mystic powers of feng shui now? ;)

Karen

[Chrysostom]

>>According to the Bible there are. I don't believe they were really fulfilled.<<

Well, perhaps you can be logically skeptical regarding the Messianic prophecies. However, there is no way you can ignore the prophecies regarding Rome's attack on Jerusalem.

>>Ah, the infamous personal experience ;) Allow me to retaliate with Eastern Religion. :) These stories come out of a book about Feng Shui(Full name is "Feng Shui, a Practical Guide to Health, Wealth, and Happiness" by Farrington):<<

Perhaps Feng Shui does have power (through chaos theory, perhaps?)

Moreover, each of these is very general examples. It doesn't even give names! However, i'm sure that these people are somewhat sure that Feng Shui is right. Therefore, this gives me every right to believe in God from my own perspective, yes?

Good day, Karen :D

[Karen M]

Hello agian Must :D


>>>Well, perhaps you can be logically skeptical regarding the Messianic prophecies. However, there is no way you can ignore the prophecies regarding Rome's attack on Jerusalem.<<<

And where are those prophacies and how specific are they? ;)



>>>Perhaps Feng Shui does have power (through chaos theory, perhaps?)

Moreover, each of these is very general examples. It doesn't even give names! However, i'm sure that these people are somewhat sure that Feng Shui is right. Therefore, this gives me every right to believe in God from my own perspective, yes?<<<

lol, actually I was using Feng Shui as an example into the "why should we believe this religion any more than we believe yours?" catigory. :p....Also, I never said that people had no right to believe what they believe; this is simply a debate board, so I am debating :)


I would say "God Bless," but I suppose he wouldn't count it I don't actually believe in him now would he? :p I guess I'll leave with:

Peace :)

Karen

[Jeremiah]

This may not be very good proof but I'll give it anyway.
In Genisis 13:16 where God promised Abram many descendants. "And I am going to give you so many descendents that, like dust, they cannot be counted." Now a few chapters later in Gen. 15:5 "Then the LORD brought Abram outside beneath the night sky and told him, 'Look up into the heavens and count the stars if you can. Your descendents will be like that---too many to count!" And again in Gen. 22:17 "I will bless you richly. I will multiply your descendents into countless millions, like the stars of the sky and the sand on the seashore." Now when the Bible was written that would seem like a pretty unscientific comparision there. There weren't any giant telescopes than, and the naked eye could only see about 3,000 stars. But now, with giant telescopes we can see that there are as many stars as there is grains of sand. If they didn't have any telescopes when the Bible was written, how would the writter know that there are as many stars as there is grains of sand?

I know that's pretty lame proof, but's it a start. I might be back with more later.

[Chrysostom]

Hello, Karen :D

>>And where are those prophacies and how specific are they? ;)<<

i'll compile a list and get back to you. Basically, the first 20 chapters of Revelation, parts of Daniel, and others.

>>lol, actually I was using Feng Shui as an example into the "why should we believe this religion any more than we believe yours?" catigory. :p....Also, I never said that people had no right to believe what they believe; this is simply a debate board, so I am debating :)<<

haha lolz ;) Perhaps Feng Shui and Christianity can co-exist, eh?

God bless, Karen :)

[guitarman]

Originally posted by Karen M
And where are those prophacies and how specific are they?
Off the top of my head....

Here's one that mentions specifically the destruction of the Temple. It was fulfilled in 70 AD by the Roman invasion of Jerusalem :).

"1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 'Do you see all these things?' he asked. 'I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.'"
(Matthew 24:1, 2) (NIV)

Just one of many. John will have to dig up the rest. I don't have time.

Aaron

[MrCrabby]

These stories come out of a book about Feng Shui(Full name is "Feng Shui, a Practical Guide to Health, Wealth, and Happiness" by Farrington):
Sorry Karen, how do we (or you for that matter) know that these things really happened? Have you talked to these people personally?
I think John's (must) personal testimonies have alot more credibility then what you posted.

[Karen M]

Hello All :)


>>>Off the top of my head....

Here's one that mentions specifically the destruction of the Temple. It was fulfilled in 70 AD by the Roman invasion of Jerusalem .

"1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 'Do you see all these things?' he asked. 'I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.'"
(Matthew 24:1, 2) (NIV)<<<

If the entire city is attacked, that includes the destroying temples doesn't it? Wasn't it normal for Rome to take over cities?



>>>Sorry Karen, how do we (or you for that matter) know that these things really happened? Have you talked to these people personally?
I think John's (must) personal testimonies have alot more credibility then what you posted.<<<

These people supposivly gave their personal testimonies, which was written in this book. Of course, if you don't want to believe them(which I agree they seem kind of far out ;) ), that is fine. On the other hand, now you know one of the reasons why I don't believe the Bible. :)


Karen

[MrCrabby]

These people supposivly gave their personal testimonies, which was written in this book. Of course, if you don't want to believe them(which I agree they seem kind of far out ), that is fine.
Well...it's kind of different when you hear it first-hand.

If these people were to come to me personally, and tell me these things, then i would definately consider them.
But, unless you personally have an experience with Feng Shui or Allah, then i'll continue to be skeptical.:)

[perhaps]

(sorry if someone already posted something like this :))

but some evidence to prove that GOD DOES EXIST is that well...this is gonna be hard for me to explain, but i'll do my best

[ok, this is just ONE small argument (i have forgotten the few i was told from a list)]

ok, well, we humans have i guess what you could call some "instinct" when determining if things could be considered right or wrong

one usually feels some guilt when say, i dunno, stealing something from someone, lying to someone, cheating, murdering a person, etc

why do we feel this guilt??? if we believe that humans evolved from apes, then why do we feel guilty about these things? who determined in the beginning what was to be considered 'right' and what was to be considered 'wrong' if there is no God?

we should have free minds and not worry about law and guilt if there was no God that had made these rules up

why is it that today in society, rules that are not to be broken are somewhat (in general) similar to some laws in the bible? how strikingly odd that for example, murder is considered 'bad' in both

we wouldnt have the rules and laws today if God hadnt set out his original law for mankind to follow. the rules that humans would have made if there was no God would probably be different in some way


well, i tried to explain what i wanted to say as best as i could

i hope you could understand what i was trying to get at, whether you believe it or not :)

[MrCrabby]

if we believe that humans evolved from apes,
Sorry Amanda, the evolutionists are gonna jump on you for this one.
They don't believe that humans evolved from apes, but that humans and apes both evolved from a common predecessor.

[perhaps]

well, the point i was trying to get across anyways was that humans werent created by God (according to non-creationists)

if they believed they evolved from something else, thats fine (if that is what youre saying)

its still the same thing

NOTE: i may use words/phrase that dont EXACTLY fit the meaning i'm trying to get at but i try my best to say what i mean
ex. "I get 'happy' thinking about God." "why are you happy? maybe its only the high that youre feeling and not the true joyfulness"
see, like there i could have used "joyful" or something more suitable, but thats just me...i'm not a thesaurus hehe

but the thesaurus thing didnt have anything to do with what you posted, mark, but i just wanted to make that clear anyways :)

[Karen M]

Hello Perhaps :)


>>>(sorry if someone already posted something like this )

but some evidence to prove that GOD DOES EXIST is that well...this is gonna be hard for me to explain, but i'll do my best

[ok, this is just ONE small argument (i have forgotten the few i was told from a list)]

ok, well, we humans have i guess what you could call some "instinct" when determining if things could be considered right or wrong

one usually feels some guilt when say, i dunno, stealing something from someone, lying to someone, cheating, murdering a person, etc

why do we feel this guilt???<<<

Instinct and empathy :)



>>>if we believe that humans evolved from apes, then why do we feel guilty about these things?<<<

As GF already said, evolution does not say this, but I still get your point.


>>>who determined in the beginning what was to be considered 'right' and what was to be considered 'wrong' if there is no God?<<<

Basically, I believe morality comes from logic, evolutionary instinct, and social contract. I have already explained this on several threads, so if you would like more detail, I can C+P one of my earlier posts for you? :)

I would also warn you that atheism is not an entire belief system in itself, it can simply be a part of a belief system(for example, asking for a complete list of the "beliefs" of atheism is like asking for a complete list of the "beliefs" of everyone who's favorite color is blue). Therefore, my morality may differ from other secular moralities.

>>>we should have free minds and not worry about law and guilt if there was no God that had made these rules up<<<

Wrong. :)


>>>why is it that today in society, rules that are not to be broken are somewhat (in general) similar to some laws in the bible? how strikingly odd that for example, murder is considered 'bad' in both<<<

Because these laws are beneficial to a society in general. Its part of social contract theory, which is basically an agreement that says "I won't hurt you or your family if you don't hurt me or my family."


>>>we wouldnt have the rules and laws today if God hadnt set out his original law for mankind to follow. the rules that humans would have made if there was no God would probably be different in some way<<<

The laws you are refurring to, such as "Don't Murder" and "don't steal" do exist today, and I don't believe God exists. Basically, you can not use things that exist today to prove the existance of a God because, under my point of view, they exist today and God doesn't.



>>>well, the point i was trying to get across anyways was that humans werent created by God (according to non-creationists)<<<

Sorry, but I have said this like 50 times now..:(...: Belief in Evolution does NOT necessitate the lack of belief in a deity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are other religions besides the 3 Jewish-based ones in the world in which Evolution does not contradict their beliefs, and there are is also Theistic Evolution, which are people who believe in one of the three Jewish-based religions AND believe in Evolution(usually they look at Genesis as a large parable and such, but if you want more info on this, I would ask PleasurePain).


Hope that explains my view :)

Karen

[guitarman]

I think what Amanda is trying to say is this. Men are born with a moral instinct of right and wrong. We inherently hurt when someone get's killed - we just know it's wrong to kill people.

Now, there must be absolutes somewhere. Right? I mean, if there weren't, then you could say, "There are no absolutes." But then you have just contradicted your self because that statement in and of itself is an absolute.

Thus, we simply apply that idea to moral absolutes and get the idea that there must be some moral absolute.

Aaron

[guitarman]

Originally posted by Karen M
Because these laws are beneficial to a society in general. Its part of social contract theory, which is basically an agreement that says "I won't hurt you or your family if you don't hurt me or my family."
Not in our society :). Our constitution is based on the Bible. Did ya know that one? ;)


Aaron

[Karen M]

Hello Aaron :)


>>>I think what Amanda is trying to say is this. Men are born with a moral instinct of right and wrong. We inherently hurt when someone get's killed - we just know it's wrong to kill people.<<<

Yes. But I believe this instinct comes from evolution and upbringing. :)


>>>Now, there must be absolutes somewhere. Right?<<<

Not necessarily.


>>>I mean, if there weren't, then you could say, "There are no absolutes." But then you have just contradicted your self because that statement in and of itself is an absolute.<<<

I can say that I believe it is most likely there are no moral absolutes :)


>>>Thus, we simply apply that idea to moral absolutes and get the idea that there must be some moral absolute.<<<

This only works IF there are moral absolutes. I believe people may be able to come up with some universals out of instinct and logic, but not absolutes.



>>>Not in our society . Our constitution is based on the Bible. Did ya know that one?<<<

No, actually it is based on the Enlightenment and Social Contract Theory :) We were rebelling against the devine ruler theory(the belief that the King was appointed by God). In fact, only 3 of the 10 commandments would actually be constitutional:


1. I Am The Lord Thy God; Thou Shalt have no other gods Before Me. -- First Amendment Violation...ignoring the urge to start a new point on the fact that this seems to imply that there are actually more Gods, but you are simply commanded not to worship them...

2. Don't make false Idols---First Amendment Violation and civil liberties violation

3. Thou Shalt Not Take The Name Of The Lord, Thy God, In Vain. -- First Amendment Violation

4. Remember The Sabbath Day, to Keep it Holy. -- First Amendment Violation


5. Thou shalt honor thy Father And Thy Mother -- I'm not even sure how this could be passed into law, but any permutation I can concieve would be an infringement of civil liberties.

6. Thou Shalt Not Murder. -- Already law, and this, stealing, and purgery would also apply under Social Contract. :)

7. Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery. --Already covered by a number of laws concerning divorce, etc., though I don't think the act of adultery, itself, is criminal. Legislating sex partners would fall under a civil liberties violation.

8. Thou Shalt Not Steal. -- Already law.

9. Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness Against Thy Neighbor. -- Already law, in certain forms (slander, libel, purgery, etc.).

10. Thou Shalt Not Covet Thy Neighbor's House. Thou Shalt Not Covet Thy Neighbor's Wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his cattle, nor anything that is thy neighbor's. -- I always find it interesting in a dark humor sort of way how "thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's WIFE"...you know, in there with the house, and the ox, and the rest of the "property"..;)...anyway: Unenforcable, uncontrollable, and violation of civil liberties


You may be thinking of the strict laws in the North that tended to inforce Christian beliefs; those WERE based on Christianity, but for the Constintution, most of it was from the Enlightenment Age.

On the other hand, what really matters right now is where the government is going, not where it came from :)


Hope this clears that up :)

Karen

[Chrysostom]

Hello, Karen :)

>>If the entire city is attacked, that includes the destroying temples doesn't it? Wasn't it normal for Rome to take over cities?<<

Rome already controlled Jerusalem, so it was unlikely for them to attack it. However, they did and, just as Jesus said, they tore down the temple.

i will work on compiling a list and hopefully get back to you by monday (i'm moving to a new dorm room, then driving home, then i have church all sunday!)

>>These people supposivly gave their personal testimonies, which was written in this book. Of course, if you don't want to believe them(which I agree they seem kind of far out ;) ), that is fine. On the other hand, now you know one of the reasons why I don't believe the Bible. :)<<

Can Feng Shui and Christianity not co-exist?

Have a nice weekend... hope to see you soon!

[Bryan]

Karen, I think that believing that everything happened by chance is much more far out than believing the bible to be true. Especially when you look at the mathematical improbability when this happens.

[Karen M]

Hello again Must and Bryan :)



>>>Rome already controlled Jerusalem, so it was unlikely for them to attack it. However, they did and, just as Jesus said, they tore down the temple.<<<

According to the Bible, Jesus said that you mean. :) I think it probably happened in the order of Rome attacked Jerusalem and THEN it got written down later that Jesus must have said that...


>>>Can Feng Shui and Christianity not co-exist?<<<

Sure...why not? :) I guess I'll have to go find some indian culture testimonies also and then you can co-exist with Shar the Rain God too. :D


>>>Karen, I think that believing that everything happened by chance is much more far out than believing the bible to be true. Especially when you look at the mathematical improbability when this happens.<<<

Thank you for your opinion :) I, on the other hand, believe the Bible is extremely unlikely and that it is more likely that we simply do not have enough information to know what happened.


later :)

Karen


Edit: http://www.irr.org/mit/bom/1830bom-testimonies.html Its not Indian, but I still think these are testimonies of people who's beliefs are contradictory to yours, right? If so, then you can't both be correct. ;)

[MrCrabby]

I think it probably happened in the order of Rome attacked Jerusalem and THEN it got written down later that Jesus must have said that...
I think all the most widely accepted dates given for the writings of the gospels come between A.D. 50-70.

It's highly unlikely that they were written after the destruction of Jerusalem.

[Karen M]

Hello GF :)

The dates I heard were between 130 and 170, but perhaps those were fairly late interpretations.

You can claim its most likely that they were written before the distruction and I am still going to claim its most likely they were written after the distruction. I think we are going in circles :)